Mahou Girl Lyrical Nanoha The MOVIE 1st, Expectations and Speculation

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

So there are unconfirmed rumors going around that the studio animating Nanoha the Movie will be....

Production I.G.?



Here's one rumor I wish is TRUE!!!!!

OMG That would be so much win if it's true!

wow first the announcement of Black Lagoon season 3 and now this! Next season is going to be awesome!

[Fishbait]

Quite the big news

Although I doubt it will take the NxF relationship further........................................... ........sigh

[Ultima_Rasengan05]

Originally Posted by Kai the Reaper

I kind of remember the one from the first movie. But wasn't it just a short 15 minutes movie with... well, whatever it was, I don't remember it having much of a good plot and all.

Hayate deserves more.

Thinking about it now, yeah that is too short of a time to show the greatness of Hayate. She definitely deserves more after what happened in StrikerS. Haha, how about a cameo appearance in the movie.

I don't really know how they're going to restart the whole Nanoha story with the movie's story. I mean, what things will they cut out and what elements will they leave in? For sure the Jewel Seeds backstory will be shortened, but they need all the time to develop the friendship of Nanoha and Fate. Not to mention the interference of TSAB and Chrono. Maybe Chrono will get to fight Fate...he should get an action sequence in this movie.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Evangelion Xgouki

Just covering the animated stuff:

Shin Seiki Evangelion: 26 TV episodes

Additional development scenes cut from the TV airing were included in the Japanese DVD release but not in the first ADV US release. These scenes would later be added into the 'Director's Cut' DVDs and then in the revamped 'Platinum' (Renewal of Evangelion in Japan) edition.

Death & Rebirth: summary movie created to be shown before the Evangelion movie as the movie was released a few years after the TV series ended; also contains some new scenes.

End of Evangelion (EoE): a re-telling of the ending of the Evangelion TV series (broken up into 2 parts, 25' and 26') and a continuation. While the TV series is more of the psychological happenings, this movie features what is happening in the real world as well as concluding the TV series.

ReBuild of Evangelion: A recent project headed by Anno that will feature 4 films. The first so far has been a retelling of eps 1 - 6 with some changes that have sparked speculation as to whether these movies will be a re-telling or some sort of continuation. The second movie is set to be released end of 2008.

In other words, there is only one season, and all the movies and such were re-tellings of that one season, perhaps adding and changing a few things here and there, right?

In that case, there is a high chance that the Nanoha movie will be AU, as unlike Evangelion, Nanoha has sequels that would be contradicted.

Originally Posted by Allquall

No, I am very far from being a man-hater. I guess I hate what the creators did to him. The first shot that introduces us to the character (and to the series) in S1 is him failing to seal a jewel seed with the same ID that Nanoha handles easily. He is so defeated that a nine year old has to rescue him in his ferret-state. Then, he's forced on the audience as a love interest especially in StrikerS where we have two major scenes of blushing that are just out of place (but there were many of those types of scenes in StS). If the creators wanted to give Nanoha relationship potential, they should have used Chrono's character where they have equal power, but that's my twopence. Frankly, Nanoha's character is better off relationship-less in canon, because it keeps everyone guessing and everyone anticipating.

Okay, thanks for explaining.

Originally Posted by Allquall

Back on topic and off of my ranting derail, I am wondering if they will bring in Raising Heart's origins. Will it still come from Yunno, and where did he get it from?

Yuuno is in one of the production sketches, so I think he's going to be involved.

Originally Posted by Comartemis

I have a pet theory that RH is an ancient artifact Yuuno dug up, a relic of Belka used by a powerful mage, perhaps a paladin skilled in the usage of white magic. Nanoha has an identical affinity for white magic, which is why RH responds so readily to her and not to Yuuno, who is a fairly good mage in his own right, all lack of offensive magic aside.

You're better of calling it a relic of Mid, as Raising Heart is quite clearly a Mid Childan device. Not all powerfull weaponry needs to come from Belka.

Also, if anything Yuuno is the white mage of the two. His main spells are support and healing spells, Nanoha's main spells are offensive in nature, with some support.

Originally Posted by Evangelion Xgouki

Looks like we have an update on the premise of the film. AnimeNewsNetwork posted an article on the upcoming film, slated for "Winter 2008." The article mentions that:

Franchise creator Masaki Tsuzuki emphasized that the movie is not necessarily the "true history" of the story, but a "new parallel history."

The article in its entirety can be found here.

Originally Posted by Demon Eyes

There is a *NEW* in there and Ladies and gentlemen, that is all I needed to know.

Seconded, bring on fresh plot!

