Remembering Tiananmen, 20 years on

[JMvS]

Originally Posted by yezhanquan

They did run some camps. I remember reading that Qinghai was compared to Siberia in "gulag" terms. For the most part, they're closed now.

I'll quote George Cohen of the NYT:

"The best should not be the enemy of the good. The rapid rise of China and Vietnam, accounting between them for some 20 percent of humanity, has ushered hundreds of millions of people from poverty since totalitarian Communism fell. The West is in no position to say it knows better."

Read his article here: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/25/op...ohen.html?_r=1

Aren't the laogai pretty much functioning to this day? Or do you count them as regular prison facilities?

[SaintessHeart]

Laogai is counted as regular prison facilities. In fact, most of Asia's prisons work pretty much the same way as China's.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Thingle

Like I said, the numbers aren't as important as the motive. The Nazis pretty much killed people for a stupid reason... at least they aren't killing anymore (not counting skinheads)

Can't say the same for the commies.

What you called people who were not killed (directly or indirectly) by the Commie and the Facists then?
Right, they called them starvation, war, poverty, dictators victims. Sorry forgot about that.


Oh wait. What do they called those who are not Communists or Facists then? There should be a term for it, and i always failed to define one.

[justavisitor]

Hi all

I read many posts here, they are all great and it lets me feel the need to share my opinion as well

Basically, I find what the chinese government says is really absurd...she did terrible things in 50s and 60s, many many citizens died because of that government, and then she finally started the economy in late 70s, then she is now implying that if not for the government, you guys can't enjoy the success. I mean, hello?? she wasted 30 years before improving, and everyone should thank her?? So what the students did in 1989 was completely right...they were not trying to overthrow the government (but I think they should have), they were trying to introduce democracy into the country..with democracy, no one in the right mind would let that party rule after the terrible things in 50s and 60s

Of course democracy may not work that well in some countries, but don't we want to look for the best?? U.S, Canada, UK, and many countries in Europe, while not perfect, at least those ppl aren't living in fear (most of them)...

Sometimes I feel the chinese are cursed for having a communist government...the last thing I want to say is, unless the party introduces some sort of internal checking/democracy right now, otherwise there is a good chance the government will be overthrown somewhat violently as corruption and the gap between the rich and poor keeps ongoing

[yezhanquan]

Again, the whole ordeal with Mao made the CCP realise that they have to enforce the "first among equals" rule.

In 1989, inflation was particularly high and there were economic difficulties. Also, corruption was through the roof (same as today, if not worse). So, the students were fed up, and rightly so.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

Hi all

I read many posts here, they are all great and it lets me feel the need to share my opinion as well

Basically, I find what the chinese government says is really absurd...she did terrible things in 50s and 60s, many many citizens died because of that government, and then she finally started the economy in late 70s, then she is now implying that if not for the government, you guys can't enjoy the success. I mean, hello?? she wasted 30 years before improving, and everyone should thank her?? So what the students did in 1989 was completely right...they were not trying to overthrow the government (but I think they should have), they were trying to introduce democracy into the country..with democracy, no one in the right mind would let that party rule after the terrible things in 50s and 60s

Of course democracy may not work that well in some countries, but don't we want to look for the best?? U.S, Canada, UK, and many countries in Europe, while not perfect, at least those ppl aren't living in fear (most of them)...

Sometimes I feel the chinese are cursed for having a communist government...the last thing I want to say is, unless the party introduces some sort of internal checking/democracy right now, otherwise there is a good chance the government will be overthrown somewhat violently as corruption and the gap between the rich and poor keeps ongoing

In defend for Chinese goverment (i actually joking here, don't take it seriously ^^), they believed they have democracy too. My professor said the Chinese actually have a different way to rank how democratic a nation is, and well, as you can guess, they rank somewhere top when US drop pretty low (i want to see that list too).


The way for the Chinese communist government to reform? The only possibility i have in mind now is either a revolution or India with its non-communism government can top China by miles. Otherwise they have enough propaganda to keep their citizens in line, i guess

[justavisitor]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

In defend for Chinese goverment (i actually joking here, don't take it seriously ^^), they believed they have democracy too. My professor said the Chinese actually have a different way to rank how democratic a nation is, and well, as you can guess, they rank somewhere top when US drop pretty low (i want to see that list too).


