(L) Noein -- Mou Hitori no Kimi e

[Altharion]

wao: kosagi vs karasu happened ep 17
and Shangri-La no Futatabi was also in ep 18 when kuina and karasu first fought.

both ost were composed by Nanase so i dont really find much different except for some of the songs. the music in noein is pretty much great and i dont think they meant for the ost to fight each other but if i could buy only one of them then i would buy ost 1 since it has some of my most memorable songs in the series imo.

[Sonhex]

The first OST was incredible and this second one has some good tracks but overall it sounds more like a game soundtrack to me.

In fact the folk melodies Nanase uses reminds me of Kumi Tanioka's wondrous Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles OST. IMHO a lot of the weaker tracks do have a Final Fantasy feel to them i.e. mix of folk and synth ...

[Yuuu]

Originally Posted by wao

Yuu no Kanashimi was in episode 22... when Karasu was explaining a bit about Haruka to Yuu. That was nice. Although in this version the strings sound like they're from a synth :| I guess the l33t sound tech people managed to mix it in nicely in the episode.

And have we ever heard Jikuu Senshi no Shukumei? It sounds so creepy... I wonder if we'll get to hear it in the final ep? I don't remember hearing a number of these songs..

I thought 'Yuu no Kanashimi' played when Yuu appeared to Isami in 22? Heh I don't have the ep anymore since it was on another computer, so I can't check..

About Jikuu Senshi no Shukumei: I really think it will be in the last episode...it has to. Maybe at a point when Haruka makes her final choice? I don't know...it will be interesting, BUT NOW I'M EXPECTING IT IN THE FINAL EP!!!

[wao]

The official site finally updated. No pics for ep 24 () but, there's a small writeup that doesn't reveal a lot. I'm still worried that the final ep will conveiniently forget about a lot of things.

Also, all the cast members have now got comments taken after the ending of recording, you can see them here: http://www.noein.jp/about/staff.html#cast (click on the names) I had translated their pre-airing comemnts but it got lost in the forum crash and I can't be bothered to do them again just yet.

There's also a nice pic of the whole cast. And the director. Speaking of which, on the 24th was Kazuki Akane's 44th birthday!! Happy birthday. Whee.

Anyway - I find it soooo hilarious that Noein/Karasu's seiyuu is so small and cute!! Look at him, he's got that sweet smile and pudgy little face... (although it's not as sweet and cute as Haruka Kudou's. She's a model for crying out loud.)Yuu's seiyuu (Fujiko Takimoto, front row on the extreme right) looks more serious and manly than Kazuya Nakai - it's a case where the voice and the face totally don't match Just like Juurouta Kosugi with his deeep serious voice (David in Blood+, Charles in Eureka 7, Fernand in Gankutsuou, Akio in Utena, Dryden in Escaflowne... )


I can't recognize everyone in there though...
I can only recognize:
Front row - all
2nd row - far left, Kenichi Suzumura, on the far right is either Atsuko Tanaka or Sayaka Ohara, and I think the two people hiding in the middle are Mai Nakahara and Ryoko Shiraishi.
3rd row - Rikiya Koyama? then Kohei Kiyasu, and then definitely Kouki Miyata. The old guy is Hikaru Miyata (Wanderer of Time)
Right at the back - Far left is definitely Kenta Miyake (Isuka, Mayuzumi). Then... who the hell is that? And the person with the sunglasses might be Keiji Fujiwara.

[MrProphet]

Oh god, Yuu's seiyuu just cracks me up. Those Japanese and their haircuts! 8)))



By the Power of the Great Mullet! 8)

[BluWacky]

Episode 24.

I thought I'd be calm. I thought I'd be collected. Admittedly I have spent pretty much all day doing nothing but anticipate this episode.

As soon as I started watching it I went totally nuts, basically. I can't believe Noein's finished

I'm going to have to watch it again to catch the bits I'd missed. I'm not sure how everyone's going to feel about the ending - to be honest, I don't think they'd quite finished animating the episode in time for the broadcast, but they're obviously not going to change the story at all, and it seems a little bit rushed in some respects - while they didn't resolve everything (as we'd expected) it did everything that actually MATTERED, and that's what's important; it isn't even actually as much as a "cop out" as it might have been.