[narmi]

Originally Posted by Evangelion Xgouki

Looks like we have an update on the premise of the film. AnimeNewsNetwork posted an article on the upcoming film, slated for "Winter 2008." The article mentions that:

Franchise creator Masaki Tsuzuki emphasized that the movie is not necessarily the "true history" of the story, but a "new parallel history."

The article in its entirety can be found here.

Hurray! A retelling of Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha. Heh this reminds me of Macross; Do you remember love and that was well done.

Originally Posted by Fishbait

Quite the big news

Although I doubt it will take the NxF relationship further........................................... ........sigh

Oh well at least we will see an alternate retelling of the events in Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha. One thing for sure is we will see a different fight scene from the TV series and a change in character designs.

Originally Posted by LoweGear

So there are unconfirmed rumors going around that the studio animating Nanoha the Movie will be....

Production I.G.?



Here's one rumor I wish is TRUE!!!!!

That would be one of the greatest thing to happen if it does happen.

I have lots of hope for the movie and now I can go on knowing there will be a movie on Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha. With that I saw the character designs and I'm glad they changed Nanoha's barrier jacket (while Fate's almost looks the same.) With that the small additions to their intelligence devices are great. From what I'm seeing at the moment this movie will satisfy most Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha fans.

I can't wait to see the fighting animations and the plot fragments they will select for the movie. OH YAH! I wonder what are Arf's, Lindy's and Testarossa's (not Fate) character designs going to be like?

I know one thing I'm going to try and do. I need to watch Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha, following A's and then StrikerS. HURRAY!!

[FRS]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

So there are unconfirmed rumors going around that the studio animating Nanoha the Movie will be....

Production I.G.?



Here's one rumor I wish is TRUE!!!!!

That would be good eh, but it would be better to keep them in reserve to animate the fight of A's or to make an espionnage/military spinoff from Striker's .

[Kha]

Hmm... Teana having to fully jettison her Barrier Jacket to turn invisible...

[FRS]

Or a special unit lead by Ginga filled with the reformed numbers

[Preston]

Originally Posted by Keroko

In other words, there is only one season, and all the movies and such were re-tellings of that one season, perhaps adding and changing a few things here and there, right?

In that case, there is a high chance that the Nanoha movie will be AU, as unlike Evangelion, Nanoha has sequels that would be contradicted.

Format is irrelevant; there is plot and there is history. Contradictions are inevitable; events are glossed over, design changes made, etc. Overall, new decisions are made. For example, these minor aesthetic changes of the devices and anything else including barrier jackets were inevitable; films have larger budgets than TV series. Consider what you see a portrayal of events. This portrayal was limited in the first series by a low animation budget. Now Seven Arcs' have a chance to go back and flesh things out, add details to their vision. It is little different from You Are (Not) Alone. It's cheap to draw a floating diamond, but no-one wants to see one in a film. It's the same villain, just it has had a visual touch-up.

Originally Posted by Evangelion Xgouki

Looks like we have an update on the premise of the film. AnimeNewsNetwork posted an article on the upcoming film, slated for "Winter 2008." The article mentions that:

Franchise creator Masaki Tsuzuki emphasized that the movie is not necessarily the "true history" of the story, but a "new parallel history."

The article in its entirety can be found here.

I thought Seven Arcs' were getting bold, but they are indeed the personification of their own cowardly words; I cite "not necessarily", "true history" and most of all "parallel history". These are the words of someone that is afraid from fan backlash, or at least fearful of the possible perversion of their vision. As an author, I understand the latter, at least. The former, however, only means that if it receives approval from the majority, it becomes "true history", and if it fails that, it becomes "parallel history". But quite honestly, what is a "new parallel history" and how does it differ from a "true" continuity? He didn't say "alternate" where he could have done, and this might just be a reflection of my understanding of the word "parallel", but I believe that leans more toward the idea of it being simultaneous to the original, filling in gaps, adding new scenes, rather than overwriting major decisions.

Major decisions I define as plot changes; continuity-killers. You can go and get plastic surgery, even change your gender, but you cannot change who you were and what you did in the past. Similarly, Nanoha's barrier jacket could become green with blue spots, and one would only raise an eyebrow and wonder who in the design team screwed up, when and if they moved on to A's after the film; it's fiction; it's niche animation; and above all, it's theirs to call the shots; give them some damned leniency. However, if Nanoha was to die at the end of the film, killed by Fate, let us say, one wouldn't be able to fathom how she suddenly popped up, (at least) best friends with her apparent murderer if one watched A's after the film.

