Mahou Girl Lyrical Nanoha The MOVIE 1st, Expectations and Speculation

[Karlaxe]

Originally Posted by Fishbait

Quite the big news

Although I doubt it will take the NxF relationship further........................................... ........sigh

Haha.....No.

The movie's a retelling of the first season, you say? So that means we're gonna see the whole Nanoha vs Fate thing going on again. The only problem I slightly have with the series is that...no one dies. People bleed enough to cover the floor, and yet they're fine in the end. I guess that's not too bad, after all, I'm a sucker for happy endings.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

And before anyone starts, step away from mai waifu!

Originally Posted by Kha

*continues hugging Fate-chan* >:3

Originally Posted by Preston

Them be fighting words. Don't force my hand.

*Watches on while hugging Vivio* Fate-fans are weird people.

Originally Posted by Preston

I think all the process of fixing would involve, like I said previously, some new footage placed between familiar scenes, some addition to dialog, a slight change to tone or reaction or facial expression here and there, all which add credence to the already conspicuous continuity. It would not require any radical plot change, and Seven could just claim they omitted it previously, or, they couldn't spare the budget. Everything comes out nice, simple, and profitable.

And yet if their aim is to make NanoFate canon, they'd contradict several other sources of information, like the ending of A's, the relationship charts, and the Sound Stage M, which has Hayate and Fate talking about why Nanoha and Yuuno haven't gotten together yet.

No, this is much more complicated then it seems.

Originally Posted by Preston

I understand you now. Yes, a post-StrikerS film could do much to fix the same problem. I can only put the decision to return to season one for the film as the studio's preference (they're more familiar with that scene, and MGLN did stem from it), the wish to rebuild it to a greater quality (as I have previously theorised), and the marketing benefits. StrikerS was more popular, so there will be people that have seen that and not S1 and A's; maybe Seven is doing the film for their benefit, to fill in the gaps, as well as luring them back to sample their older works.

Sounds like a good case scenario.

Originally Posted by Preston

Not so. They can omit some scenes, change some villains, and yes, alter the plot somewhat, but nothing need be done that would damage continuity, Especially if they intend to do another film for A's (which one could consider implied by the title of this film). They can have everything rounded off nice and tidily for progression onto a possible fourth series.

There are several things they cannot remove if they wish to keep the plot intact:

• Jewel Seeds: These were an essential part of the first season, and are mentioned again later on in the series. Removing them would create gaps.
• Precia and Alicia: Again, cetral in the series and very important later on, especially in A's.
• Yuuno: There is no way they can write out Yuuno, and according to the sketches they don't plan to. His human form must also be shown at least once in the movie (pretty easy, but Yuuno-haters will not be happy).
• TSAB: Also another factor that needs to be taken into account, without the TSAB, very little that happens in the following seasons will make sense.
• Lost Logia/Al Hazard explanation: As I recall, the only explanation that we are given on the subject of what Lost Logia and Al Hazard are stems from season 1 (actually, I wouldn't mind if they delve a bit deeper into Al Hazard in the movie)

By the looks of it, Nanoha's familly and Arisa and Suzuka are going to get the brunt of the ommiting, being that they weren't really important to the plot (Arisa discovering Arf is easy to work around). What is going to be really hard to properly display somewhat realistically is Nanoha's leaps in strength. In the series, they could use the "X-amount of time has passed between episodes" but timeskips in movies often feel weird. The Jewel Seed hunt also needs to be shortened immensely, probably catching all they need in a few flashes or the like.

However, while this does serve to shorten the anime, it still hasn't fixed the problem that Nanoha feels far more like a Magical Girl anime then the other seasons. Changes in plot that could fix this would be Chrono ariving sooner, or even Yuuno being send as a front officer of the TSAB himself, send to recruit people (random ideas, don't take them too seriously).

[Kha]

At least people aren't dying then being miraculously resurrected, and I thank Haruhi for that!

@Keroko: Cos I feel weird hugging Erio; I'm nowhere as clingy as my dad. I'm better at patting his head for a job well done in StrikerS despite semi-shaftage though.

[Preston]

Originally Posted by Keroko

And yet if their aim is to make NanoFate canon, they'd contradict several other sources of information, like the ending of A's, the relationship charts, and the Sound Stage M, which has Hayate and Fate talking about why Nanoha and Yuuno haven't gotten together yet.

No, this is much more complicated then it seems.