The way for the Chinese communist government to reform? The only possibility i have in mind now is either a revolution or India with its non-communism government can top China by miles. Otherwise they have enough propaganda to keep their citizens in line, i guess

I really wonder the effectiveness of the propaganda tho..sure nowadays the new generation from china probably doesn't even know that 6.4 existed, and some of them know 6.4 even say that military oppression was necessary (I swear I saw it in some other forum), but do they really say what their hearts feel?? The day the communist party got overthrown, many ppl will change the side and blame the communist party XD

so I really don't know if propaganda works at all, on the other hand, tho, I know some chinese tv stations keep broadcasting some ancient chinese history (in drama), and by using those successful emperors as a reference, it tries to imply that in order for a united china, some "sacrifices" are necessary...(such an evil propaganda XD)

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

I really wonder the effectiveness of the propaganda tho..sure nowadays the new generation from china probably doesn't even know that 6.4 existed, and some of them know 6.4 even say that military oppression was necessary (I swear I saw it in some other forum), but do they really say what their hearts feel?? The day the communist party got overthrown, many ppl will change the side and blame the communist party XD

so I really don't know if propaganda works at all, on the other hand, tho, I know some chinese tv stations keep broadcasting some ancient chinese history (in drama), and by using those successful emperors as a reference, it tries to imply that in order for a united china, some "sacrifices" are necessary...(such an evil propaganda XD)

I agree at your points. Except i believe collapsed regime always took the blame, as it's not easy to admit "yeah back then i support them, but not now since they collapsed...."

[Tri-ring]

The worst thing that can happen right now is the collapse of CCP which will trigger the dismantlement of PRC which may result to civil war at worst case senario.
The ripple effect is also unsettling because some may unite with DPRK at the worst possible time.

[Vexx]

The Chinese government still views *any* religion as dangerous simply because the views of a religious leadership may not align with the State. It is a very basic "who's your daddy?" fight for mental loyalty. The Falun Gong are not angels, btw, they have many attributes of a cult rather than a religion (and yeah, we could argue all day over the differences). I see *why* the government fears the group even though I abhor the way they deal with it. The Tibetan situation is the largest example of the same sort of issue -- "who is in charge of the mindshare of a society?".

Spoiler for a bit off topic comment about the related Tibetan issues:

Many supporters of Tibet's self-determination don't realize the aristocracy and oppressive feudal society that dominated the land before the Chinese asserted control. The aristocratic faction are the ones committing what violence you see and, just as in many other cultures, they used the prevailing religion of Buddhism to keep the people in their place. In my view, the Chinese are completely shooting at the wrong target by demonizing the Dalai Lama and should be partnering with him to shut down this faction. It *should* be a win-win for the peasant population rather than the "either or" it currently stands as.

[Thingle]

Originally Posted by Tri-ring

The worst thing that can happen right now is the collapse of CCP which will trigger the dismantlement of PRC which may result to civil war at worst case senario.

Maybe it's my fear of China, but its best if they are divided up into multiple states. They can have republic of manchuria side by side with republic of guandong and republic of Xinjiang . That makes us other asians less uneasy about their potential imperialistic pursuits which they will be able to pursue while being the big state they are.

The DPRK is feared only by you westerners and japan and korea. China is a much bigger threat for the people further down south. The north koreans never sent their boats to fish on our waters.

[Lathdrinor]

Originally Posted by Thingle

Maybe it's my fear of China, but its best if they are divided up into multiple states. They can have republic of manchuria side by side with republic of guandong and republic of Xinjiang . That makes us other asians less uneasy about their potential imperialistic pursuits which they will be able to pursue while being the big state they are.

The DPRK is feared only by you westerners and japan and korea. China is a much bigger threat for the people further down south. The north koreans never sent their boats to fish on our waters.

It might make sense from your point of view, but the whole reason China is a big state in the first place is so that it can throw its weight around. Being a small state means being afraid of big states (of which China is not the only one - see US, Russia, India, etc). It is this logic that compels the formation of big states.

But if European history is of any indication, division into similarly sized states doesn't mean states stop having imperialistic pursuits/threatening each other. It just makes the resulting conflicts even bloodier, since now the countries are roughly equally matched.