Back to my perception of Tsuzuki's "new parallel history"; it sits well with what I think are Seven Arcs' motives. I believe that either one of the following two things has happened:

1) The lure of riches have become to great; they wish to exploit the yuri empire, that have made quite apparent they will follow where ever Seven's ambiguity will take them (you should have seen the number of Japanese peers - the only market Seven will likely care about - downloading the second NanoFate megapack, and after the US, most visitors to nanofate.net reside in Japan, not to mention the amount of fanart this group has produced; Seven will, certainly, not be blind to the latter). But Seven acknowledge they've toed the line; that they've given us hint after subtle contextual hint, dumped the most questionable scenes on our laps, only to turn around give us unreadable stares when we point and shout, and point out that what we've seen is only our perception. They could just be really, really, really, slightly eccentric, good friends. So, if they are to continue MGLN with an official embrace of NanoFate, they need to go back and fill in some blanks, flesh out some scenes (show us some shots where previously the camera was off/pointing in the wrong direction/at another location ).

2) They've become sick and tired of the yuri labeling. Nanoha and Fate's behavior is completely normal. That bridge scene? Bah, the animators did the same thing when they were kids. Sleeping in the same bed, Fate in underwear? That's what friends do right? I mean, sure, the girls I know all sleep together communally in turn. And raising a child is completely normal for two friends to do; I mean, right to foster a child would certainly be granted to two people who, when asked if they were a couple, replied: "No, no, heh. Just best friends." ... So, they didn't ask for the attention, and now they've got a load of fanboys and fangirls following them around like some lost puppy, shooting them wide-eyed, pleading looks whenever they turn around. What to do? Kick the puppy. Teach it that if it stays around, it's going to get hurt.

(Yes, I made the latter deliberately hyper-biased for the sake of amusement. Don't take it (entirely) seriously )

Either way, they are making a firm decision where MGLN will be going in the future. They knew, sooner or later, ambiguity would turn interest to annoyance, stagnate mystery. Something had to be done to prevent this, and a film is short, and can make them some nice profits (as a TV series wouldn't). Perfect. Of course, I could end up utterly incorrect. If that is the case, I'll eat my words come December and admit how wrong I was.

EDIT: Um... wow... I wrote a mini-essay without even realising it. Well, I said I was going to come back with a big bag of conjecture in my first post in the the thread, didn't I?

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Preston

EDIT: Um... wow... I wrote a mini-essay without even realising it. Well, I said I was going to come back with a big bag of conjecture in my first post in the the thread, didn't I?

Subject for discussion is always a good thing, as long as we saty on topic of the movie and don't start bashing and flaming eachother, nothing is wrong with a mini essay.

Originally Posted by Preston

Format is irrelevant; there is plot and there is history. Contradictions are inevitable; events are glossed over, design changes made, etc. Overall, new decisions are made. For example, these minor aesthetic changes of the devices and anything else including barrier jackets were inevitable; films have larger budgets than TV series. Consider what you see a portrayal of events. This portrayal was limited in the first series by a low animation budget. Now Seven Arcs' have a chance to go back and flesh things out, add details to their vision. It is little different from You Are (Not) Alone. It's cheap to draw a floating diamond, but no-one wants to see one in a film. It's the same villain, just it has had a visual touch-up.

I personally hope you are wrong, because watching the same story I've already seen a dozen times, just shorter and with some visual touchups is not what I am looking forward too. If they're going to make a movie, they might as well do something impressive, something that keeps people to the edge of their seat with tenstion.

Originally Posted by Preston

I thought Seven Arcs' were getting bold, but they are indeed the personification of their own cowardly words; I cite "not necessarily", "true history" and most of all "parallel history". These are the words of someone that is afraid from fan backlash, or at least fearful of the possible perversion of their vision. As an author, I understand the latter, at least. The former, however, only means that if it receives approval from the majority, it becomes "true history", and if it fails that, it becomes "parallel history". But quite honestly, what is a "new parallel history" and how does it differ from a "true" continuity? He didn't say "alternate" where he could have done, and this might just be a reflection of my understanding of the word "parallel", but I believe that leans more toward the idea of it being simultaneous to the original, filling in gaps, adding new scenes, rather than overwriting major decisions.

Speaking as a writer myself as well, I have to disagree with this analysis. I have written stories myself, some which I concider the 'true' storyline, and others that I concider diversions, or 'parallel histories' to those stories. Tsuzuki created the Nanoha timeline as we know them from the TV series, and uses the movie to diverge away from that (in fact, he already did so with the novel once) a parallel history is to vague to go on, basically it just means that the events happen in the same period of time, but it in no way means that the events will follow the same line. In fact, just the parallel is to vague to go either way, as both the filling-the-gaps ot taking-a-spin are possible.

