[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

The ched was closed, and Natsuhi prohibited entering it until the police comes.

...Aside from the damage, that Rosa caused, to free herself from the shed. Did you forget the scene where Kanon went to the shed to get a tool to open the guestroom?

[jTiKey]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

...Aside from the damage, that Rosa caused, to free herself from the shed.

There is no text about Kanon getting the needed tool from the shed. *goes and checks*

EDIT:
Here it is:

[Witch of Uncertainty]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

Kanon ISN"T dead. Nobody killed him. Surely, every humanbeing in the world has an alibi of a crime that didn't happened.

Having an Alibi means you can't make a crime. I'm pretty sure mortally wounding someone is considered a crime. Or?
Not to mention; WHY let Kanon Live? Seems much more complicated to force a drug on someone you tried to kill (Than to just, you know, kill them), just for them to seem dead?
Also, who placed the Letters? "Praise my name" etc.

[jTiKey]

Originally Posted by Witch of Uncertainty

Having an Alibi means you can't make a crime. I'm pretty sure mortally wounding someone is considered a crime. Or?
Not to mention; WHY let Kanon Live? Seems much more complicated to force a drug on someone you tried to kill (Than to just, you know, kill them), just for them to seem dead?
Also, who placed the Letters? "Praise my name" etc.

Stop playing with words. The red truth has the "crime" every living and dead has an alibi: "...the island could have killed Kanon!"

Edit: also, Van Dine's Twenty Rules, Rule #7. It is forbidden to have a crime without a corpse.

Nanjo did.

[Witch of Uncertainty]

I'm confused.
Shooting Kanon is not considered a crime?

And again; Who placed the letters?

Originally Posted by jTiKey

Stop playing with words. The red truth has the "crime" every living and dead has an alibi: "...the island could have killed Kanon!"

Edit: also, Van Dine's Twenty Rules, Rule #7. It is forbidden to have a crime without a corpse.

Nanjo did.

I might have misinterpreted, but didn't Ep7 make a point of Umineko not following Van Dine? Considering Bernkastel crushed and tore him apart during their fight?

[jTiKey]

Originally Posted by Witch of Uncertainty

I'm confused.
Shooting Kanon is not considered a crime?

Van Dine's Twenty Rules, Rule #7. It is forbidden to have a crime without a corpse.

And again; Who placed the letters?

Dr. Nanjo:

Originally Posted by Witch of Uncertainty

I'm confused.
Shooting Kanon is not considered a crime?

And again; Who placed the letters?


I might have misinterpreted, but didn't Ep7 make a point of Umineko not following Van Dine? Considering Bernkastel crushed and tore him apart during their fight?

Rosatrice follow Knox and Dine. If you don't accept them, there is no reason any further discussion.

Rosatrice is the answer to the Mystery side of umineko. Mystery follows Knox' and Dine's rules.

The fact that the Vane Dines Rules were in red even in another case just prooves, that they are truth in Beatrices games, the only place, where red truth exists.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

The fact that the Vane Dines Rules were in red even in another case just prooves, that they are truth in Beatrices games, the only place, where red truth exists.

They were in red in EP7. Why are you using them to solve 1-4 if you can't use the name Yasu that also first appeared in EP7?

[haguruma]

Just to hammer another nail into the coffin of your Rosatrice:

Before the murder of Dr. Nanjo, Kinzo, Krauss, Natsuhi, Hideyoshi, Rudolph, Kyrie, Rosa, Maria, George, Gohda, Kumasawa, Genji, Shannon and Kanon are already dead! (EP8 manga)

Also, if you are intent on using Van Dine, then it is either always Rosa or always George, since Rule#12 It is forbidden for there to be more than one true culprit.

Also, the manga added another rule in Umineko wording: Rule#16 One must not insert depictions that are not necessary for the story.

[Witch of Uncertainty]

What about
Rule #1
It is forbidden to have a crime without all clues presented.
Was there ever any hint of Rosa getting out of the Shed? Or doesn't that count?
I also don't think any sort of drugs were forshadowed here, but I might be remembering wrong.

Rule #16
It is forbidden for there to be unneeded details that have nothing to do with deduction.
Isn't ep 4, 5 and especially 7 filled with lots of unnecessary information in order to deduct to tale?

Also, what about ep 5 and 6 where Rosa dies?
After Rosa's death, her corpse was never moved! (5)
USELESS. Rosa and Maria can't save him EITHER. ......DEATHDEATHDEATHDEATH (6)
[So, I dashed all over the mansion, visited all the crime scenes, and......] I re-killed all of them. (6)

How does she wiggle out of that one?

[jTiKey]

They were in red in EP7. Why are you using them to solve 1-4 if you can't use the name Yasu that also first appeared in EP7?

I have no issue with the definition of crime. Crime is a general term that is used im murder mysteries, and it is common knowlenge. Dine and Knox are also common knowledge, that every person that reads detective novels should know. Also, Beatrice did talk about them herself, and there is a notice about them at the beggining of the 2 EP opening.
If you try to solve a detective mystery without Knox and Dine, it's like trying to solve math without knowing numbers.

Yasu isn't common knowledge. It's something that MUST be told, or the reader would never know about it.

Before the murder of Dr. Nanjo, Kinzo, Krauss, Natsuhi, Hideyoshi, Rudolph, Kyrie, Rosa, Maria, George, Gohda, Kumasawa, Genji, Shannon and Kanon are already dead! (EP8 manga)

Screenshot please.

Also, if you are intent on using Van Dine, then it is either always Rosa or always George, since Rule#12 It is forbidden for there to be more than one true culprit.

