2012-01-30, 02:24 | Link #27421 | ||
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Furthermore, as far as I can remember, Ikuko had not published ANY manuscripts prior to meeting Tohya. There is also no evidence of her supposed family's existence, as Tohya never met them. Quote:
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2012-01-30, 03:28 | Link #27423 | ||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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As for me, based on the way that Erika uses it I say that Detective's Authority is a tool used from the Meta-World to permit the Player some more control over the Game Board's narrative. This is a post of mine from a few days ago. It's what I'm basing my current theory on. Spoiler for length:
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I'm not going to tolerate this any more, and that's why I'm being a dick to you. Deal with it as you will. I've seen it this way before, too. Although Ange gives "Hachijou Touya" credit for End in EP6. What do you think that's about? |
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2012-01-30, 03:46 | Link #27424 | |
The True Culprit
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The common denominator between all your unpleasant arguments is You. Renall, and atleast Jan-Poo in one instance, have also called you out on logical fallacies and personal insults and jabs. If you're not willing to have a civil and polite discussion with me, that's your fault, not mine.
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2012-01-30, 05:28 | Link #27425 | ||||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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2012-01-30, 07:18 | Link #27426 |
Ordinary Magician
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Gensokyo
Age: 31
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I really think that you should all confirm your theories or statements before you post them here. Try rereading the novels. I was led astray many times when members declare a statement as fact. Like the one with Ikuko having published stories before meeting with Battler. Which led me to almost drop the YasuIkuko theory. However I reread the novel and it turned out to be false. That's slightly annoying.
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2012-01-30, 08:15 | Link #27427 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
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Just wanted to say, you've actually said a lot of cool stuff. While I don't necessarily agree with all of it, I do find that you end up saying a lot of stuff that just needs to be said. I don't really think that you've done anything wrong. Quote:
The first time I argued my theory, we went off on some kind of tangent, and I couldn't figure out what you guys were trying to say in your counter-arguments, and it was apparently rejected. I had nearly given up on arguing about it, because every time I asked for details or evidence I was pretty much ignored by both you and Renall. All I could figure out was that it had somehow invalidated Erika's reliable perspective. And this time, even though I used a lot of the same arguments, it was apparently decided that it did not invalidate Erika's reliable perspective. Though, granted, you said it was baseless and useless and a bunch of other stuff. But that's basically your opinion... And you never said that it didn't work, which is good enough for me I guess. |
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2012-01-30, 12:38 | Link #27428 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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--- Regarding the parlor question, here are my two cents. I'll try to keep it brief. Kealym's solution, that Kanon had his own body in EP5, has three important properties:
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2012-01-30, 13:48 | Link #27429 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
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Also, "counting furniture as people" isn't really what this is, is it? Sure, Kanon is being counted as a separate person, but that's because he has his own human body now and can act independently and at the same time as Shannon. Additionally, while Piece!Erika has no reason to believe that everyone is present... I think that Meta!Erika does. Unless those Red Truths were only given during the retelling and she never heard them. If Meta!Erika does have reason to believe that everyone is present in that room, though, then she should direct her Piece to confirm exactly who is in the room and who is not. I suppose you're right about the accusation scene, though. That does make it more difficult. The only theories I can come up with for that at the moment involve Kanon is behind Gohda so... Well, I mean, unless Kanon has his own body in EP5. |
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2012-01-30, 14:02 | Link #27430 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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"Counting furniture as people" concerns the statement that the number of people on the island is the same as in previous games. In order to make this work out, the "number of people" for the previous games must count Shannon and Kanon separately despite them sharing a body. However, this is a legal move because Beato counted the victims of the 1st twilight in EP3 as "six people". That move by Beato demonstrates that the restriction of "number of people" to "number of bodies" only applied to statements made after Erika requested that clarification in EP6, so freely varying the interpretation was possible for the previous games.