Looking at the series though, filling-the-gaps becomes hard. The series is thirteen episodes long, shortening that down to two hours means that you will be cutting a lot of material. Its possible, there are a lot of scenes in Nanoha that can be cut without affecting the plot, but where you would get the time to add more material is a mystery to me. If you want to keep all the characters and the storyline preserved as it is, there is very little room for new scenes, if any at all. To do so would mean cutting out, or seriously rewrite, several other key events and characters.

Then there is the fact that Tsuzuki said this is not the "true history" (I'm leaving out the 'not necissarily', as this may be interpretation of the author of the ANN article. Someone correct me if I'm wrong) this, combined with the "parallel history" part, shapes the meaning of the later. The parallel history is not the true history, in other words, its a timeline that, while it follows the same frame of time (it happens around the same period) it is not the same. Ruling out any significant changes in plot becomes impossible.

Originally Posted by Preston

1) The lure of riches have become to great; they wish to exploit the yuri empire, that have made quite apparent they will follow where ever Seven's ambiguity will take them (you should have seen the number of Japanese peers - the only market Seven will likely care about - downloading the second NanoFate megapack, and after the US, most visitors to nanofate.net reside in Japan, not to mention the amount of fanart this group has produced; Seven will, certainly, not be blind to the latter). But Seven acknowledge they've toed the line; that they've given us hint after subtle contextual hint, dumped the most questionable scenes on our laps, only to turn around give us unreadable stares when we point and shout, and point out that what we've seen is only our perception. They could just be really, really, really, slightly eccentric, good friends. So, if they are to continue MGLN with an official embrace of NanoFate, they need to go back and fill in some blanks, flesh out some scenes (show us some shots where previously the camera was off/pointing in the wrong direction/at another location ).

Possible, and I would not be surprised if they did. Nanoha-mama and Fate-mama caused them to trip and stumble over the line, and they needed to put Fate on a ship and toss in Yuuno as a sacrificial lamb to return to the Status Quo. Or at least give those who don't worship NanoFate an argument to say they aren't together. However, many of the neutral fans have also been shouting out at Seven Arcs to just give an answer already (most neutral fans don't care whether its a 'yes' or a 'no'). Simply tieing it down and saying 'yes' would mean they no longer have to worry about taking the fanservice too far.

Originally Posted by Preston

2) They've become sick and tired of the yuri labeling. Nanoha and Fate's behavior is completely normal. That bridge scene? Bah, the animators did the same thing when they were kids. Sleeping in the same bed, Fate in underwear? That's what friends do right? I mean, sure, the girls I know all sleep together communally in turn.

For the most part, this is where I usually drew a blank why people said this proved NanoFate, because I did do a lot of those things, and still do as a matter of fact (I actually used to sleep in the same bed with one of my closest friends quite often, untill recently).

Originally Posted by Preston

And raising a child is completely normal for two friends to do;

And this is where they stumbled. The former parts were all perfectly ambigious, but to fix the Fate-mama debacle, they had to make it abundantly clear that Nanoha was the mother, and not Nanoha and Fate, afterwards. They took the fanservice one step too far, to the point where it became hard to believe it was 'just' fanservice.

Originally Posted by Preston

(Yes, I made the latter deliberately hyper-biased for the sake of amusement. Don't take it (entirely) seriously )

Too late. Seriously though, it was funny to read.

Originally Posted by Preston

Either way, they are making a firm decision where MGLN will be going in the future. They knew, sooner or later, ambiguity would turn interest to annoyance, stagnate mystery. Something had to be done to prevent this, and a film is short, and can make them some nice profits (as a TV series wouldn't). Perfect. Of course, I could end up utterly incorrect. If that is the case, I'll eat my words come December and admit how wrong I was.

Likewise, I won't deny I was wrong if your theory turns out to be right.

[Preston]

Originally Posted by Keroko

I personally hope you are wrong, because watching the same story I've already seen a dozen times, just shorter and with some visual touchups is not what I am looking forward too. If they're going to make a movie, they might as well do something impressive, something that keeps people to the edge of their seat with tenstion.

I think you've come to the wrong place for that; it doesn't strike me as a Seven Arcs' tactic or, even, anime studio tactic. New is unsafe, old is proven. Their margin is thin, so they'll keep risk to a minimum.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Speaking as a writer myself as well, I have to disagree with this analysis. I have written stories myself, some which I concider the 'true' storyline, and others that I concider diversions, or 'parallel histories' to those stories. Tsuzuki created the Nanoha timeline as we know them from the TV series, and uses the movie to diverge away from that (in fact, he already did so with the novel once) a parallel history is to vague to go on, basically it just means that the events happen in the same period of time, but it in no way means that the events will follow the same line. In fact, just the parallel is to vague to go either way, as both the filling-the-gaps ot taking-a-spin are possible.

