Accel World - Character Discussion - Takumu

[Sunder the Gold]

Originally Posted by tusjecht

Okay I concede.

And the last part, TRIPLE LCS...hell, that's a Pillar Of Autumn in your hands. Kudos for bringing that up.

Now imagine what a Red avatar could do, considering that they're better at ranged attacks than Blues should be.

As a Blue, Cyan Pile should be tougher, stronger and faster on foot than a Red avatar. On the balance, his firepower should be comparatively pathetic next to theirs. If he had both advantages, he'd be broken as hell.


Heck, I'm thinking up a heavyweight Red avatar who's his own "Immoble Fortress", rather than wrapping a tank up around a lightweight. The guy uses a bazooka, and perhaps has a minigun/gattling cannon for a special attack.

[Tusjecht]

That...that's just mean, man. ._. bazooka falls into my idea of ranged, and gatling guns are definitely short-ranged, the accuracy at range is only because of the sheer number of bullets in the air. Even is I was going triple LCS on this guy, I would bet on winning.

[Sunder the Gold]

Can anyone recall an occassion where Cyan Pile fired off more than one normal Pile Driver shot?

The Light Novels say that the Driver is like the Gale Thruster in having an independent energy gauge seperate from the Duel Avatar's Special Meter. This would probably be analogous to the fuel tank of Ash Roller's motorcycle (which actually uses virtual gasoline) and ammunition-based weapons (which actually have limited stores of ammunition).

Beam-weapons likewise have something analogous in that they overheat; a point where their weapon becomes too hot to operate safely, or at all. The weapon becomes "full" of something (heat) rather than empty of something, but the mechnical concept of the "Cooldown Timer" is the same.


The point is, it's possible that Cyan Pile simply cannot fire off consecutive pile-shots, and I can't recall any fight in which he did. Generally, after the first, he uses his Splash Stinger or Lightning Cyan Spike.

Being unable to spam the driver helps explain the fights in which we have seem him NOT use it. Like the two first fights involving Powder Bear and Amber Penguin.


Sky Raker was able to upgrade the basic capabilities of her Gale Thruster, though, without needing to choose Special Abilities centered around it. In her case, she just increased the range possible with a single jump.

Theoretically, then, rather than purchasing Spiral Gravity Driver, Takumu could have reduced the Pile Driver's cooldown time, or increased the number of times he can shoot between cool downs, or simply increased the speed/power of the shot. There's also the potential to increase the range, but I think LCS covers that well enough (over 50 meters!).

(The normal extention is a single meter.)

[judasmartel]

Triple LCS is still the bomb for Cyan Pile, though.

[Sunder the Gold]

Originally Posted by judasmartel

Triple LCS is still the bomb for Cyan Pile, though.

Well, that also depends on how quickly Cyan Pile can recover from firing LCS and how quickly he can unleash the next one.

It's not dependent on the Driver's cooldown, or on its normal retraction speed, but it might have its own retraction speed.


Still, if Pile can properly land one LSC*, it could easily knock someone off-balance enough to give him time to land a second, which would easily knock them so far off-balance that he can use his newly acquired energy to land a third.



* Which, come to think of it, I haven't ever seen him... No, wait. He DID manage to hit someone successively on screen. Once.

It was his first fight with Dusk Taker, after Silver Crow injured him in the air. Pile fired a surprise LSC and Taker couldn't react fast enough, and was badly skewered.

But Takumu didn't fire a second shot. Either because he only had the energy for one, and the returns weren't enough for a second, or because he forgot that Overkill Is The Best Kill.

[Sunder the Gold]

Oh! Something interesting from the Light Novels.


Whenever Cyan Pile's color is given more detail than "blue", it is always described as indigo-blue. I think the author may have goofed when picking an English color-word, and very much intended to place Pile between Blue and Purple, rather than slightly Green.

But he must have figured it out later, which is why the official color wheel, appearing in one of the much-later novels, places Cyan where it ought to be, even though Pile is supposed to tend towards Purple.


All in all, it reminds me of how Kinoko Nasu intended for Arc and Ciel's names to be a reference to "Arc'en'Ciel", the French phrase for "rainbow" and the name of a popular band.

Nasu meant for Ciel's name to be French for "Bow", since she is French and her codename is Bow. Allegedly, he was distraught to learn that she was instead named "Sky".