Actual episode discussion in spoilers - I'm off to bed (if I can sleep without mulling things over), and plan on rewatching to clear up the stuff I didn't immediately understand. I think once I've cleared those things up (perhaps with the help of you lot) I'll be a lot clearer on how I stand with the ending as a whole. Whatever happens, I think Noein is a magnificent series; with everything cleared up, I'll be able to decide just HOW magnificent.

Spoiler for MASSIVE SPOILERS FOR THE LAST EPISODE. SERIOUSLY. DON'T READ BEFORE YOU WATCH THE EPISODE.:

Okay, so the obvious stuff:

We didn't get a "five years later" for all the characters, which I would have liked, but what we got was enough I guess except THEY NEVER EXPLAINED THE DAMN PHONE CALL. THEY WERE SO CLOSE - when they started talking about phoning Isami in the epilogue I was SO sure Haruka's "hang on a minute" would be her phoning herself in the past (there was a phonebox on the street!) but I guess it wasn't meant to be. I'm willing to let it slide, though, because I really liked the ending.

Atori kicked serious amounts of ass in this episode, and went out with a bang. Literally. And he even got to hear Sara once more. Totally satisfied with his ending, totally satisfied with his character arc, ATORI LOVE.

Miho was blind! I guess that's what all the pills would have done to her. At least we finally got to see her. Lacrima ended well, I felt; seeing the crazy old guy again was a treat, and Amamiku is obviously coping fine now.

KOSAGI. Now there's a question. I need to rewatch Tobi's farewell; I presumed that he sent her back because she still had time left and he wanted her to live - plus she destroyed the quantum computer that was helping to feed Noein's power (I think?). But I'm not totally sure. Anyway, I really came round to her character by the end of the show despite her being a total non-entity at the start (much like Kuina and Tobi).

Poor Tobi, although I'm glad they killed him off; it made the most sense story-wise.

What happened to Koriyama exactly? I can guess as to why he was able to re-appear alive but didn't totally understand it - as they were at the centre of the Magic Circle, I presume an alternate Koriyama who DIDN'T die crossed over since the quantum whatsits were completely destabilised. When Haruka Torqued everything, presumably that reset him to living again? Will rewatch and reconsider. I'd have liked a bit more screentime for the other adults, but I guess they were pretty minor characters overall so it's hardly surprising they got ignored.

The supporting kids didn't get much, but then their role in the series was over; at least they stood by each other and our heroes, and in some ways that's one of the most important things of all - at least they won't end up like Lacrima, drifting apart into alienation and eventual destruction. I still don't really get why Lacrima ended up super-powered, though (nor Shangri-La, really) but it doesn't really matter that much.

The Wanderer of Time was just the manifestation of the Ouroboros; it would have been awesome if he'd been "someone", but I guess not. But now we're getting into thorny territory about what I did and didn't quite get...

So, Haruka merged with Noein and was generally floating around in space-time; the Wanderer was basically telling her that she had chosen the futures of every single dimension, or at least that she could choose, and essentially in the end she refused to choose entirely aka Escaflowne ending. She didn't Torque everything to a reset ending, she just restored the balance of space-time so it was no longer unstable, with the help of Mayuzumi/Tobi shutting down the Magic Circle and Kosagi blowing up Lacrima's quantum computer. I think.

What is more important is Noein (and it's very obvious at this point that it was an extremely sensible move to name the series after him, as he's quite clearly the most important character in the end of the series). Where did the future he saw with Yuu at Haruka's grave come from? Was it Hakodate-future, or Shangri-La before the war and Yuu's insanity? Hakodate-future would make the whole series extremely bittersweet (even though Haruka has destroyed the concept of "fate" which might possibly negate this future), but Shangri-La wouldn't be entirely without emotional resonance - both Yuu and Haruka berate Noein for forgetting about her and getting caught up in his own hatred, whereas Yuu will never forget Haruka yadda yadda yadda. Yuu brings Haruka back from Noein, Karasu is freed (OH MY GOD all the fight scenes in this episode were incredible, incidentally) and they all go back to their respective dimensions happily.