Looking at the series though, filling-the-gaps becomes hard. The series is thirteen episodes long, shortening that down to two hours means that you will be cutting a lot of material. Its possible, there are a lot of scenes in Nanoha that can be cut without affecting the plot, but where you would get the time to add more material is a mystery to me. If you want to keep all the characters and the storyline preserved as it is, there is very little room for new scenes, if any at all. To do so would mean cutting out, or seriously rewrite, several other key events and characters.

Then there is the fact that Tsuzuki said this is not the "true history" (I'm leaving out the 'not necissarily', as this may be interpretation of the author of the ANN article. Someone correct me if I'm wrong) this, combined with the "parallel history" part, shapes the meaning of the later. The parallel history is not the true history, in other words, its a timeline that, while it follows the same frame of time (it happens around the same period) it is not the same. Ruling out any significant changes in plot becomes impossible.

I don't think the film will add anything too new, for reasons stated before. Also, major plot changes are unsafe, and this isn't only Tsuzuki's vision anymore; I also feel his reaction was a voice to his fears; if he doesn't like what the whole of Seven decides to do with his creation, he can say that, in his eyes, it isn't "true history" (hence the "not necessarily" addition covering his back so if things work out later) and fans that perceive themselves as "true" fans will take up the same stance. It's exactly what I would do.

The major reason to make a film at this stage was to correct an error of some kind in previous series, hence my belief that Seven will finally state their stance on relationships (as it is the only major "problem" with MGLN that springs to mind). Look at the new(ish) GitS: SAC film; there wasn't anything that could really be considered new, nor much plot or indeed reason to watch it for those that weren't really concerned with GitS' direction; all the studio really wanted to do was fix the stereotypical "story goes boom" ending for 2nd GIG that they added for maximum impact. Certainly had me on the edge of my seat. But, at the end of the day, plot-death doesn't bode well for profits when you're dealing with a flagship series, so they go ahead and make a film to show that all really ends well - leading up to further, inevitable continuation. I'm convinced Gainax are doing the exact same thing with NGE, and that Seven Arcs' will continue the tradition in much the same vein.

It's not a question of what I want, it's a question of leading by example. The proven masters do it, and so, therefore, everyone else will copy. Let us not forget money is a massive factor; without it, Seven can't do what they enjoy. They are not out just to make a good story, but to create a commercial success.

Thus, I do not expect any plot changes that would damage continuity. You Are (Not) Alone was given good reviews, certainly, but people complained they'd seen it all before; nothing was new; it was a faithful, extremely attractive retelling of the first six episodes. Film is not a place to experiment; you're putting a lot of money on the line when you start out, and you can only guess at how people will receive your vision. If the original was successful, they'll do the exact same thing again. They know people will go and see it. Sure, some will complain afterward that nothing new happened, but the studio will have fixed their problem, and the fans will forget all that prior nastiness when the continuation that was being lead up to is released.

Originally Posted by Keroko

For the most part, this is where I usually drew a blank why people said this proved NanoFate, because I did do a lot of those things, and still do as a matter of fact (I actually used to sleep in the same bed with one of my closest friends quite often, untill recently).

Well, we have to remember this is a story created primarily by males. Most will not do, and wouldn't consider doing the kind of things that were portrayed in all these conspicuous scenes. Besides, I know girls that have done things like sleep huddled together in a ditch after a metal concert, but I can't see most of them sleeping in the same bed in their underwear on a regular basis. Even if they do, I imagine Sevens' male staff share the same general perception, especially as the Japanese are so wary of physical contact. Nanoha is supposed to be a Japanese girl, but does these thing with Fate. These are not things that Japanese friends do. I have a few Japanese friends, and they are, despite their being used to foreigners, a little unwilling to shake hands, or pat one another on the back in a friendly jesture. Imagine, if you will, a sudden tearful embrace, or the exchange of ribbons. Most would be mortified beyond belief, utterly and totally embarrassed. Yet Nanoha does these things. She knows others are watching. This is all the proof I need.

EDIT: I made several additions and corrections after I posted the first version.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Preston

I think you've come to the wrong place for that; it doesn't strike me as a Seven Arcs' tactic or, even, anime studio tactic. New is unsafe, old is proven. Their margin is thin, so they'll keep risk to a minimum.

They did new with StrikerS, it payed off (despite large amount of complaints here, in Japan StrikerS sold better then Nanoha and A's combined) so doing something new is no strange tactic for Seven Arcs.

Originally Posted by Preston

The major reason to make a film at this stage was to correct an error of some kind in previous series,

Source? Or is this just a theory?