Takumu and Cyan Pile himself bear no small resemblence to Ciel. Blue-eyed, blue-garbed, glasses-wearing characters armed with pile-drivers and smaller projectile blades.

[Tusjecht]

I rewatched the Pile vs Crow fight; it appears Pile is indeed capable of firing his pile fairly fast. Once, to take off Crow's arm, and shortly after that, he fired it again when Crow was trying to escape into the lift.

[Sunder the Gold]

Shorter than the Gale Thruster's ten minute cooldown, but possibly just long as the time between the two discharges.

We have never seen him shoot right after a retraction.

[Sunder the Gold]

What do you think Takumu spent Cyan Pile's third bonus on?

At Level 4, he would have gained and spent three bonuses. Two were used to buy Splash Stinger and Spiral Gravity Driver, so that leaves one more.


Truly, being Takumu is suffering. Not only is SGD more worthless than it should possibly fairly be, it rather seems like the author ignores the third bonus.

Unless Cyan Pile was somehow weaker before, or his armor was less durable, or his Pile Driver had worse range.

Or maybe he spent the third bonus on Lightning Cyan Spike, either to increase the range or reduce the cost? That seems plausible to me.


Even that aside, his one Incarnate Skill completely changes his combat strategy rather than enhancing it. He can't even use his Special Meter while the Pile Driver is transformed, unless the Cyan Blade has some additional properties.

Hmm. What if the Cyan Blade could briefly extend itself, as per a normal Driver shot? Or even execute a Lightning Cyan Spike, whereby the blade shoots forward like lightning to stab a distant target?

[Shiyumi]

At Level 4, he would have gained and spent three bonuses. Two were used to buy Splash Stinger and Spiral Gravity Driver, so that leaves one more.

Why did you forget/exclude Lightning Cyan Spike? The novel even specify it was a Lv4 skill.

Hmm. What if the Cyan Blade could briefly extend itself, as per a normal Driver shot? Or even execute a Lightning Cyan Spike, whereby the blade shoots forward like lightning to stab a distant target?

Cyan Blade is an IS. As long as Taku will it, it can do anything(but this a lot easier said than done). And since it is an IS(overwrite system), even if Pile-Driver damage, it will be fine. Lost-can't happen, really. Steal-trick/force him direct connect and give it away(only way)? If that what happened then it can't be help.

[Sunder the Gold]

If he didn't have Lighnting Cyan Spike as his first special attack, what WAS his first special attack?

He calls Splash Stinger his Lv2 move, and it doesn't seem to require any SP.

SGD is pathetic enough to be his Lv1 special attack, but it doesn't fit Takumu's desire closely enough to be the attack he started with. Lightning Cyan Spike is much more clearly the manifestation of his fear and wish.

Not that Headbutt really reflects Haruyuki, either. Both are very weak and awkward attacks, really.


Remembering how Noumi could use his unnamed IS skill to form various shapes, it does seem like Takumu could make the Cyan Blade extend, and reach great lengths rapidly. Especially using his imagination to manifest his experience with Lightning Cyan Spike.

[Tusjecht]

Originally Posted by Shiyumi

Why did you forget/exclude Lightning Cyan Spike? The novel even specify it was a Lv4 skill.

Cyan Blade is an IS. As long as Taku will it, it can do anything(but this a lot easier said than done). And since it is an IS(overwrite system), even if Pile-Driver damage, it will be fine. Lost-can't happen, really. Steal-trick/force him direct connect and give it away(only way)? If that what happened then it can't be help.

Level 4 skill? Source please Shiyumi. Neither the chinese wiki nor the LNs say its his Level 4 skill.

Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold

If he didn't have Lighnting Cyan Spike as his first special attack, what WAS his first special attack?

He calls Splash Stinger his Lv2 move, and it doesn't seem to require any SP.

SGD is pathetic enough to be his Lv1 special attack, but it doesn't fit Takumu's desire closely enough to be the attack he started with. Lightning Cyan Spike is much more clearly the manifestation of his fear and wish.

Not that Headbutt really reflects Haruyuki, either. Both are very weak and awkward attacks, really.


