Aquarion EVOL - Episode 25 Discussion / Poll

[Zuul]

Originally Posted by Gohan78

IMHO the problem with EVOL's main couple is that all their good romantic scenes (the date during the "Love Training", the Skyes of Aquaria screening) happened in the first half of the show. Then the story focused on the secondary pairings (Jin/Yunoha, Andy/MIX) while Amata/Mikono didn't get any more development. Their relationship was basically put on hold for plot reasons and I blame the writers for this.
However we shouldn't forget that those interactions did happen and they validate Amata and Mikono's love.


.

I don't think I would have liked more AmataxMikono. Most of their interactions were absolutely awful. Passive agressive Mikono x Miserable Amata.

All for the sake of finally getting : "I know Mikono is shit but I still like her." I think we were all supposed to go dawwwwwwwwwww about his grand confession. It didn't work on me at least.

It didn't help that the few good points Amata brought about Mikono, the show did totally fail at convincing they were true.

To me the whole thing fell flat.

[frubam]

I could barely tolerate Zessi getting the short end of the stick for most of the series, but when she 'gave her life' to save Amata from that rubble, with a goodbye kiss to boot, and he didn't mention her once since then, that totally pissed me off >=0[! The first thing he should have did when he got his vector was to try and save her(Zessi); but instead he goes to fight Kagura over his parents, which quickly turns to a battle for Mikono.

The only good relationship that came out of this series is Andy and Mix. They were developed moreso than any other couple in the series. I gotta say, Andy declaring that it didn't matter if Mix was a boy or girl was a pretty good indicator of how strong his feelings were and how far he'll go for his love. Amata could learn something from him.

And if Mikono is the pure incarnation of Celiane/Sylvia, then who the hell is Zessica? Why let her have images of the past in the mirror as if she was an important char? Ah F it, one more episode, and this series is done. I can't wait until it's finished >=0[.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Vena

They just fought about, again, as if she's a prize to be won.

A theme not all that different from the first Aquarion and is found in most romance story themes.

It doesn't matter how well written the female character is, how well written the relationships are, ultimately they boil down to men trying to "win" the girl (as if she's a trophy to claim). Even in all of the weak male lead driven harem stories, where women are falling all over the one guy, it's about him getting them, not the other way around.

Some break that mold, and show mutual development or the female chasing and getting the guy, but that's rare. And in many cases the "third wheel" (male or female, doesn't matter) is left to suffer the wreckage of seeing the one they love falling for someone else even when the story has clearly established that the main pair are sticking together (so you get stupid stuff like "let's be love rivals and friends!" even when the audience already knows what will likely happen).

So I'm not really surprised Zessica has gotten the short end of the stick for the whole series. The only thing I'm surprised at is the writing building her up and intentionally kicking her while she's down. There's just no point to it except to piss fans off.

[bastek66]

Originally Posted by frubam

And if Mikono is the pure incarnation of Celiane/Sylvia, then who the hell is Zessica?

No one or Touma, but most likely first option.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Solace

A theme not all that different from the first Aquarion and is found in most romance story themes.

Honestly, I really have to disagree with that.

I can think of plenty of romance stories in anime where the male lead does not treat the girl as "a trophy to be claimed", whatsoever.

Does Kyon treat either of the girls in Haruhi's anime as a trophy to be claimed?

Does Ryuji treat either of the girls in Toradora as a trophy to be claimed?

Does Kazehaya treat either of the girls in Kimi no Todoke as a trophy to be claimed?

Does Okabe treat either of the girls in Steins;Gate as a trophy to be claimed?

Does Tomoya in Clannad treat either of the girls in Clannad as a trophy to be claimed?

Does Sakai Yuji treat either of the girls in Shana's anime as a trophy to be claimed? (if anything, Shana is a case where the focus tends to be on the female characters trying to win over an often passive Yuji )


And honestly, that's just six examples right off the top of my head. I could go on and on.

What Vena is criticizing with the handling of Amata/Mikono/Kagura isn't as commonplace in anime as you're suggesting. Amata and Kagura are literally fighting tooth and nail over Mikono without even asking her who she likes best between them. It's this presumptive approach on Amata and Kagura's part, coupled with Mikono's own indecisiveness, that gives the whole thing the feel that Vena is talking about.

It doesn't matter how well written the female character is, how well written the relationships are, ultimately they boil down to men trying to "win" the girl (as if she's a trophy to claim).

I hope you're not equating "win her as a trophy to claim" with just simple romantic courtship. There's absolutely nothing wrong with romantic courtship. But the Amata/Mikono/Kagura fight goes beyond simple romantic courtship.