Originally Posted by Preston

hence my belief that Seven will finally state their stance on relationships (as it is the only major "problem" with MGLN that springs to mind).

Hmm, another problem that springs to mind is that the first season is too Magical Girlish compared to the other two series. The redesigning of Nanoha's Barrier Jacket and Raising Heart to be less magical girl and more... well, Nanoha, seem to support this.

Originally Posted by Preston

Look at the new(ish) GitS: SAC film; there wasn't anything that could really be considered new, nor much plot or indeed reason to watch it for those that weren't really concerned with GitS' direction; all the studio really wanted to do was fix the stereotypical "story goes boom" ending for 2nd GIG that they added for maximum impact. Certainly had me on the edge of my seat. But, at the end of the day, plot-death doesn't bode well for profits when you're dealing with a flagship series, so they go ahead and make a film to show that all really ends well - leading up to further, inevitable continuation. I'm convinced Gainax are doing the exact same thing with NGE, and that Seven Arcs' will continue the tradition in much the same vein.

Thus, I do not expect any plot changes that would damage continuity. You Are (Not) Alone was given good reviews, certainly, but people complained they'd seen it all before; nothing was new; it was a faithful, extremely attractive retelling of the first six episodes. Film is not a place to experiment; you're putting a lot of money on the line when you start out, and you can only guess at how people will receive your vision. If the original was successful, they'll do the exact same thing again. They know people will go and see it. Sure, some will complain afterward that nothing new happened, but the studio will have fixed their problem, and the fans will forget all that prior nastiness when the continuation that was being lead up to is released.

The problem I see with this comparison is that Nanoha already has a continuation. There is no plot death to fix, so there is no need to make a movie for that. The first season of Nanoha was also filled with ambiguity, but if they wanted to fix the romance in Nanoha, wouldn't it have been better to make a StrikerS movie in which Nanoha and Fate got together? The first season of Nanoha already has a continuation, StrikerS does not, unless they plan to really change things, there is no reason to make a movie about the first season, as there is no plot to fix, nor a continuation to lead up to. All that would be far more fitting, and thus more stable, in the far more succesfull StrikerS.

Originally Posted by Preston

Well, we have to remember this is a story created primarily by males. Most will not do, and wouldn't consider doing the kind of things that were portrayed in all these conspicuous scenes. Besides, I know girls that have done things like sleep huddled together in a ditch after a metal concert, but I can't see most of them sleeping in the same bed in their underwear on a regular basis.

Well, like I said, my own experiences are different. Having done most of the things we see Nanoha and Fate do makes it hard for me to imagine as being proof of their relationship. Oh, I know they are close, but to me those things are far from crossing the line seperating 'love' from 'friendship'

Personal perspective can be strange like that.

Originally Posted by Preston

Even if they do, I imagine Sevens' male staff share the same general perception, especially as the Japanese are so wary of physical contact. Nanoha is supposed to be a Japanese girl, but does these thing with Fate. These are not things that Japanese friends do. I have a few Japanese friends, and they are, despite their being used to foreigners, a little unwilling to shake hands, or pat one another on the back in a friendly gesture. Imagine, if you will, a sudden tearful embrace, or the exchange of ribbons. Most would be mortified beyond belief, utterly and totally embarrassed. Yet Nanoha does these things. She knows others are watching. This is all the proof I need.

This is rather irrelevant, in my opinion, concidering we see this kind of stuff in anime all the time. Friendly pats on the back, hugs, handshakes, all are as comon as dirt in anime. Anime is not an accurate display of Japanese culture. (to add to it, Nanoha and Fate both hugged a distressed Hayate in the manga, Nanoha even drying of Hayate's tears with her own hands. Does that mean both of them love Hayate too?)

[Preston]

Originally Posted by Keroko

The problem I see with this comparison is that Nanoha already has a continuation. There is no plot death to fix, so there is no need to make a movie for that. The first season of Nanoha was also filled with ambiguity, but if they wanted to fix the romance in Nanoha, wouldn't it have been better to make a StrikerS movie in which Nanoha and Fate got together? The first season of Nanoha already has a continuation, StrikerS does not, unless they plan to really change things, there is no reason to make a movie about the first season, as there is no plot to fix, nor a continuation to lead up to. All that would be far more fitting, and thus more stable, in the far more succesfull StrikerS.

Plot death is a problem. Plot death may or may not be the problem a series has. Anime films often fix problems, whatever they may be. It's getting tiresome elaborating on the same thing, and I've provided two examples to turn conjecture to proper reasoning, and am certain I could easily find more. Lastly, I pointed out in depth there is indeed a problem to fix, and you concurred in an earlier post. Besides, to fix it in the time frame of the first season will draw attention back to the first season for the larger market the film opens up to. Money is a factor.