12. There must be but one culprit, no matter how many murders are committed. The culprit may, of course, have a minor helper or co-plotter; but the entire onus must rest on one pair of shoulders: the entire indignation of the reader must be permitted to concentrate on a single black nature.

Rosa is the boss. George does what she says. They are a team, that manage the same mass murder.

manga added another

I'm happy for the manga. But I can't see the manga.
But #16 is good with umineko. the game ended on EP6. After that we got no mystery anymore. No detective = no mystery.

It is forbidden to have a crime without all clues presented.

There is a thing like common knowledge. It isn't nessesery to the author to write that the character do breathe. Every common adoult could open a shed with tools (Battle did), so there is no contradiction. This is how mystery novels work. You need to use your own brain to find ways, how it would be naturaly done.

It is forbidden for there to be unneeded details that have nothing to do with deduction.

answer is higher

After Rosa's death, her corpse was never moved!

She dies at the explosion.
Even Lambda said, that the alibi of all peoples that were in the cousins room don't have alibies anymore.
So, only the one in that room could be the culprits of the EP5 crime. Reread the end of EP5.

After Rosa's death, her corpse was never moved! (5)
USELESS. Rosa and Maria can't save him EITHER. ......DEATHDEATHDEATHDEATH (6)

I see you don't know the novel well.
The 1st red is from EP5, and the 2nd is from EP6

[musouka]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

I have no issue with the definition of crime. Crime is a general term that is used im murder mysteries, and it is common knowlenge. Dine and Knox are also common knowledge, that every person that reads detective novels should know. Also, Beatrice did talk about them herself, and there is a notice about them at the beggining of the 2 EP opening.
If you try to solve a detective mystery without Knox and Dine, it's like trying to solve math without knowing numbers.

They were mentioned, but they weren't in red. Isn't that why you threw out all the information regarding Yasu? It wasn't in red? So therefore you can't use Knox or Dine until the answer arcs, according to your logic.

Originally Posted by jTiKey

Yasu isn't common knowledge. It's something that MUST be told, or the reader would never know about it.

Yasu is a nickname of Yasuda Sayo's. Sayo is introduced as a character in the first few episodes.

[jTiKey]

They were mentioned, but they weren't in red. Isn't that why you threw out all the information regarding Yasu? It wasn't in red? So therefore you can't use Knox or Dine until the answer arcs, according to your logic.

White text is good. Until there is a red truth that says otherwise.

Yasu is a nickname of Yasuda Sayo's. Sayo is introduced as a character in the first few episodes.
__________________

Screenshot please, with a proof.

There are screenshot of Shannon\George saying about Shannon's read name... But where is anything like that about Yasu?
If you have a screenshot, where Yasu says "My name is Sayo\Yasuda\Shannon\Kanon" or any of them saying "My name is Yasu" I'm hapily giving you the victory.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

Screenshot please.

[jTiKey]

Originally Posted by haguruma

I'll wait for the translation. I'll answer you after that.

EDIT: omg Will looks ugly >_>

[musouka]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

There are screenshot of Shannon\George saying about Shannon's read name... But where is anything like that about Yasu?
If you have a screenshot, where Yasu says "My name is Sayo\Yasuda\Shannon\Kanon" or any of them saying "My name is Yasu" I'm hapily giving you the victory.

The EP8 manga mentions that Kanon and Shannon share a single body. Like you said, a mystery requires thinking, so it shouldn't be hard to put 1+1 together.

[jTiKey]

Originally Posted by musouka

The EP8 manga mentions that Kanon and Shannon share a single body. Like you said, a mystery requires thinking, so it shouldn't be hard to put 1+1 together.

I hope so. I really want to see all these mysterious shkannon proofs.

EDIT: Even of they share a body, that doesn't prove any connection to Yasu.

[Higurashi-Z]

I don't know much about rosatrice theory but in the link that you posted there was some strange things. In the 4th twilight, how rosa knew where kinzo's corpse is hidden? I always thought that after kinzo's death Genji hid his corpse where no one could find ... Rosa would need to know the place so she could get his corpse and throw his corpse in the furnace. And I don't believe that krauss and Natsuhi would trust Nanjo and Kumasawa enough to say something about this... So I think that only Natsuhi, Krauss and Genji know about the localization of kinzo's corpse...

[musouka]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

I hope so. I really want to see all these mysterious shkannon proofs

[GreyZone]

jTiKey, if you think Van Dine applies, then there is still the issue of "there is one culprit" not two, or three, but ONE.

[jTiKey]

I don't know much about rosatrice theory but in the link that you posted there was some strange things. In the 4th twilight, how rosa knew where kinzo's corpse is hidden? I always thought that after kinzo's death Genji hid his corpse where no one could find ... Rosa would need to know the place so she could get his corpse and throw his corpse in the furnace. And I don't believe that krauss and Natsuhi would trust Nanjo and Kumasawa enough to say something about this... So I think that only Natsuhi, Krauss and Genji know about the localization of kinzo's corpse...

She is the Ushiromiya head that has all the gold, and knows that Kinzo died and where he is.

screenshots

Shkannon is implied in the story, but it is a lie.
Ryu liked the idea of kanon and shannon having one body. So he made a big story about it. Red doesn't support shkannon. There cannot be any kind of those creatures in a detective novel. But he likes saying something in red, and them making a story otherwise =D

There are 3 truth in umineko. 2 are told and one must everyone find alone.

"there is one culprit"

You surely miss the accomplice part.