So I'm not really surprised Zessica has gotten the short end of the stick for the whole series. The only thing I'm surprised at is the writing building her up and intentionally kicking her while she's down. There's just no point to it except to piss fans off.

I agree with you here, although I don't think the intention is to troll the audience. It's just that the writing is so bad they're accomplishing it anyway.

[Zuul]

^ According to the director the ending is not supposed to let people with a bitter aftertaste. So yes, they are not intentionnally trolling us.

For the longest time I have been giving the authors a lot of credit, thinking it caouldn't be that bad, that it was intentional, that it was a deconstruction or something like that.
The way Izumo and Alicia's death was handled did open my eyes. Even though we know that the storyboard dude responsible of it was scolded by the director over it.

[C.A.]

According to those interview translations I read on another thread, Kawamori said that he wanted to see what kind of reactions people would have when they know that Apollo and reincarnations are Pollon all the while.

That sounds to me like he wasn't writing to invoke a specific reaction, but to cause audience to react completely different to the whole story. In other words, he was trolling.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Zuul

^ According to the director the ending is not supposed to let people with a bitter aftertaste.

It was that precise statement that (after I thought about it) made it clear to me that this wasn't a deconstruction, as much as I was hoping it was.

With a deconstruction, you can't afford to put top priority on pleasing your audience (i.e. not leaving them with a bitter aftertaste). Deconstruction is very risky, usually it'll piss some people off (fan reaction to NGE, especially End of Eva, instantly comes to mind).

Originally Posted by C.A.

That sounds to me like he wasn't writing to invoke a specific reaction,

Then it's not trolling, imo.

Trolling is about writing to upset your audience. To make them feel anger towards a certain character or plot event/reveal.

[Vena]

Don't worry, I won't bite.

Originally Posted by Gohan78

However we shouldn't forget that those interactions did happen and they validate Amata and Mikono's love.

The problem with the key interactions, particular the date in the sky, is that they were always (or almost always) Amata chasing Mikono or Amata doing something. This is, peculiarly enough, no different from how Kagura has been written into the plot: he's always the one making the moves. This is the problem with the central triangle. Mikono does not pursue any relationship (the flower of everyone's affection) but still gets jealous when someone tries to... do something assertive. The fact that the romantic moments all suddenly disappeared after Ep. 12 didn't help because everything then just stalled and then we're introduced to Zessica doing everything Mikono hasn't done in 25 episodes of this show: Try to develop a relationship.

Originally Posted by Gohan78

Mikono is not a fighter. She tried her best with what she can do: supporting Yunoha after Jin's death, cheering up Zessica when she was down (in the bananas episode), connecting people during the Training of the Grave, going on a search for Fudo on her own.
Many viewers conveniently forget her good deeds to concentrate on her shortcomings. It's not even her fault that she is being constantly kidnapped by Kagura.
Mikono never showed romantic feelings towards Kagura. At most she showed embarassment and pity. She shielded him once because she felt that he wasn't completely evil but in dire situations she always called Amata's name.

For one, I don't think she cheered up Zessica on the beach. I don't think that was what that scene was meant to convey... and it certainly didn't do any cheering up. So if that was its intent, it was a catastrophic failure. The others thing you've listed are fine, excellent, but they happened at the latest 11 episodes ago.

Mikono's been kidnapped once, effectively, by Kagura, three episodes ago. His small interruptions every 6 odd episodes is not a reason or excuse for her doing nothing and never sitting down to talk with Amata. If she has no romantic feelings for the guy, then there's no reason she cannot give that knowledge (and comfort) to Amata, who was visibly torn and beating himself up over it. It just makes her seem... heartless.

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I'm verging on an aside now, this is more to do with Amata's list vs. reality.
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As far as people forgetting positives, people seem to forget the negatives. In particular the irony of what Amata said in Ep. 25 with what Mikono said in Ep. 19.
- Afraid of getting hurt.
- Cause Amata and Zessica pain.
vs.
- Tries her hardest and takes on people's pain.
His description is awfully picky. He's seen her do these things for Yunoha and the graveyard episode, and this is fine. Its a great list but...

They don't actually apply to him or Zessica, to whom she's actually doing the opposite and *not* trying her hardest. If she had been, she'd have resolved everything before leaving, not left with the infamous "I'll tell you later!" while knowing what she had to say anyway (this is not trying, this is delaying). Like she said, she's afraid of getting hurt and won't face that problem until everything else is fixed first.

This is either brilliant stupidity in the writing where they forgot what they wrote before. Or Amata's verging on willfully ignorant. Just imagine how much more touching the scene in Ep. 25 would/could have been if Amata doesn't treat Mikono as a trophy that he has to describe (in a rather awkward *does not apply to me* fashion) and beats down Kagura because he can claim that Mikono actually loves him back? Instantly, he no longer treats Mikono as a trophy.