And no, it wouldn't be better to do a StrikerS movie; as you have previously argued many a time that films provide little time to working with; I believe that a fourth season will be forthcoming after this film, starting from a point fans would have though questionable (had this film not filled in a few blanks/rewritten some prior events). Besides, a personal preference on the part of the staff will sway things a little; not everything is cold, hard analysis; maybe they wished to return to a work they felt they could have done to a superior standard. Maybe, to them, the first season sits there, a blemish on the franchise, and they wish to correct it, hmm?

Originally Posted by Keroko

This is rather irrelevant, in my opinion, concidering we see this kind of stuff in anime all the time. Friendly pats on the back, hugs, handshakes, all are as comon as dirt in anime. Anime is not an accurate display of Japanese culture. (to add to it, Nanoha and Fate both hugged a distressed Hayate in the manga, Nanoha even drying of Hayate's tears with her own hands. Does that mean both of them love Hayate too?)

Firstly, Fate isn't Japanese. Secondly, culture and environment always colours fiction, even if you cannot see it (which surprises me). Many a time I have watched a series with my friends, and there is a moment when we turn to one another and grin, knowing that despite how futuristic/cosmopolitan the storyteller might be trying to make the plot and characters, they are Japanese at heart. I'm unsure what niche you've been watching, but bows are more common in anime than handshakes, katana have a presence that means more to the Japanese than to us, the tea ceremony features often, cicada song can be heard in many an outside scene, which again, means something more to the Japanese than to us, and foreigners are often portrayed, usually subconsciously, as inferior in some manner. Culture is far from irrelevant.

Notice, if you will, how other characters in Nanoha behave far more like Japanese people. I don't know if you've been to Japan, conversed with a Japanese individual, or researched their culture and history, but the storyteller's bias will always shine though. It's natural. There are certainly outgoing, extrovert Japanese; people very like Nanoha. But culture always has a grip; on the storyteller, on the animator, on the character; Nanoha may dry the tears on a friend's cheek, but the laws of culture than govern her have deeper root. I've been hugged rather spontaneously when I was looking very depressed by one of my Japanese friends - something so unexpected I was utterly lost for words, but when you spend time around them, they still never blow their nose in the street, never talk on their phone on a train or bus, always queue on the platform before they board a train, and would never, ever kiss in public.

[Deathkillz]

Hold on...I must have misheard...

A remake of the first season!?!? O.o''''

This means more Loli fate chan right? *Explodes*

This is the best news EVER! (now go make my year with news of a RM S3 for 2009).

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Preston

Plot death is a problem. Plot death may or may not be the problem a series has. Anime films often fix problems, whatever they may be. It's getting tiresome elaborating on the same thing, and I've provided two examples to turn conjecture to proper reasoning, and am certain I could easily find more. Lastly, I pointed out in depth there is indeed a problem to fix, and you concurred in an earlier post. Besides, to fix it in the time frame of the first season will draw attention back to the first season for the larger market the film opens up to. Money is a factor.

I am not disagreeing that there is nothing to fix, but rather disagreeing that trying to keep everything the same while making an S1 movie makes little sense. Yes, they can fix the romance in Nanoha by making an S1 movie, but that would mean altering the lines at which the sequels thread, thereby altering the main plot, which goes against your earlier statements that this movie won't touch the plot of the series.

Originally Posted by Preston

And no, it wouldn't be better to do a StrikerS movie; as you have previously argued many a time that films provide little time to working with;

I was actually talking about a post-strikers movie. Making an original movie leaves a lot more free time to work with rather then a re-edit. I should have been more clear about that, sorry.

Originally Posted by Preston

I believe that a fourth season will be forthcoming after this film, starting from a point fans would have though questionable (had this film not filled in a few blanks/rewritten some prior events). Besides, a personal preference on the part of the staff will sway things a little; not everything is cold, hard analysis; maybe they wished to return to a work they felt they could have done to a superior standard. Maybe, to them, the first season sits there, a blemish on the franchise, and they wish to correct it, hmm?

Possible. As I said, the first season is far more magical girlish compared to the later ones (which, really, is the only difference between the three seasons). Fixing this, however, requires major alterations to the plot.

Originally Posted by Preston

Firstly, Fate isn't Japanese. Secondly, culture and environment always colours fiction, even if you cannot see it (which surprises me). Many a time I have watched a series with my friends, and there is a moment when we turn to one another and grin, knowing that despite how futuristic/cosmopolitan the storyteller might be trying to make the plot and characters, they are Japanese at heart. I'm unsure what niche you've been watching, but bows are more common in anime than handshakes, katana have a presence that means more to the Japanese than to us, the tea ceremony features often, cicada song can be heard in many an outside scene, which again, means something more to the Japanese than to us, and foreigners are often portrayed, usually subconsciously, as inferior in some manner. Culture is far from irrelevant.