But what happened to Noein? Why did the Yuugekitei things turn on him? It's so hard to tell what they're saying with all the distortion, I'll have to watch it again...

So, preliminary thoughts before the first (of many?) rewatches: true, they didn't resolve a lot of things I thought they would. True, it feels a bit rushed. True, the animation is VERY inconsistent, ranging from phantasmagorically good to non-existant (the most blatant bit where they didn't finish off is when Haruka and Yuu teleport out of Shangri-La together - it cuts to the swirling CG Ouroboros until the "post-effects" scene (and some of the effects animation was GLORIOUS! Noein's absorption of Karasu (Ryochimo! RYOCHIMO!) was fantastic!) where they warp out). True, I haven't necessarily understood everything so the writers could have bull-shitted out of a lot of things.

But they didn't pull a reset ending, they sent off most of the characters very well, the acting was perfect, and all in all I'm pretty pleased with the ending.

But I have terrible Noein withdrawal so I can't just sit here and be happy. I can't believe it's over - it's like I'm in denial, really. I think because I have so many questions I can't really accept that it's finished until I'm finished with the show, despite having watched the whole thing. And to that extent, I can't really consider how I actually feel about Noein.

I can't believe it's finished

[MrProphet]

Oh, damn, it's that day already. Wow, the time flew by so fast...

[Splendiferous]

Yeah, it's been great sharing this airing with all of you... Having people to talk about such an odd and compelling series makes it that much more enjoyable..

**EDIT**
Hmmm, it has not yet appeared at it's usual time and place... sniffle

[Kaoru Chujo]

Originally Posted by Splendiferous

Yeah, it's been great sharing this airing with all of you... Having people to talk about such an odd and compelling series makes it that much more enjoyable.

Lovely post. Expresses feelings I didn't realize I had, but I do. Thanks, everyone.

I wish I understood the final episode well enough, but I loved it anyway, and felt pretty satisfied, in my ignorance. The look was just fabulous, despite some sketchy moments. I also guessed they might have not quite completed a few things in time. And they were really sketchy with the people in the control room at one point, lol (it worked great in context). But what wonderful blue snow! The snow scenes at the very end were so beautiful, too. And the fights were as wonderful as ever, or moreso.

Spoiler for ep24:

And the swarms of Shangri-la creatures were great. You might say it all ended, as wao feared, with a big explosion that put things right ("iyabo-n"), but it was a long, complex, interesting and beautiful explosion. And not irrational, as far as I could tell. Karasu, Yuu and Haruka were all assimilated into noein, but the power of the torc and Haruka disentangled them again. And she decided to let the worlds evolve on their own.

One thing (of many) I am not sure of is what state Karasu is in (merged with Yuu? how?) -- and why he can always be with her (because he is merged with Yuu?) -- when he is from another world. I loved it when Uchida flew to the breast of Koriyama (I mean Shuu-chan, lol), and the little silhouettes of Isami knocking Yuu to the ground and Ai and Miho gradually dragging Haruka down.

[Freakman]

To Splendi :

Spoiler:

Where did the future he saw with Yuu at Haruka's grave come from? Was it Hakodate-future, or Shangri-La before the war and Yuu's insanity?

As far as I know, it's Noein's past, where Haruka died in the car crash. Yuu tells Noein "I've seen your past". He's blaming him for not being able to move on.

[Yuuu]

Originally Posted by Splendiferous

Yeah, it's been great sharing this airing with all of you... Having people to talk about such an odd and compelling series makes it that much more enjoyable..

**EDIT**
Hmmm, it has not yet appeared at it's usual time and place... sniffle

Yep, the site is down, and I am going crazy here trying to not read some people's posts here. I've succeeded thus far, but I won't for much longer.

I NEED THIS EP NOW!!!

I feel bad that I wasn't here for much of the discussion...I really wish I found this place earlier. This is probably the best Noein discussion out there and I hope some of you would stick around further, even though the series is over to talk about it, because it is such a good show.

I'm still wondering if my theory which I stated in an earlier post here on what happens to Karasu is right...