Remembering how Noumi could use his unnamed IS skill to form various shapes, it does seem like Takumu could make the Cyan Blade extend, and reach great lengths rapidly. Especially using his imagination to manifest his experience with Lightning Cyan Spike.

Lightning Cyan Blade?

If combined with the triple LCS upgrade, any opponent should be openly glad that IS is forbidden by the kings.

[Sunder the Gold]

Originally Posted by tusjecht

Level 4 skill? Source please Shiyumi. Neither the chinese wiki nor the LNs say its his Level 4 skill.

The narration of Volume 3, Chapter 13 refers to Lightning Cyan Spike as a Level 4 attack.

Which honestly makes sense, considering its crazy range, insane speed, damaging power AND cheap cost.

And Spiral Gravity Driver as a Level 1 special attack makes so much sense when compared to Silver Crow's Level 1 special attack, Headbutt. Both moves are awkward to use and not terribly powerful even when successfully deployed.

(LN Headbutt, that is. In the anime it is made to seem like Silver Crow defeats Ash Roller with a single Headbutt, but in the LN Roller actually gets off his bike and engages in a doomed hand-to-hand fight.)

Still, despite accusations that Takumu was over-diversifying Cyan Pile rather than specializing, it's hard to see how Lightning Cyan Spike is anything but playing to his specialty. It's basically just "regular Pile Driver, but BETTER!"

Hmm. Wait.

This still means that one of Cyan Pile's upgrades is unaccounted for. If he STARTED with Spiral Gravity Driver, then chose Splash Stinger at Level 2 and Lightning Cyan Spike at Level 4, what did he choose at level 3?

Did he actually get LCS at Level 3 and upgrade it at Level 4?

Or maybe he upgraded Splash Stinger?

Or maybe he upgraded the basic Pile Driver in some way? Did it used to have shorter range or a longer recharge period?

Lightning Cyan Blade?

If combined with the triple LCS upgrade, any opponent should be openly glad that IS is forbidden by the kings.

The idea of Triple LCS isn't having an explicit upgrade for it, but in making use of the attack's low SP cost and the staggering effect of a first successful strike.

Shoot an opponent, make him stagger/flinch from the force and pain, then shoot him again while his ability to dodge or defend is hindered, and then use the SP gained from damage-infliction to fire off a third shot.

Of course, it may well be that LCS can't be fired so quickly after a shot; and gamebalance might even demand that each consecutive shot takes longer to recover from. And we don't even know exactly how long Pile needs to recover from the first shot.

So, he MIGHT need an explicit upgrade to make it work. However, if such an upgrade isn't offered in the first place...

Plus, if that kind of upgrade IS offered, just imagine the OTHER upgrades offered.


But yes, the idea of executing a Lightning Cyan Blade attack is rather terrifying. Of course, everyone else's Incarnate Skills would be terrifying, too.

[Shiyumi]

I'm quoting myself from other thread

There is no hidden ability in Accel World, it not just to appear. When Roller was Lv1 has nothing except the bike(just a normal bike with no additions at that time). Crow still has Punch, Kick and SP Headbutt. And a Lv2, full HP Roller still lost to a Lv1,damaged Crow(without Flight) in a first fight.
Even Lv1 Pile has nothing except his stinging attack, and Crow probably able to win again him(accord what happen in Vol1). The system decide that Crown Lv1 is fine without Flight. Actually it was rather unfair when he got Flight at Lv1, almost no Lv1 can win against him. That was the benefit to learn Passive Skill during battle, include doesn't cost bonus(even through it rather hard, especially if you not yet known the skill name. Its principle probably similar to what Raker said "You did not fly because of the wings. It’s the opposite. So that you can fly, you made the wings materialize.", a pseudo way learning IS skill.)

[Sunder the Gold]

That has nothing to do with Cyan Pile. Why repost it here?

[Sunder the Gold]

I've been assuming that Spiral Gravity Driver can only be used to fire downwards, because that's how Pile used it the one time and because it has the word "Gravity" in the name.

What if that's not true? What if Cyan Pile can fire it in any direction? If so, it could possibly make for a useful First Special Attack.

I've already mentioned in this thread that Lightning Cyan Spike ought to be very bad about overpenetration, piercing through a target and continuing to extend without forcing the victim backwards (much) or inflicting (much) further damage.