It is for this reason that the balance of power theory of geopolitics fell out of favor, and was replaced by superpower detente and then American hegemony.

IMO, if Southeast Asians feel threatened by China's size, the better solution is for SEA to unite (ie a stronger, tighter ASEAN), than for China to divide. More unity in this world is likely a good thing; more division, likely not.

[Thingle]

Originally Posted by Lathdrinor

IMO, if Southeast Asians feel threatened by China's size, the better solution is for SEA to unite (ie a stronger, tighter ASEAN), than for China to divide. More unity in this world is likely a good thing; more division, likely not.

This is tricky. Possible only if Burma is kicked out. At the moment, that country is a dead weight to ASEAN. Totally useless member state. It can't even be trusted to stick to its word. That junta is a cancer to any regional integration.

[Vexx]

Gah... Burma is a whole separate subject of how arrogant idiocy blossoms no matter what part of the political spectrum is in charge.

[Tri-ring]

Originally Posted by Thingle

Maybe it's my fear of China, but its best if they are divided up into multiple states. They can have republic of manchuria side by side with republic of guandong and republic of Xinjiang . That makes us other asians less uneasy about their potential imperialistic pursuits which they will be able to pursue while being the big state they are.

The DPRK is feared only by you westerners and japan and korea. China is a much bigger threat for the people further down south. The north koreans never sent their boats to fish on our waters.

A splintered mainland China will likely be more hazardous than an united one since you'll have more to negotiate to balance relationships. The phrase "An enemy of an enemy is a friend" can also turn to "A friend of an enemy is an enemy".
Also in the splintering process of the military organization will result into chaos placing mass amount of various weapons in the regional black market fueling piracy and terrorism with some former soldiers becoming one.

The old greek story of the teeth of a slain dragon springing out to form an army of the undead bringing numerous havoc instead of one large havoc resembles in someway of what will happen if dismantlement of PRC to have occur.

[Shadow Kira01]

Originally Posted by Thingle

Maybe it's my fear of China, but its best if they are divided up into multiple states. They can have republic of manchuria side by side with republic of guandong and republic of Xinjiang . That makes us other asians less uneasy about their potential imperialistic pursuits which they will be able to pursue while being the big state they are.

I don't think it is a good idea to divide China into multiple Chinese nations as that you cannot be certain that these nations won't have similar foreign policies as that of the current China. More over, it can also developed to a new "Soviet Union" which consists of multiple nations. Once a common objective is accomplished, these possible friendly nations may convert into new enemy nations as that they are there for themselves. In other words, it is better to make the collapsed PRC into a DRC rather than multiple nations, wouldn't want to see a second "Soviet Union".

The DPRK is feared only by you westerners and japan and korea. China is a much bigger threat for the people further down south. The north koreans never sent their boats to fish on our waters.

Let's put it this way..

North Korea is an ally of China and they are a threat to regional stability involving Japan, South Korea, and the United States. China is an ally of North Korea and they are a threat to the existence of Southeast Asian nations, especially Phillipines over a variety of issues. A number of Southeast Asian nations are American allies.

[LeoXiao]

China is at a very, very dangerous time currently. The CCP wants stability of its own power, but when one takes a look at the state of Chinese society, it's clear that not only are things anything but stable, but that the CCP is not even functioning coherently any longer. Corruption has gotten to such a level (as in other nations) that every single aspect of society includes some amount of it. The Party itself, which is full of corrupt officials (I'd say that at least 95% of them are corrupt, they'd have to be in order to be there), does not even make decisions that follow the laws of pragmatism that most governments adhere to any longer.

The leaders in the Politburo have no concern whatsoever with well-being of the governmental structure; as they themselves have to work with the corruption which itself has formed a complete system. There are practically no honest officials, all of them are greedy bastards. I would sum it up with this quote I found somewhere that I cant recall:
"The village representatives tell lies to the community and the community representatives lie to the county level officials. The lies do not stop there. The lies continue from level to level, up to the State Council. The State Council gives directions, which will then move back, level by level, until it reaches the lowest level. Once the officials have read the directive, they will go to have dinner and the directives become empty words from their mouths."
At this point, the whole governmental system has all but collapsed. Therefore, it is no wonder why the leaders are all focused on the economy; that is the only real way they have to hold power. In this sense the Party still exists, though it has abandoned its political form. Therefore, it cannot afford to stop controlling the press, military, and wishes of the people, for if it were to truly let go there is the possibility that someone may start some grassroots movement or rebellion, which all the top officials, no matter how corrupt, know is a threat to them.