Spoiler:

...that he will become assimilated into Yuu, much like earlier in the series (I think the ep was called 'repitition', but I'm not sure if that was the one..) when Haruka become assimilated into another timespace's Haruka and re-lived the events of the opening of the show with no kind of recollection of her true self. I think that would be a fitting end to the character IMO, instead of just having him 'dissapear'.

[wao]

I'm surprised I haven't made a wreck of my house being impatient for Noein 24.

Let's just keep it calm and cool, yes.... mhm.... *twitches*

By the way, what's all this about (taken at TAF)?


Episode 24.... *twitch*

...*twitch*...

ga-

[Splendiferous]

I feel your pain Wao... I do...

*EDIT* pain receding... Noein appeared...now arriving slowly per second anyways...

[MrProphet]

I was extremely sattisfied with the ending, even though I am already feeling the withdrawal symptoms.

I won't recap what happened, because I am sure that most of you will watch it now anyway, so I'll just try to explain why I thought they did a splendid job of completing the series. The animation was well-done as usual. I don't think I need to prove it, because they went all the way in this aspect. But I feel like the animation isn't the main thing anymore and here's why:

Spoiler:

Interestingly enough, they kept a peculiar balance between the Epic and the Personal. Most shows either go for the extreme WHIZ-BANG ending, with shit blowing up and thus resolving everything. Other shows become very introspective and self-analytical, almost drone-like their examination of what they stand for, what kind of ideas they try to convey (think EVA).

Noein managed to balance those two out. Atori certainly provided the Epic ending, while Noein/Karasu/Yuu attempted to achieve an introspective ending, expempliefied by the search of the true meaning of their tripple self, with Karasu/Yuu finally separating from Noein.

But it wasn't limited to those three. Tobi and Kosagi had a very emotional parting that I loved not because of how the feelings gushed, but on the contrary, how understated it was. A lot of things that went down between Tobi and Kosagi were almost on a subconscious plane, conveyed to us by minutiae facial expressions and mimic. The consecutive scene where Kosagi destroys the quantum computer in Lacrima only solidified my feeling.

I was very sattisfied that they dedicated the last episode to Karasu/Yuu/Noein, rather than to Haruka torquing everyone (which definitely did not happen). In fact, Haruka's role was somewhat minimal and passive compared to Yuu's. After all, this is a show about Yuu's alternative selves (refer to the title), and Haruka only serves as a medium by which Yuu arrives at the realization of his personal true self.

Haruka was very active as a protagonist throughout the show, but I think that Yuu deserved that this last episode Haruka finally gave way to him and to his decision to deny Noein.

I think Kazuki Akane conveyed this idea very well indeed. Yuu is the main character of the show, but Haruka has been helping him along in order for him to be able to do what he did this last episode. I was very pleased that they structured "Noein" it like that. The clarity of emotional message, the way everything was balanced, the beauty of Noein's asymetry. In the end, everything fell right where it belonged.

It's sad to let it go, honestly...

But, they show has been a tremendous success on so many levels that I let go of Noein with neither regret not disappointment. It did everything I wanted it to and that's what matters to me.

Thanks a lot guys for the stimulating discussion and I hope this is not the last one.

[Splendiferous]

Mr. Prophet I have to join in with you on declaring my utter satisfaction with the ending, and your observations on Kosagi/Tobi are something that I hadn't picked up on at all, I will have to re-watch everything again and keep an eye out for that development

As usual, some questions/comments:

Spoiler:

***
The early part of Atori's awesome battle is very "End of Evangelion"


****KARASU WILL ALWAYS BE WITH HARUKA****
In terms of the question of why Karasu will always be with Haruka: It has already been made clear throughout the series that people are connected with their selves in alternate time-spaces. Throughout, Yuu has explicitly lent his strength and intuitively communicated with Karasu in times of trouble. He didn't merge with Yuu, he's always been a part of Yuu. Karasu is a choice that Yuu can make for his own life, as much as Noein is. This is really clear in their exchange at the end of the series, where Yuu tells Noein that (I'm paraphrasing with my poor translation):

Yuu: "I've seen your future. Your future, I think, is probably my future. But you are not me, if you were me you wouldn't have forgotten Haruka, you wouldn't have killed Isami."
Noein: "You are me."
Yuu: "Wrong, you are not me. I won't ever become like you. I won't let this future happen."