They wouldn't contradict anything. The end of A's? I don't recall anything relevant then. The relationship charts? All they served to do was to downgrade the nature of Yunno's relationship with Nanoha while preserving the general inclination toward ambiguity (this can be seen as the start of Seven's final romantic relations choices). Besides, one would hope to be good, best friends with their partner if they ever wanted a stable and lasting relationship. As for Sound Stages, all I know is that Fate's seiyuu is a giant NanoFate fan, and has even agreed with Nanoha's that she is the father, and Fate the mother of Vivio. She goes to great lengths to implicate the two are a couple. I forgot that whole realm of reasoning previously, but don't want to go into it here.

And fiction is as complicated as the creators decide to make it. In the end everything turns out quite simplistic, usually, every story following the same base structure. Heroes and villains, a beginning, middle and end. Either character or events drive the story.

Originally Posted by Keroko

There are several things they cannot remove if they wish to keep the plot intact:

• Jewel Seeds: These were an essential part of the first season, and are mentioned again later on in the series. Removing them would create gaps.
• Precia and Alicia: Again, cetral in the series and very important later on, especially in A's.
• Yuuno: There is no way they can write out Yuuno, and according to the sketches they don't plan to. His human form must also be shown at least once in the movie (pretty easy, but Yuuno-haters will not be happy).
• TSAB: Also another factor that needs to be taken into account, without the TSAB, very little that happens in the following seasons will make sense.
• Lost Logia/Al Hazard explanation: As I recall, the only explanation that we are given on the subject of what Lost Logia and Al Hazard are stems from season 1 (actually, I wouldn't mind if they delve a bit deeper into Al Hazard in the movie)

By the looks of it, Nanoha's familly and Arisa and Suzuka are going to get the brunt of the ommiting, being that they weren't really important to the plot (Arisa discovering Arf is easy to work around). What is going to be really hard to properly display somewhat realistically is Nanoha's leaps in strength. In the series, they could use the "X-amount of time has passed between episodes" but timeskips in movies often feel weird. The Jewel Seed hunt also needs to be shortened immensely, probably catching all they need in a few flashes or the like.

However, while this does serve to shorten the anime, it still hasn't fixed the problem that Nanoha feels far more like a Magical Girl anime then the other seasons. Changes in plot that could fix this would be Chrono ariving sooner, or even Yuuno being send as a front officer of the TSAB himself, send to recruit people (random ideas, don't take them too seriously).

They needn't remove these things; they need only not show it. Two hours isn't time enough to explain everything by lending it screen time, and only a fool would try. This is why I believe a retelling can only stem from the desire to fix a problem, rather than create a new, fleshed-out alternate scenario. By saying that this happens parallel to the first series, people that enjoy it are likely to go and watch the first series.

And there are plenty of films that handle time skips very well, indeed I remember a film that went had short snippets in reverse order (the lead had short term memory loss) with a massive revelation at the end (or rather, beginning). It was a masterpiece.

[labpartner]

Originally Posted by Estavali

Nanoha's redesigned BJ seems somewhat reminiscent of a certain Gundam....

She's the "White Demon", remember who that is in the Gundam Universe?

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Preston

They wouldn't contradict anything. The end of A's? I don't recall anything relevant then.

Ami had a conversation with Yuuno on why there wasn't any progress between him and Nanoha. This would look weird if they made NanoFate official in the first season, no?

This is why a StrikerS movie would have made more sense if it was for the sake of romance, sure there's the relationship chart, but that's hardly as important is an actual scene in the anime (you can even say that the movie is setd after the chart). Right now, if they really make this movie because of the romance, it'd definetely be AU, as every other source (anime, manga and soundstages) would contradict it in some way or the other.

Originally Posted by Preston

The relationship charts? All they served to do was to downgrade the nature of Yunno's relationship with Nanoha while preserving the general inclination toward ambiguity (this can be seen as the start of Seven's final romantic relations choices).

They also downgraded Fate from 'Fate-mama' to 'Nanoha's best friend alongside Hayate' it was more a return to status quo then anything else.

Originally Posted by Preston

Besides, one would hope to be good, best friends with their partner if they ever wanted a stable and lasting relationship. As for Sound Stages, all I know is that Fate's seiyuu is a giant NanoFate fan, and has even agreed with Nanoha's that she is the father, and Fate the mother of Vivio. She goes to great lengths to implicate the two are a couple. I forgot that whole realm of reasoning previously, but don't want to go into it here.

I was more talking about the 'in character' sound stages, not the Seiyuu comment ones.

Originally Posted by Preston

And fiction is as complicated as the creators decide to make it. In the end everything turns out quite simplistic, usually, every story following the same base structure. Heroes and villains, a beginning, middle and end. Either character or events drive the story.