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2012-01-30, 15:04 | Link #27431 | |||||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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But I still feel that the introduction scene and the Reds surrounding it are unnaturally suspicious. Add the fact that Battler's perspective is unreliable and for the first time he starts seeing Kanon and Shannon together; it really begins to seem like Battler sees Kanon and Shannon together because his perspective is unreliable. Quote:
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We know from EP6 with BATTLER's trick answer to Erika's "everyone else is in the cousins' room" question that Kanon doesn't count as a person when Shannon is "active". The love duel especially supports this. Thus even though Kanon and Shannon can each be "dead" "people" at the same time, they can never both be counted as "people on the island" at the same time. That's the way I see it. Last edited by Wanderer; 2012-01-30 at 15:32. Reason: grammar |
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2012-01-30, 15:51 | Link #27433 | ||
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
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But counting them as different poeple in itself is a valid red truth, including Kinzo. In EP3 it was said: "6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!" Quote:
It is possible, that she was already preparing a new identity as Hachijou Ikuko back then. And she also tried to be an author. Her lack of confidence is also reflected in the scene, where Ikuko doesn't want to publish her stories, which is fitting Yasuda's character. Last edited by GreyZone; 2012-01-30 at 16:25. |
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2012-01-30, 16:48 | Link #27434 |
Zero of the roulette
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 30
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If End is originally a story made by Witch Hunters, that would explain why it's a replay of a game Battler didn't participate in on it's original run.
Perhaps in the forgery on which End was based on, the writer believed Natsuhi was the culprit. They added in Erika after hearing about her accident, as an avatar of themselves solving the case. We can attribute this to Bernkastel actually, as she says she "added herself on the gameboard as a piece". Bernkastel is implied to be a collective voice of the Witch Hunters as well. If you want to believe in the "everything is Meta" -theory, the Witch Hunter/player/forger/whatever could just be Bernkastel. But Lambdadelta was the Gamemaster, not Bernkastel. So maybe the product that catched Tohya/Ikuko's interest was a discussion between two parties, rather than a simple writing. Lambda is implied to know the truth however... If Ikuko=Yasu, maybe she used another false name on the internet. Maybe Ryukishi07 was doing this himself? I don't know. Anyway, back to Erika. Maybe the Piece-Erika in End is like Battler in Legend. After that game was finished, she ascended to Meta, like Battler. Another parallel to the first question arc in the first core arc sounds plausible. My theory is this:
I think this is thematically very consistent with EP5, and gives some insight into how the gameboard works as well. Come to think of it, maybe Beatrice's death has to do with her accepting the Natsuhi culprit theory as the final answer to her mystery, because she couldn't wait for Battler to arrive at the right solution anymore. That's why Erika became a Witch of Truth, until she was deprived of that when Battler finally found the truth. About Ikuko=Yasu, as people have said before me, the two years we didn't see and the huge pile of gold she owns might have enabled Yasuda to create a fake identity. Maybe her game on Rokkenjima also served as some kind of funeral for Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice, if she couldn't go with any the cousins. And what stops her from having written a lot of those unpublished manuscripts during the six years before the incident? |
2012-01-30, 17:44 | Link #27435 | |
The True Culprit
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2012-01-30, 17:54 | Link #27436 |
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
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It was never stated how many manuscripts exist exactly. It could have been 3000, 300 or just 30.
Also, as Bluemail stated, there is still the possibility that she already started much earlier with the manuscripts and later let them be transported by Genji to her... "future home". She did have her own room and EP7 showed her interest for mystery books (which she had earlier already though, when she shared and discussed them with Battler). So who would stop her from trying to write manuscripts? |
2012-01-30, 18:03 | Link #27437 |
The True Culprit
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It just stretches my suspension of disbelief. Ikuko and Yasu don't really have anything in common aside from a name pun, to me.
And if her Ikuko identity was created like two years before the incident, why does her name translate to "19"?
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2012-01-30, 18:29 | Link #27438 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Also, "19" is a significant number to Yasu in another way. In her mysteries, Beatrice is the mysterious 19th person, right?