I'm not saying culture as a whole is irrelevant, but rather that the tiny things you describe as extraordinary are comonplace in anime. Like I said, Nanoha displays physical affection to pretty much anyone she meets. Fate, Hayate, Vita, Subaru, Teana, Vivio, all recieve a their share of physical affection from Nanoha (Vivio has an excuse though), so saying 'because Japanese are wary of physical contact, Nanoha doing so means she's in love with Fate' (which is what I read into it, do correct me if I'm wrong) sounds... jumpy.

... How did we get from talking about the movie to our opinions on NanoFate anyway?

[Kha]

*watches the spectacle with a bag of popcorn*

About time you guys noticed. Want some? >:3

As for the movie, to be honest, I'm taking it with a pinch of salt. Hopefully they'd do A's as well; it was the season that got me interested after all; despite being an ardent Fate fan, I've never finished S1.

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by Kha

[I]despite being an ardent Fate fan, I've never finished S1.

And you call yourself a fan!? ...hang your head in shame until you've finished it >.>

And before anyone starts, step away from mai waifu!

[Kha]

Basically, I watched it from the middle onwards, so I got all the Fate awesome I needed. The earlier parts were...

*continues hugging Fate-chan* >:3

[Preston]

Originally Posted by Keroko

I am not disagreeing that there is nothing to fix, but rather disagreeing that trying to keep everything the same while making an S1 movie makes little sense. Yes, they can fix the romance in Nanoha by making an S1 movie, but that would mean altering the lines at which the sequels thread, thereby altering the main plot, which goes against your earlier statements that this movie won't touch the plot of the series.

I think all the process of fixing would involve, like I said previously, some new footage placed between familiar scenes, some addition to dialog, a slight change to tone or reaction or facial expression here and there, all which add credence to the already conspicuous continuity. It would not require any radical plot change, and Seven could just claim they omitted it previously, or, they couldn't spare the budget. Everything comes out nice, simple, and profitable.

Originally Posted by Keroko

I was actually talking about a post-strikers movie. Making an original movie leaves a lot more free time to work with rather then a re-edit. I should have been more clear about that, sorry.

I understand you now. Yes, a post-StrikerS film could do much to fix the same problem. I can only put the decision to return to season one for the film as the studio's preference (they're more familiar with that scene, and MGLN did stem from it), the wish to rebuild it to a greater quality (as I have previously theorised), and the marketing benefits. StrikerS was more popular, so there will be people that have seen that and not S1 and A's; maybe Seven is doing the film for their benefit, to fill in the gaps, as well as luring them back to sample their older works.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Possible. As I said, the first season is far more magical girlish compared to the later ones (which, really, is the only difference between the three seasons). Fixing this, however, requires major alterations to the plot.

Not so. They can omit some scenes, change some villains, and yes, alter the plot somewhat, but nothing need be done that would damage continuity, Especially if they intend to do another film for A's (which one could consider implied by the title of this film). They can have everything rounded off nice and tidily for progression onto a possible fourth series.

Originally Posted by Keroko

I'm not saying culture as a whole is irrelevant, but rather that the tiny things you describe as extraordinary are comonplace in anime. Like I said, Nanoha displays physical affection to pretty much anyone she meets. Fate, Hayate, Vita, Subaru, Teana, Vivio, all recieve a their share of physical affection from Nanoha (Vivio has an excuse though), so saying 'because Japanese are wary of physical contact, Nanoha doing so means she's in love with Fate' (which is what I read into it, do correct me if I'm wrong) sounds... jumpy.

It is a component of a far broader argument. For example, from the perspective of many a (particularly male) Westerner, Nanoha and Fate's behavior would be considered conspicuous to varying degrees. Take this perspective, and look at it through Japanese eyes. Even if the viewers consider both Nanoha and Fate foreigners, and judge them to be more comfortable with this sort of thing, they are still going to raise their eyebrows higher than their Western counterparts. All it does is lend credence to existing argument. I am not jumping to any conclusions here, but I would like to keep this portion of discussion brief.

Originally Posted by Keroko

... How did we get from talking about the movie to our opinions on NanoFate anyway?

I am... unsure. I think it can be considered on-topic though, due to the direction our discussion has taken.

Originally Posted by Kha

*continues hugging Fate-chan* >:3

Them be fighting words. Don't force my hand.

[Deathkillz]

Right, that's two name on my "to kill with a nail bat" list, who else wants to join? ^^