... I am quite surprised to see you as an author actually make that statement. Fiction easilly gets very complicated, especially when the world surounding the fiction gets larger. Sure, you can hammer things down and make things easy, but that means you're relying on the stupidity of your audience (i.e. not noticing the changes) this is a very bad thing to do, as you treat your audience like idiots.

Originally Posted by Preston

They needn't remove these things; they need only not show it. Two hours isn't time enough to explain everything by lending it screen time, and only a fool would try. This is why I believe a retelling can only stem from the desire to fix a problem, rather than create a new, fleshed-out alternate scenario. By saying that this happens parallel to the first series, people that enjoy it are likely to go and watch the first series.

Which, in the end, wouldn't really fix anything, would it? It would only serve to complicate the film, and point people towards what you tried to fix to get answers. If that's the marketing strategy, then that's the marketing strategy, but its pretty much the oposite of fixing things.

This is why I believe they'll make it AU instead of a simple remake, they can change far more that way and make a good flowing and interesting story that doesn't leave you with question marks that are only answered if you go watch the original, which means going through the same story again, only this time at a dreadfully slow pace. The first season of Nanoha can be quite off-putting for non-magical girl fans due to its low speed and overly magical girlness.

Originally Posted by Preston

And there are plenty of films that handle time skips very well, indeed I remember a film that went had short snippets in reverse order (the lead had short term memory loss) with a massive revelation at the end (or rather, beginning). It was a masterpiece.

Allright, I'll retract that stament then.

[Preston]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Ami had a conversation with Yuuno on why there wasn't any progress between him and Nanoha. This would look weird if they made NanoFate official in the first season, no?

Not at all. Ami is only a support character that gets to see little of Nanoha and Fate's time together. Besides, it's only a question. I think you are reading too deeply here. People ask me how I am "progressing" with girls they probably know I'm not interested in (or they wrongly think I am). Not everything people say is serious, and people do not know everything.

Originally Posted by Keroko

They also downgraded Fate from 'Fate-mama' to 'Nanoha's best friend alongside Hayate' it was more a return to status quo then anything else.

I was more talking about the 'in character' sound stages, not the Seiyuu comment ones.

I lend far less credence to these quick-fixes than the actual animation. Seven wanted to cover themselves, and I know why.

Originally Posted by Keroko

I am quite surprised to see you as an author actually make that statement. Fiction easilly gets very complicated, especially when the world surounding the fiction gets larger. Sure, you can hammer things down and make things easy, but that means you're relying on the stupidity of your audience (i.e. not noticing the changes) this is a very bad thing to do, as you treat your audience like idiots.

I don't think I need advice on catering to people. You forget that not everyone is dazzlingly bright, indeed the majority are going to be average, and a publisher is sure as hell not going to want something that presumes they are all geniuses. Hard science fiction is far, far less popular than conventional fantasy for this very reason, but I hardly think it necessary I need argue this statement. Anyway, I was referring to the building blocks of storytelling. After you've studied it awhile you realise just how simple the basic creation process really is. And, like I said, it's up to the creator to decide how complicated things will get. Reading some of the classic novelettes and shorts by the likes of Asimov and Heinlein will show you just how perceived simplicity can give the illusion of something terribly complicated.

This is because the author has gone and done all the hard thinking before they started writing, even if it wouldn't feature directly in the story. Orson Scott Card says again and again that any author that hasn't set themselves down and given much thought to the world creation process for Sci-Fi or Fantasy before they started writing their story will show through as a cheater, because readers are far from stupid, and I wholeheartedly agree. Before I write a word of prose I spend quite a while considering important facts, but when I go and write my story, I don't make a big deal over them, I don't go and yell in the faces of my readers that I've spent time working around the impossibility of FTL travel, because, for one, I'd look entirely self-absorbed (and foolish as many will have come up with far better ideas to work around it than mine), and secondly, because they will be able to tell, subconsciously, that the work has been done. They will be able to trust what I write without the reason being forced down their throats.

Originally Posted by Keroko

This is why I believe they'll make it AU instead of a simple remake, they can change far more that way and make a good flowing and interesting story that doesn't leave you with question marks that are only answered if you go watch the original, which means going through the same story again, only this time at a dreadfully slow pace. The first season of Nanoha can be quite off-putting for non-magical girl fans due to its low speed and overly magical girlness.

You cannot expect a wholesome, all loose ends tied up two hour production. Relying on previous material that the studio can at least cite as reason for perceived plot holes is a commonly exploited strategy. This is why I am always wary of films born from television.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Preston

Not at all. Ami is only a support character that gets to see little of Nanoha and Fate's time together. Besides, it's only a question. I think you are reading too deeply here. People ask me how I am "progressing" with girls they probably know I'm not interested in (or they wrongly think I am). Not everything people say is serious, and people do not know everything.