Spiral Gravity Driver doesn't have that problem AT ALL. Since it uses a wide, blunt striking surface, the weapon will pick the victim up and shove them backwards with its full force. The blunt surface alone will inflict less critical damage with the initial impact, but it can create additional impacts by forcing the victim into (and through) various other objects... just as Cyan Pile blasted Silver Crow through many floors before finally grinding him into a surface too hard to break.

And of course, Spiral Gravity Driver grants Cyan Pile an even greater advantage: Range. By forcing his opponent back, Cyan Pile can push another Blue avatar outside of the close-range they need, which gives Pile more opportunities to snipe them with the Pile Driver, Splash Stinger or Lightning Cyan Spike.

It would be hilarious to see if the SGD could be used to blast an opponent into the air, to watch them come falling down. That, or using the SGD at even a slight downward angle, would be the best way to use the attack against opponents with better long range attacks than Cyan Pile's own.


This all still leaves the Spiral Gravity Driver's greatest weakness: It's hideously obvious. Not only does it require 30-40% SP and noticeably gulp it all away to prepare the move, but it requires a telegraphed and very awkward transformation sequence to convert the weapon.

Because of its ability to create range against other Blue avatars that have Pile cornered, SGD would be very valuable as a desperation move to turn the tables in a fight that's going badly... except that Pile would need enough time to prepare the attack, and would then need to use it successfully against an opponent who can see him getting it ready. That doesn't seem likely.

The special attack is also inefficient or ineffective against long-ranged opponents. Pile doesn't want to push them away to where they can attack him with impunity. Moreover, if he was already close enough to use SGD against them, he might as well forget his clumsy special attack and just go after them with his normal attacks.

On the other hand, SGD -does- have much longer range than his Pile Driver's normal extending attack, so he can use it to strike and stagger opponents outside of his normal range. If he smashes them them into a sufficiently sturdy object, he could perhaps stun them long enough to close the range, or perhaps even inflict enough damage for a KO. Especially if the object they strike collapses on top them.

It could very well be worth an upgrade bonus to make the Spiral Gravity Driver transformation more instantaneous, so that the attack can be issued with less forewarning.

[Tusjecht]

If that was the case, the the sheer damage produced by a single SGD could definitely make up for the difficulty in landing a hit...

It's like shooting no-scope sniper rifle shots. The small targeting reticle, extremely slow firing rate, and lack of ammo are the sacrifices you make for the ability to kill with a single shot, depending on where you're shooting at.

Pile may have even intended to kill Taker this way, by trapping him in the corridor which he couldn't destroy, blocking the only exit, and trapping him with an SGD strike and pushing him through to the other side.

...and the overwhelming advantage would still be in - Takumu's favour, because the stage is designed around the school building, which he has had more time and experience with its layout.

[Sunder the Gold]

Takumu is indeed very smart, tactically and strategically.

Of course, even if he knew about the Incarnate System, he still wouldn't have known about the Pyro Dealer that Noumi recently stole. That alone would have made their fight more challenging for Takumu, even (if not especially) inside those hallways.


But returning to the SGD... I currently can't use Hulu (stupid adobe and browser updates), so I can't check...

But did Cyan Pile's SP Gauge really go down before he transformed the Pile Driver, or after? The light novel doesn't say. Neither does the manga.

If it was after, then the Pile Driver may have a blunt-mode with a firing attack independent of his special SGD attack. Or at least he can set up the special attack before he needs to use it.

[Tusjecht]

The anime showed that there was a decrease in his SP gauge after he completed the move.

But there was no indication that the changing of his piercing head to the blunt piling head consumed SP, only that five-star transformation thingy.

So it's possible that he can fire his attacks with a blunt head for greater damage?

[Sunder the Gold]

Originally Posted by tusjecht

So it's possible that he can fire his attacks with a blunt head for greater damage?

Different damage, not greater.

Some targets require piercing, and others are more affected by smashing.


Anyway, regarding how much damage Cyan Pile's first shot did compared to how Spiral Gravity Driver failed to Overkill Silver Crow... despite the fact that Crow's Silver is strong against piercing and weak against blunt force...

Since no concrete numbers are given for the damage dealt, do you figure it was the author being a bit sloppy (more focused on drama than numbers), rather than a deliberate decision that SGD would be rather pathetically weak?