In other words, though Yuu sees the possibility that his future events would be similar to Noein's, he would make different choices, and wouldn't resolve in the same way as Noein had (I believe the Yuu at the gravestone scene in this episode demonstrates that, if I read it properly).

Karasu may not be able to exist in the Present timespace in physical form, but all of his infinite reflections exist as a part of Yuu. The choices that Yuu will likely make will be those that lead him down a path that closely reflects Karasu's feelings for Haruka. In this way "in 15 years" she will meet Karasu again in a way.


****NO CHAOS FOR SHINOHARA?****
I'm curious why an alternate version of Shinohara doesn't appear. I'm not sure that the brief discussion on the Magic Circle Boat in reaction to there being no alternate Shinohara really explained it properly (or I just didn't understand it properly).

Was it perhaps because the Shinohara of other connected time-spaces never made a different choice? Or because he just didn't exist in any nearby time-spaces?


*****ATORI FROM SHANGRILA*****
Although it's not that much further evidence, Atori's memories of Aru and his sister are put against the background of the cloudy skies of Shangri-la at ~7:55(the same skies appear later in the episode connected directly to Shangri-la).

*EDIT*
Just noticed another detail, again minor, but it's always important in anime to look for visual symbolism:

During the flashback to the war in Noein's timespace, we see Noein watch over death and destruction around him. Suddenly at ~12:19, two groups of three fighters flies overhead. Soon after which the earth erupts in two obviously nuclear explosions.

This is connected visually to the fighter flying overhead in Atori's flashback in episode 23 (~3:43), after which follows the shockwave from a massive explosion during a period of great conflict..

I don't think these are left there as coincidences, but I guess now I'll never have certain proof of my theory... I still stand by it though!



*****TOBI VOICE IN HAKODATE*****
Interestingly, they appear to use Tobi's voice for one of the male scientists, slightly disguised at ~03:27

Also the voice of young Atori from the flashbacks sounds surprisingly like Tobi's voice as well...interstingly enough.




****WANDERER OF TIME SCRIPT?****
I'm kind of unclear as to what the Wanderer of time says to Haruka about Noein?

Something like He (Noein) is so tragic because he chose such a desperate future?


****SHANGRILA-HITO SCRIPT?****
Also what do the Shangri-la people say to Noein exactly after they leave him lying on the ground in a puddle near the end of the episode? I get the impression that Noein doesn't think they'll be able to accomplish it before he disintegrates cursing them.


****THE DRAGON'S TORQUE DETAILS?***
Haruka is the Dragon's Torque...
The Wanderer of Time is also the Dragon's Torque...

But Noein doesn't seem to have been the Dragon's Torque, although he demonstrated a great deal of power occasionally equivalent.

Why then did the Dragon's Torque communicate with Haruka in Karasu/Noein's voice earlier in the series (specifically when the Dam was going to destroy Hakodate). Is this an error on the part of the creators perhaps? Shouldn't this have been the Wanderer of Time, if anyone?

We have no real indication that Noein was yet aware of the Hakodate Dragon's Torque by that point.
*
*EDIT** Actually I'm wrong here, Noein does appear prior to this briefly to confront the Dragoons.

Still, I can't think of any good explanations for that little oddity based on the story and characters as we know them now.


****UNDERSTANDING KUINA****
It seems now in a certain way that Kuina's desperation throughout the series was explored visually through his gradual disentegration.

Kuina gradually loses his humanity, and eventually abandons Lacryma for the ideal of Shangrila, which is essentially what Noein does as he loses his friends, forgets Haruka, and seems to try to create Shangrila.

Eventually Kuina disentegrates down to seeming nothingness (episode 20) except me might expect, the steel mask, reflecting our picture of Noein (the mask), in essence, Kuina's own experience of loss both thematically and visually reflects Noein's in many respects. At least to me that seems to be how Kuina was deployed.