But I want to elaborate on the Party as an important shell, one that has substance. If it does not really control very much anymore, why is it still significant? Because the populace of China has been taught to worship the CCP the time of Mao, this phenomenon of Party-Worship has become the successor to traditional Chinese culture. I cannot give any concrete examples of this, but in my (and my parent's) experience, when we talk to our Chinese friends and acquaintances, you can talk to them all you want about how unfair and corrupt the society and people are, but once you mention the CCP, they will have nothing to do with it and instantly they will give you an awkward silence, or insist that the Party is reforming and that without the Party there can be no China, or some variation of that, or something implying it. To me, I think this way of thinking is exactly what keeps the CCP around. It is also what makes the CCP significant. Yes, it is a symbol. Or, a hallucinogen.

At this point, it may seem that the CCP is a good thing that at least can hold the corrupt, souless (except for the common respect of the Party) mess that China is together. In my view this is completely and absolutely wrong. China's system cannot hold forever, and it is the proles peasants, along with the simple fact that people are in fact not comfortable with their sickly society, that will inevitably bring down the entire rotten system. The system is incredibly fragile as it is, and once something (like an economic collapse) pushes it enough, the supports will break and the country will collapse, with the Party going first. As said before, a collapse of the country could lead to a civil war, not a good outcome. But this collapse is inevitable. The system cannot stay like it is for much longer. Putting it off through various means (including the June 4th Massacre or the economic growth) will only make the fall worse, because the longer the Party stays around, the more completely it will blend into society, and thus, when it collapses late, the Chinese nation will have a smaller chance of being able to go back to a more normal society, and thus the chance of say, a long and destructive civil war is increased.

As much as I think that the sooner the CCP collapses, the better it will be in the long run, I do not think there is any way for some political group(s) to suddenly gain power and overthrow the Party, as was suggested by Shadow Minato.
This is simply not going to happen, since any movement will be crushed by the powerful police and military system that does exist. It does not matter whether it is the Party or some corrupt officials, someone will send armed forces to crush it.

I should probably quote you right now:

In fact, if the remnants of the foolish victims of tyranny had taken it more seriously, they had a perfect opportunity during the Olympics in which the world started a mass movement that was picking up quite a pace and since China had on their end had taken the steps that they usually do made it a plus on the ones performing the mass movement. Tibet was under an invasion in which people were slaughtered by rogues disguising as soldiers of justice, while the Uyghur region was also in quite a fix in which a revolt broke out. At the same time, the ordinary civilians such as farmers who had their lands taken away and not getting compensated at all, adding to the roster would be the non-profit organization Falun Gong who also have a huge number of members could probably stir some real deal up. If only they were actually as serious as they claim and that they would fight alongside each other with one goal and objective, they would have already succeeded and PRC would no longer exist this day. Thus, these people who are seeking the support and aid from other nations do not deserve any because they toss away a perfect opportunity and are not the slightest serious about it at all. Why should the world even care about these fools? Why should the world provide financial support to them?

These groups cannot do anything to actually overthrow the Party. They don't have weapons, they don't have enough members, they don't have enough potential support; they have nothing at all going for them except time.

Now you brought up some groups:
Tibetans= they can't do anything; they're only about a million at most, and there are more Han Chinese in Tibet anyway. The most they can do is fight the police, which is only an annoyance and only kills more Tibetans and doesn't actually accomplish anything. I support their efforts, but they're futile.
Tiananmen Students= There are only a few thousand of these guys, and they are too scared to do anything anymore; most of them weren't that hardcore in the first place. Additionally, most of them even think what they did was a stupid thing and that the CCP is "needed for China to keep rising." I've met some of these guys even, they're useless as far as overthrowing anyone goes.
Uighurs: same problems as the Tibetans. Except they'll get even less support from the West, since they're Muslim.