[C.A.]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Then it's not trolling, imo.

Trolling is about writing to upset your audience. To make them feel anger towards a certain character or plot event/reveal.

If a writer knows what he is writing and aims to invoke a certain emotion, including anger, then he is consciously and skillfully writing it.

But Kawamori doesn't seem to know what reactions he want to cause and is writing just to cause a reaction and the reaction in this case happens to be disappointment and anger. A deliberate attempt to cause anger through conscious writing is different from anger caused by inapt writing, this inapt writing is more trolling to me than a skillful and deliberate effort.

Kawamori has wasted all the main and reincarnated characters as well as Zessica. He doesn't know why the audience hate Mikono, doesn't know what the audience will think about Pollon, he doesn't seem to know how his own characters are presenting themselves to the audience.

[Zuul]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It was that precise statement that (after I thought about it) made it clear to me that this wasn't a deconstruction, as much as I was hoping it was.

With a deconstruction, you can't afford to put top priority on pleasing your audience (i.e. not leaving them with a bitter aftertaste). Deconstruction is very risky, usually it'll piss some people off (fan reaction to NGE, especially End of Eva, instantly comes to mind).




Then it's not trolling, imo.

Trolling is about writing to upset your audience. To make them feel anger towards a certain character or plot event/reveal.

At this point an happy MikonoxAmata end is what is the most likely to let people a bitter after taste.

People on a/ are actually rooting for Mykage. And I do to.

@CA

Well at least Okada was very aware of what people would think of the warui onna Mikono who manipulates men without knowing.
Kaji too.

[KleenexGhost]

it will end in a bitter taste but I still think that they're gonna still end the series on a bittersweet note. Whether it be some of the reasons that were discussed earlier or some other reason. I can say that a straight up happy ending, while I like them, will feel out of place and not right. This has so far been a tragedy and it should end as one.

[C.A.]

Originally Posted by Zuul

Well at least Okada was very aware of what people would think of the warui onna Mikono who manipulates men without knowing.
Kaji too.

It really makes me wonder if the writers and the directors actually discuss with the storyboarders how they want the plot to go.

They don't seem to feel the same about their characters and as a result have huge inconsistencies that people notice and are complaining about.

Things like characters suddenly forgetting previous development, forgetting their parents died, who loves who etc., and sudden character quirks are inconsistencies that happen when writers do not work with the storyboarders.

While the writers write the plot and script, the storyboarders have to interpret and draw those into a sequence of scenes. Without a good writer joining in the discussion, it can result in inconsistencies.

[Zuul]

Originally Posted by C.A.

It really makes me wonder if the writers and the directors actually discuss with the storyboarders how they want the plot to go.

They don't seem to feel the same about their characters and as a result have huge inconsistencies that people notice and are complaining about.

Things like characters suddenly forgetting previous development, forgetting their parents died, who loves who etc., and sudden character quirks are inconsistencies that happen when writers do not work with the storyboarders.

While the writers write the plot and script, the storyboarders have to interpret and draw those into a sequence of scenes. Without a good writer joining in the discussion, it can result in inconsistencies.

It makes perfect sense with the way the Izumo/Alicia death was treated.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Vena

As far as people forgetting positives, people seem to forget the negatives. In particular the irony of what Amata said in Ep. 25 with what Mikono said in Ep. 19.
- Afraid of getting hurt.
- Cause Amata and Zessica pain.
vs.
- Tries her hardest and takes on people's pain.
His description is awfully picky. He's seen her do these things for Yunoha and the graveyard episode, and this is fine. Its a great list but...

This is exactly what pisses me off with the writing. She's supposed to come out as try hard considerate girl, but instead looks like a passive-aggressive uncaring woman who is leading on people knowing fully well she's hurting them because of the plot focus. It's blatantly bad writing.

[Amata Sora]

I just hope I get the ending I wanted but I feel thats pretty impossible seeing as nothing has gone anyones way so far.

[Amata Sora]

Is it just me , or is anyone else seeing slight death flags fro Kagura?

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Amata Sora

Is it just me , or is anyone else seeing slight death flags fro Kagura?

Most likely for Amata (following the Kawamori pattern). They promised the ending wouldn't leave a bad taste in people's mouth.

Kagura's the only popular male character after Jin in Japan. While even that operator guy who had like one line is more popular than poor Amata.

[C.A.]

Actually just about all the non side characters have death flags on them, any or all of them can sacrifice for each other for one reason or another.

[Zuul]

I want Fudou/Appolonius to die. Seriously I still can't stomach the fact he lets poor Appollo die in his place.