I disagree harshly on this one, especially concidering Ami was one of the core people responsible for monitoring Nanoha and Fate while on earth. Anyway, regardless of our interpretations, making this movie romance-centered would not solve anything. Currently we have people who support NanoFate bringing in the arguments why it does, and people who don't support NanoFate bringing in arguments why its not. If the movie was romance centered and had an official NanoFate, people will do the exact same thing we are doing right now. The people who support NanoFate show the movie as proof, the people who don't support NanoFate say its AU, and show all further canon evidence on why its AU.

What would it solve? In the end, nothing.

Originally Posted by Preston

I don't think I need advice on catering to people. You forget that not everyone is dazzlingly bright, indeed the majority are going to be average, and a publisher is sure as hell not going to want something that presumes they are all geniuses. Hard science fiction is far, far less popular than conventional fantasy for this very reason, but I hardly think it necessary I need argue this statement. Anyway, I was referring to the building blocks of storytelling. After you've studied it awhile you realise just how simple the basic creation process really is. And, like I said, it's up to the creator to decide how complicated things will get. Reading some of the classic novelettes and shorts by the likes of Asimov and Heinlein will show you just how perceived simplicity can give the illusion of something terribly complicated.

This is because the author has gone and done all the hard thinking before they started writing, even if it wouldn't feature directly in the story. Orson Scott Card says again and again that any author that hasn't set themselves down and given much thought to the world creation process for Sci-Fi or Fantasy before they started writing their story will show through as a cheater, because readers are far from stupid, and I wholeheartedly agree. Before I write a word of prose I spend quite a while considering important facts, but when I go and write my story, I don't make a big deal over them, I don't go and yell in the faces of my readers that I've spent time working around the impossibility of FTL travel, because, for one, I'd look entirely self-absorbed (and foolish as many will have come up with far better ideas to work around it than mine), and secondly, because they will be able to tell, subconsciously, that the work has been done. They will be able to trust what I write without the reason being forced down their throats.

So, having said that, why is the contradiction of other material seemingly not an issue for you? I've seen the bad retcons, the 'no that never really happened, here's what really happened' ones. They're usually horrible, and make you feel like you're being treated like an idiot. Making NanoFate official from the get-go is complicated, because there is already existing material in the sequels that suggests otherwise. Simply adding a few scenes and an 'I love you' may serve as a nice ship-tease for the NanoFate fans, but like I said before, when compared to the other canon, it'd definetely be AU (which really, was my point from the start: This movie is most likely going to be AU).

Originally Posted by Preston

You cannot expect a wholesome, all loose ends tied up two hour production. Relying on previous material that the studio can at least cite as reason for perceived plot holes is a commonly exploited strategy. This is why I am always wary of films born from television.

No I don't, which is why I expect this movie to go AU. No loose ends, but a good flowing storyline.

To bring the argument full circle: I believe this story is not going to be a mere re-telling, but an AU project. Fans will be treated to gracious scenes, and perhaps even an 'I love you' from their favourite mages, but its not going to replace what we've seen before.

[Preston]

Originally Posted by Keroko

So, having said that, why is the contradiction of other material seemingly not an issue for you? I've seen the bad retcons, the 'no that never really happened, here's what really happened' ones. They're usually horrible, and make you feel like you're being treated like an idiot.

Because I understand that MGLN isn't the work of only one person anymore.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Making NanoFate official from the get-go is complicated, because there is already existing material in the sequels that proves otherwise. Simply adding a few scenes and an 'I love you' may serve as a nice ship-tease for the NanoFate fans, but like I said before, when compared to the other canon, it'd definetely be AU (which really, was my point from the start: This movie is most likely going to be AU).

I detect some needless bitterness here, so I'm going to cease this argument with a few final words: nothing has been "proven".

Originally Posted by Keroko

To bring the argument full circle: I believe this story is not going to be a mere re-telling, but an AU project. Fans will be treated to gracious scenes, and perhaps even an 'I love you' from their favourite mages, but its not going to replace what we've seen before.

And you can read my response to that in the second post I made in this thread. Only time will tell who is right.

[Allquall]

Ummmm....Can It Be Let's-Talk-About-Bardiche's-Kickass-Makeover-Time now? That is a fine device to take a few swipes at Nanoha's neck. Knowing that no one dies in Nanoha, I'm hoping that they at least show blood. Elfen Lied amounts of blood.