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2012-01-30, 20:04 | Link #27439 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
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Also, Touya doesn't have anything in common with Battler. At all. That's because it's very blatantly said that Touya is not Battler. He just has Battler's body and eventually his memories. I also think Ryukishi was pulling in Alexandre Dumas (if you've read Count of Monte Cristo, I'm referring to how in a very literary sense, Edmond Dantes dies when he jumps into the ocean, though his body and mind still very much exist, he's just a completely demented person.) I think Battler and Yasu died, but what was leftover of them wrote and sorted out the tales after it all happened quite conveniently so we, the readers, did not have to. I'm kinda just throwing my shit for each episode out as a response. (this is from memory of when I first sorted this all out one day while doodling in calc, so it'll be a little fuzzy. Point out shit to me and shove shit I don't get in my face. Please. This is basically how Ikuko=Yasu applies to the games. If this is what other people think, well I didn't see it on the last page and that's about how not lazy I am to look for it or think of a word that means not lazy.) (I also tend to get silly, but not while making my point any less.) Episode 1's pretty easy explanations are that Yasu was the culprit with the servant's help. Ikuko probably thought "Oh well bippity doppy dooda I probably went and killed everyone, huh? Sucks for me lol I'ma write it as a confession." And at the end of writing it and makin' it all famous under the name of Ushiromiya Maria, she finds Touya, picks him up, dusts him off, talks to him about Ep1 and he's all like "wtf man, no" I think Touya actually understood Legend as a mystery book, solved it with Yasu and refused to accept that. And he says that Ikuko is wrong so she's gonna make another manuscript and he's gonna offer his input. Quick Magicese-to Real translation "This means magic did it!"- Yasu was the culprit. "I refuse to believe that." - Touya cannot believe Yasu did it for reasons he's not positive about. I honestly don't remember what bullshit I thought up for Episode 2. But Ep3, as I said before and will now restate, is Battler bein' all "oh well herpy derp lookat me! Eva is the culprit because she is alive. Take that. Zippaty doo" but is unable to make a fully convincing argument in even this. I mean, come on. He said zippaty doo. Episode 4 is Touya actually slowly starting to regain his memories and make more clueless conjecture that starts to be right. Ikuko starts to become extremely distraught with how Touya is so disconnected from Battler that she asks him if he even remembers the promise he never kept, which the amnesiac Battler does not. (He remembers confessing to Shannon at one point, but never that it was such a weighty ordeal. His mind could only recall the events, but he wasn't Battler so he didn't know the importance of them. Episode 5 is Battler giving up on finding any truth and sitting most of the writing out. However, I think Erika is actually supposed to represent Ange to an extent, or really just anyone obsessed with finding the truth of Rokkenjima no matter what. Once episode 5 is almost done, Touya gains Battler's memories and tells the real world equivalent of Erika in some form or another that if they think they've got it all figured out by figuring out one culprit, he'll do it just as easily by naming another possible culprit. (I also think this could be symbolic Battler kinda trying to get Ange to ease away from figuring things out, as Touya does not want to be figured out by Ange.) Basically, I think his memories came with him believing that he was a culprit and so then he made the jumbly garbly Episode 6 where not many people die or whatever. I think Episode 6 is him writing a story with Ikuko to give himself closure and convince himself that neither he nor Yasu are the culprit. Towards the end of the book's making, Ikuko is as convinced by the whole shebang that she helps the Battler in Touya reach that end. Episode 7, however, is Touya really starting to not believe that he is Battler, but just has Battler's memories. (Basically Touya is Will, but Battler is not.) So Touya takes on the whole tale from a very objective point of view, pretty much making clear sense out of anything he feels like. I never really applied this to Episode 8 (I sorta lost interest in analyzing this series after I read Episode 8, for some reason.) Anyone who thinks I'm dumb as shit, please tell me and I will respond. If you think otherwise, great. Edit because I forgot: Also, Clair and her stories about growing up as Yasu is actually really sad if Will is Touya, because that would mean Ikuko was spilling her guts to Touya and Touya couldn't really care more than feel sorry for her. |
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2012-01-30, 21:22 | Link #27440 | |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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At the time the next room over was sealed, Hideyoshi, George, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Nanjo were in it. And, the number of people in the next room over was five. No one existed there except for those to whom those five names referred! All people can only use their own names!! And since everyone else was in the cousins' room, that means Kanon did not exist at all at the time, or at least did not exist as a countable person. This is why I think ShKanon never counts as two living people and never has. At any given time Yasu is either Shannon, Kanon, or neither; she's never both. Of course you can just say that ShKanon can just count as 1 or 2 people as the the Red-speaker desires. But my interpretation is logically consistent and keeps the Red Truth tighter. |
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