2012-02-01, 00:03 | Link #27481 |
The True Culprit
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Hey, I'm not the one who threw the word 'kidnapping' into there. :P
But in all seriousness, I'm aware of that, but if Ikuko is Yasu, and everything we know about their relationship is otherwise true, and Toya doesn't know that Ikuko and Yasu are the same person... Things get REALLY fucked up in a way that isn't very morally defensible. And if he DOES know she's Yasu, when did he figure that out? Why is she putting him through the torment of struggling to remember if he was there? Why doesn't Ange get to know? And on and on. It's just not a very elegant theory to me. From my perspective, all it does is draw Ikuko into the Witch Hunter-esque rumor mill web Ryukishi apparently wants to discourage.
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2012-02-01, 00:18 | Link #27482 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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In my case I don't beleive in the Ikuko = Yasu theory because it just doesn't seem to have much evidence backing it. And it doesn't really add anything to the story for me.
Aside from the hint from the Kanji in her name, but that's not a very strong hint to me. I would be very underwhelmed if Ryukishi suddenly revealed that was the truth. Especially with everything he's said to make Beatrice into a tragic character in his interviews.
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2012-02-01, 01:37 | Link #27483 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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But I we post that often now it seems, so the links just disappear for several pages. It would be nice if we could find a place to stick the theories once and for all... |
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2012-02-01, 04:09 | Link #27484 | |||||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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Basically each name uses, or implies the use of, the same two kanji, just with different readings. Quote:
By the way, I think EP4's 1998 is written fiction as AT does. In fact, as far as I know I was the first on the forum to propose the idea, Quote:
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But since AT is a big Yasu fan I can appreciate why he is so opposed to it. On the other hand I think there are sympathetic possibilities too. After all, what's good for Battler is bad for Touya and probably vice versa. How's a Yasu-Ikuko supposed to rightly deal with that? |
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2012-02-01, 04:48 | Link #27485 | ||
The True Culprit
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2012-02-01, 05:10 | Link #27486 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Frankly, the only way I could see her actions as sinister is if she isn't Yasu, because in that case she doesn't have an excuse for picking him up and adopting him. See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. How did you get from "didn't take him to a hospital when she first found him" to "never took him to a doctor or let him go to a doctor in 40 years"?
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2012-02-01, 08:09 | Link #27487 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
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Not meaning to do any harm here, but I always feel the morality of the story is kinda fucked up if Yasu survived, getting famous and probably money from (helping) to write forgery about the incident she's at least partly responsible for. The situation of Beatrice/Shanon/Kanon is pretty much described as "dead or alive" problem, so if she's survived...and we just used the "personality death" excuse...it's a very cheap ending. It ruined the Beatrice's death scene to me.
Never mind all the teasing by Featherine to Ange in EP 7... But I guess it depends on your interpretation of the story and morality too. However, I would at least pick up Ryukishi advice "making truth out of your love" and believe that Yasu had already died on the island or otherwise drowning in the ocean. On the other hand, I have one question that I have been wondering, how much is Jessica aware of Yasu situation? Geogre, probably...not at all, judging from his "marriage and children" dream. But Jessica? She grew up with Yasu so it's just hard to believe that she did not know the truth. Jessica is not written as the most observant person (she did not even notice her grandfather is gone and all for two years), but that's kinda too much for me to accept. I only have some theory about this, please feel free to correct me. 1. Jessica is simply that dumb. 2. Jessica is aware of Yasu problem, and she's a closet lesbian, or honestly believe Yasu is actually a man. 3. There's no Shanon/Kanon in reality. They are just characters in the story. Jessica does not love Yasu, or at least not in the same way, but for some reason Yasu decided to write the story that way. |
2012-02-01, 08:55 | Link #27488 | |
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Join Date: Nov 2011
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Personally, I tend to believe Yasu seriously fools most of the cast, incredibly difficult as it is, because stuff doesn't make much sense otherwise. |
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2012-02-01, 09:11 | Link #27489 | ||||||||||
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Join Date: Dec 2011
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It's true that, since there are no crimes, there's obviously no need for Ange to find the Mystery side of the story. But from my perspective, this simply means that BATTLER now only has to write one story instead of two. Quote:
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After this, she goes and takes him in after he got into an accident, hiring doctors to care for him in secret and establishing a new identity for him, which, whether he had lost his memories or not, would have still been a great act of kindness due to how survivors and relatives are constantly hounded by the media and the Witch Hunters. Not only that but how is it her fault that he ended up crippled with brain damage? We have absolutely no reason to believe that it is her fault, and every reason to believe that it's not her fault. After all, why would she do this? She has no motive at all. Also, he was not a prisoner. He was simply recovering at her house, and decided to stay there because for him, that was home. When I said that she kidnapped him, that was referring to how she picked him up off the streets and took him in secretly... But I hadn't meant it in a sinister way or anything like that. I said that because there is a motif of "kidnapping" the one you love, which is only ever meant in a romantic way. We have no reason to believe that she was exploiting him for personal satisfaction. If she's Yasuda, then obviously, she loves him. Yes, she wants to be known, she wants to be understood, and she wants to be loved, but selfish desires are not inherently evil. All humans have at least some selfish desires of their own. If they don't, I just can't see them as being human. Lastly, isn't it actually a good thing if she kept her secret from him? That would mean that, even though she wanted him to know who she was, she saw how terrified he was of Ange even after regaining his memories, and how he had become a cripple after nearly dying just for regaining his memories in the first place, and so she put his health above her emotional needs. I think that even Renall would agree that this is good. All in all, in my opinion Ikuko=Yasuda is a very elegant theory. Quote:
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(for some reason, I was under the impression that cursing was frowned upon here, but I now understand that this is not the case) Quote:
She wants him to remember because she wants him to know who she is, to know about the promise, etc. But does that necessarily mean that she is antagonizing him like Meta!Beatrice did to Meta!Battler? No, not at all. Rather, the fact that he was beginning to get back his memories probably made him think that Battler is the one antagonizing him. What good would it do Ange even if Ikuko went up to her and said "Hi, I'm Yasuda"? Again, she was 5 when she last met Yasuda, and wasn't known to be particularly good friends with her. I really don't think she'd care, and even if Yasuda said "hey, I'm the culprit" would Ange really believe that? Even if she did believe it, are you sure that Yasuda is the culprit? According to your theories she's not the culprit at all, as far as I can tell. Also, the fact remains that Yasuda wrote the first two message bottles, and is implied to be interested in covering up the Truth or at least painting herself as the culprit, whether or not she really believes that, so there's that. But even so, she is still different from the Witch Hunters because those people don't really know the Truth and are just imposing their preferred truths on it for fun. No. After all, she hired plenty of good doctors to come care for him AND paid them to keep their mouths shut, which is even better because it allows his identity to be kept secret, so that he can live in peace. The final scene is Tohya becoming Tohya+Battler, and understanding that Yasuda has been by his side the whole time. It's also the only possible way to have a happy ending for YasudaxBattler. |
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2012-02-01, 09:17 | Link #27490 | |
Senior Member
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2012-02-01, 09:52 | Link #27491 | |||
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Join Date: Dec 2011
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Also I don't think it's a cheap ending at all. Death doesn't have to be physical to be significant. In fact, I think it's one of the only ways to make the ending really meaningful. Quote:
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Sexual orientation isn't part of the problem here, in my opinion, because I see Yasuda as neither male nor female. In short, I guess you could say something cheesy like "love transcends gender" or something. |
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2012-02-01, 09:59 | Link #27492 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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Featherine struck a wager with Lambdadelta that she could create a man who could create a world. Believing such a thing to be unlikely, Lambda took the bet. Featherine created a homonculus, a tabula rasa whom she named Hachijou Tohya, and generates the illusion of Ikuko and her home. Confined there, Tohya falsely believes in the existence of an external reality while Ikuko presents to him "stories" of a nonexistent Ushiromiya family which draws his interest and brings him into conflict with the "witch" in the stories. Bernkastel arrives at this point to spectate and help develop the character of Beatrice.
Tohya begins to develop a sympathetic collection to Ushiromiya Battler, slowly coming to believe that he "was" him, and begins to "remember" being a person who never actually existed. He takes over the role of writer using his "connection" to the characters, developing especially the characters of Battler and Beatrice. All embellishments of characters are actually true, but only become so retroactively as Tohya invents/"remembers" ways they distinguished themselves from stock tropes. He also both discovers/invents and rejects Shkanon, creating independent meta-existences for Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice. Which are real, because the Meta-World is the only actual reality. Yasu, therefore, is just a fiction of convenience to explain away a "real world" and a narrative technique from the stories that doesn't actually exist either (although he changes his mind later, apparently). Eventually, Battler/Beatrice themselves ascend to an independent meta-existence and liberate the creations of the witches from their originator, Tohya, an unexpected development for the witches (but possibly intended by Tohya-as-creator). Bern, who wasn't aware of the original bet, fights this; Lambda, who has come to enjoy the characters in her typical way, decides to play the spoiler on their side. Either way, Featherine wins the bet: Tohya created an entire suite of developed existences from a simple murder story, and they grew so powerful they could no longer be controlled by the witches. Ange is, of course, a purely fictional construct generated by Tohya based on the imagined life of a character who never actually existed at all before he came up with her. 18-year-old Ange existed before 6-year-old Ange did. Originally, she was just referential backstory. Tohya feels guilty about it because she wasn't suffering until he created her for that purpose, and he didn't at the time realize what he was capable of or that there was no "reality" in which Ange really existed. Tohya then either yields to becoming part of BATTLER or the two separate fully as Tohya comes to realize he isn't actually Battler. Then he dies, or maybe he doesn't. And they would've gotten away with it, if it hadn't been for you meddling kids! Spoiler:
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2012-02-01, 10:52 | Link #27493 | |
Senior Member
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2012-02-01, 13:03 | Link #27498 | |||||||||||||||||
The True Culprit
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I don't suppose you've read Kinjo's Forgeries of the Golden Witch. I'd recommend them, they'll make my premise make more sense. Quote:
Also, Battler is the Territory Lord. He can change the premise if he fuckin' wants to, right? Quote:
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If she's not evil, she is extremely negligent to the point that she is inadvertently dealing him extreme psychological harm without meaning to do so. The theory is not elegant. Elegant literary interpretation requires as little fancruft and textless speculation as possible, and Ikuko!Yasu requires much, much assumptions and personal fanfiction. Quote:
In any case, Chick!Beato refers to the blank "Zero" Beatrice, so the term is really confusing when you use it outside of that. Quote:
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But if you're going to have Ange and Battler meet, might as well have Ikuko be like "Also I'm Shannon" or something. Quote:
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2012-02-01, 13:10 | Link #27499 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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The best part about it is, I can just deny absolutely everything that could possibly contradict it as a cruel illusion played upon Tohya by uncaring forces, or a thing of Tohya's own creation in a reality where thought is made manifest. Thanks, solipsism! By eliminating all other options as the work of unreliable Cartesian Demons, you win again!
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2012-02-01, 13:25 | Link #27500 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Speaking of years later, Tohya was the one who started researching the incident and messing around with the message bottles, right? On the internet. He's not a captive audience, he's the one driving the process, and he started it years after the incident without any prompting from Ikuko.
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