[Comartemis]

*Comar sweatdrops at Kero and Preston*

Personally I hope it is an AU, and I don't care if the die-hard Yuuno fans regard it as such when arguing against NanoFate; the point is it exists and it's an official--if not the official--continuity instead of something fan-made.

Originally Posted by Allquall

Knowing that no one dies in Nanoha, I'm hoping that they at least show blood. Elfen Lied amounts of blood.

...you go ahead and wait for that.

[Allquall]

Originally Posted by Comartemis

...you go ahead and wait for that.

Just trying to break the tension in here. It's like watching a Detroit-Colorado hockey game. Whew.

[Preston]

Originally Posted by Allquall

Just trying to break the tension in here. It's like watching a Detroit-Colorado hockey game. Whew.

Yeah. I'm done. I think. As for blood, mm, I'd go with that. Elfen Lied was good.

[Kha]

BLOOD FOR THE BLOO-- Oops.

But even StrikerS needs to be a bit more gritty.

[Comartemis]

*Comar facepalms at the 40Kism*

Yep, consider the tension completely destroyed.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Preston

I detect some needless bitterness here, so I'm going to cease this argument with a few final words: nothing has been "proven".

Hmm? Oh no, there's no bitterness on this side. I'm neutral when it comes to pairings, I like Nanovita, but I'm happy no matter who she ends up with.

Originally Posted by Preston

And you can read my response to that in the second post I made in this thread. Only time will tell who is right.

That it will. Well, this was fun while it lasted.

Originally Posted by Allquall

Just trying to break the tension in here. It's like watching a Detroit-Colorado hockey game. Whew.

Nya? We were just having a fun debate. Or at least I was.

[Comartemis]

Didn't seem all that fun from this angle; seemed kinda like a debate only a few precarious steps away from a full-blown arguement/potential flamefest. Maybe it had something to do with NanoFate getting worked into the discussion...

[Petco]

Nanoha sure looks serious-looking, kind of tomboyish too with her new hair. In fact, I wonder if Nanoha will keep her kind "befriending" personaility or replace it with a "mean" "serious-business" "lets be friends but lets do some serious business first" personality. Does anyone sort of agree? Or am I just looking at Nanoha at the wrong angle

We'll see how the movie goes.

But couldn't a girl in a black suit look cooler?

For me, yes, but personally I'm not thinking of the same image as AtomicoX.

Bardiche, well, it's just a talking device to me, only thing I can picture him being is him(Bardiche).

Anyway, I liked his voice, I like the device, female voice = Completely changing the character. Well, even though Bardiche isn't really a "major character", turning him female is completely changing him.

I'm too used to Bardiche, and like others, I like his "character" and his voice so. changing him is something I don't like.

i don't know why everyone is so mad about the loli's turning into women.

Well, one thing I don't like is Nanoha in StrikerS. I really liked her when she was just an innocent befriendy girl but in StrikerS, she's kind of less befriendy(she totally did not befriend or try to befriend the numbers, which I would have liked).

Speaking of numbers, to killing off Due, poor Due.

Hayate deserves more.

Agreed.

No, I am very far from being a man-hater. I guess I hate what the creators did to him. The first shot that introduces us to the character (and to the series) in S1 is him failing to seal a jewel seed with the same ID that Nanoha handles easily.

Personally, I like Yuuno(especially the relation with Nanoha). Especially the scene when Yuuno transform into a human for the first time, Nanoha's reaction = Win.
The Nanoha and Yuuno friend relationship was nice.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Comartemis

Didn't seem all that fun from this angle; seemed kinda like a debate only a few precarious steps away from a full-blown arguement/potential flamefest.

You should know me better by now Comar, when was the last time you saw me flame someone?

Originally Posted by Comartemis

Maybe it had something to do with NanoFate getting worked into the discussion...

Probably, things always get a little less objective when opinions enter the fray, and since NanoFate is all about opinions, it quickly became a battle of subjectivity and opinions.

[Comartemis]

Originally Posted by Petco

Personally, I like Yuuno(especially the relation with Nanoha). Especially the scene when Yuuno transform into a human for the first time, Nanoha's reaction = Win.
The Nanoha and Yuuno friend relationship was nice.

I am neutral on the subject of Yuuno. On the one hand, he's an obstacle to NanoFate and OBSTACLES ARE FOR SMASHING! On the other hand he's a fairly cool mage in his own right; he needs a Crowning Moment of Awesome or two to remind us all that he's an Ace in his own right, able to stand on level ground with the Wolkenritter and Nanoha herself... even if he's not doing much attacking while he's standing on said ground.