In this way, I think I'm a bit more satisfied with Kuina as a character now, because throughout the 2nd half of the series he seems little more than a convenient foil for our heroes, but now I can see Kuina as a sort of metaphorical explanation for Noein.

Kuina, like Shangri-la's Yuu were both weak in the sense that they gave into a certain kind of desperation and ultimately betrayed their humanity, using and destroying those around them in order to lay the bricks of their own Utopia (Kuina is somewhat more sympathetic because he was essentially used, but he certainly makes the decisions to betray Lacryma himself for an ideal, that only served to destory him in the end). This is an interesting commentary on dictatorial utopianism that can be observed in history through the likes of Hitler and the ideals of the Nazi party.


***ANOTHER TRANSLATION QUESTION***
WHat is the meaning of the mostly kanji-written phrase scrawled on the streets in front of Yuu in what will become Shangrila? It's visible very briefly at approximately: ~12:18

[Glitch87]

ok without telling me anything, how many stars do you guys give the ending?

[MrProphet]

Originally Posted by Glitch87

ok without telling me anything, how many stars do you guys give the ending?

Compared to recent anime in general - 5/5

Compared to the rest of Noein, the expectations of the ending and what it could/should have achieved - 4.5/5

[Kaoru Chujo]

Originally Posted by Splendiferous

As usual, some questions/comments:

Spoiler:

...What is the meaning of the mostly kanji-written phrase scrawled on the streets in front of Yuu in what will become Shangrila? It's visible very briefly at approximately: ~12:18

Answer: "Ore wa dare da?" (Who am I?) My thanks to you and MrProphet for some interesting observations.

[Freakman]

Here comes my (sloppy) translation work :

Spoiler:

****SHANGRILA-HITO SCRIPT?****
The merging has ended.
Choices have returned.
Recognition(認識: honestly in this context i'm having trouble finding another word) has been revived.
Noein : You will never be able to make a choice.
Noein : You will inevitably come back to this time-space.

****WANDERER OF TIME SCRIPT?****
Haruka : Yuu ?
Wanderer: Yes.
Haruka : Old man ?
Wanderer: Unfortunately for him, he chose this time-space.
Wanderer: A future filled with nothing but sadness and (?)
Haruka : A future ?
Wanderer: Yes. One of the countless possible futures.
Haruka : What should I do ?
Wanderer: What kind of future do you want to see ?
Haruka : I don't want the future to be sad...
Wanderer: Because humans wish for better tomorrows, time spaces allow the choice of any future.
Haruka : What if there's only one future ?
Wanderer: A time space without choices breaks down and eventually disappears.
Haruka : Everyone will disappear ?
Wanderer: Yes. The sky and the earth will disappear, and everything will turn to void.
Haruka : What should I do ?
Wanderer: You were chosen amongst all of the time spaces.
Haruka : Why ?
Wanderer: Anyone could have been.
Wanderer: But you were.
Haruka : So I decide ?
Wanderer: Just listen to the voices of all living beings in the time spaces.
Wanderer: Just feel them.
Haruka : Feel everything ?


Honestly I won't comment on the rest, because I'm kind of really lost. I'll need to rewatch all of the episodes, some with subtitles in order to get a good grip of the series in its entirety.

[MrProphet]

Originally Posted by Freakman

Spoiler:

Recognition(認識: honestly in this context i'm having trouble finding another word) has been revived.

In the context of what they were saying, "ninshiki" actually would mean something along the lines of:

- understanding
- knowledge
- appreciation
- cognizance
- responsibility

The meaning of what the inhabitants of Shangri-La were saying is...

Spoiler:

... that they no longer accept Noein's vision for their world. Remember, he proposed a world without sadness or pain. That is Shangri-La, a world without individuality, emotion or personality.

This is what the Shangri-La person has been telling Yuu about in ep. 23 ("We have been wrong in trusting Noein").

So, now they tell Noein that his plan to eliminate pain and suffering no longer works and they take responsibility for themselves, reviving their ability to gain knowledge about the world (and thus feel pain and sadness) and to take responsibility for their own actions.

Amazing, isn't it? The depth of meaning in a single word.