Which brings me to Falun Gong. FLG is different for a few reasons. First, they are (or were) big, with the Chinese government itself estimating the group's size at around 70-100 million. It's most likely much smaller now, due to the crackdown. But there's a catch: Falun Gong does not have the form of a political or opposition group. It doesn't have the organization needed to accomplish clear, specific goals. It isn't even really an organization, since there's no membership or chain of command. Most importantly, Falun Gong has no wish to replace the CCP. the only reason it has for even being in opposition in the first place is because it suddenly became illegal for no apparent reason and their people started getting jailed and killed. What FLG (or should I say, its adherents) want is simply to be able to practice their beliefs freely again, and to be able to spread it to others. This poses no threat to the CCP, and so therefore FLG cannot do anything to bring the Party down.

Furthermore, I am in fact aware that FLG does have this whole "quit the CCP" thing going, and that "so-and-so many millions of people have quit the Party and its affiliations." However, the point is not to make the CCP collapse as it is just a part of the "truth clarification" campaign that's been running since 1999 (when the persecution of FLG began), to make individual people aware of the facts of the persecution, since they feel that most people (especially Chinese) have an inaccurate idea of FLG and the situation at hand. Telling people to quit the CCP is just an extension of this, since naturally people who understand the nature of a government that would ban a peaceful and nonpolitical group as FLG would be more likely to understand their (FLG's) POV.

Personally, I feel that FLG's approach is the best form of resistance, as it makes Chinese people aware of the fact that the CCP is really just a cancerous growth leeching on China (and not something that is actually needed for the country's well-being), but at the same time it is not a normal movement in the sense that there is no violence, no obstruction of society, and very formless, like water, and therefore hard to crush. When the CCP does collapse by itself, if there are enough people who have any understanding of the truth, they will be the ones who make it easier for China to rise again in the future.

Maybe it's my fear of China, but its best if they are divided up into multiple states. They can have republic of manchuria side by side with republic of guandong and republic of Xinjiang . That makes us other asians less uneasy about their potential imperialistic pursuits which they will be able to pursue while being the big state they are.

Ha, lol, that's not going to happen. Even if China does break up, they will just have a warring states period, during which some unfortunate bordering nations might get swept in and when the whole ordeal is over, become part of China for a few hundred years or so. It's happened to Korea a few times, for example.

[Lathdrinor]

*chuckle*

It always boggles my mind that people would put their hopes for China's salvation on a new age religious cult. The CCP, though self-serving and ruthless, is at least filled with somewhat competent technocrats who are able to grasp the current geopolitical climate sufficiently to understand how to game the system and get away with it. What can a group of qi gong mystics do in terms of leading a country? We see everywhere the sordid results of theocratic orthodoxy and yet people think that it would work in China, the land of uneducated peasants prone to violent mass movements with some of the highest body counts in history.

I personally don't care what people believe, be it FLG or Christianity or Buddhism, and insofar as FLG serves as an example of the CCP's religious oppression, it could be used as an impetus for change. But mass movements based on religion frequently get out of control when not curbed by secular leadership. There's a tendency for figures high up in the religious hierarchy to use such movements for their own political gains. The end result of that is seldom savory. Taiping Rebellion, anyone?

[LeoXiao]

Originally Posted by Lathdrinor

*chuckle*

It always boggles my mind that people would put their hopes for China's salvation on a new age religious cult. The CCP, though self-serving and ruthless, is at least filled with somewhat competent technocrats who are able to grasp the current geopolitical climate sufficiently to understand how to game the system and get away with it. What can a bunch of qi gong mystics do in terms of running a country? We see everywhere the sordid results of theocratic orthodoxy and yet people think that it would work in China, the land of uneducated peasants prone to violent mass movements with some of the highest body counts in history.

Taiping Rebellion, anyone?

ich habe dir gerade erklärt, warum mir die FLG-Gruppe gefällt, und-

Did you just ignore the good half of my post? It looks like you just further proved what I wrote.

[Lathdrinor]

You quoted an old version of my post. Re-read it. My point is simple: FLG might have transformed itself, in the West, into a protest against religious persecution by the CCP, but within China, where it began, it was a new age religious movement that had the beginnings of mass appeal. Given how such movements could easily become delusional (since they are based, above all, on religious faith rather than secular reason), "faith" in their ability to enact the "right" kind of resistance seems dubious.

Sure, FLG might get people to quit the CCP ... Only to join the FLG.