Fate/Zero - Episode 17 Discussion / Poll

[HandofFate]

Even as a hardcore mage to the bone, did Rin's father truely value and trust Kirei, or was he just another tool for him to reach the root?

[sento]

Originally Posted by HandofFate

Even as a hardcore mage to the bone, did Rin's father truely value and trust Kirei, or was he just another tool for him to reach the root?

He really considered Kirei a true friend. The narration in the novel makes pretty clear. The whole point about Tokiomi is basically what you see in this episode, he was just a fool who wasn't able to grasp the truth.

[Xagzan]

Question. I'm confused about what exactly made Kirei suddenly change his mind about leaving, in that scene where he was packing his things. It seemed like after he got that phone call about the Einzberns he was all "Ok I'm staying," but I didn't really get that. Who called him? Had he been scouting for their location on his own? Why? I just didn't understand how that call relates to his decision to stay, which the scene kind of implied.

[mAc Chaos]

^I figured that he had given up on the war, but once he found out where the Einzberns were, aka where Kiritsugu could be found, the thing he had been searching for was too close in his grasp to pass up on and the temptation became too strong.

[sento]

Originally Posted by Xagzan

Question. I'm confused about what exactly made Kirei suddenly change his mind about leaving, in that scene where he was packing his things. It seemed like after he got that phone call about the Einzberns he was all "Ok I'm staying," but I didn't really get that. Who called him? Had he been scouting for their location on his own? Why? I just didn't understand how that call relates to his decision to stay, which the scene kind of implied.

Holy Church lackeys that found out the place where Iri, Maiya and Saber hide. Now that his father died, there are people under his command and he ordered them to follow Iri and Maiya car.

Basically, is not logical to someone who was supposed to be retreating to do that kind of stuff. That's why Gilgamesh laughted, as he knew Kotomine true intentions.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

EDIT: Anyways, yes, the Azzoth Dagger has a karmic importance in the series.

Wouldn't say that (does anyone cares about Tokiomi?), but it gets more useful in HF.

[willyvereb]

Originally Posted by Thess

Wouldn't say that (does anyone cares about Tokiomi?), but it gets more useful in HF.

Yeah, albeit I would rather not get nto the details how. (Given this is a thread about Fate/Zero and anime)

Anyways, the Azzoth Dagger was always used as a plot device for drama. Sometimes through karmic death while at other times through different means (like in HF).

[LunarMoon]

Loved this one. This episode hit nearly all of the bases that I wanted it to hit, so I enjoyed it more than a lot of the novel readers. The only thing that I felt was amiss was the lack of Kotomine crying, as he did in the novel, when he came across his father’s corpse. Other than that, I kind of felt that they were attempting to appeal to lolicons in episode 10, so I was worried about that possibility in this episode. I didn’t get that vibe from 17, at all, so much rejoicing was to be had.

Originally Posted by Linkark07

Argh, I thought Tokiomi would go out next episode.

Really, I agree with everyone, this episode had a lot of weird scene transitions. Hopefully it will get fixed on blu ray.

I was actually hoping for the exact opposite. Originally, I would have preferred that it was ordered in the exact same fashion as it was in the novel, with the scene with Kotomine and his father placed directly after Kayneth shot him, but after it became apparent that this wouldn’t be practical for an episodic format, I really wanted them to just condense all of the Kotomine characterization together, to better contrast his character with that of Kiritsugu from the previous episode. I was ready to groan when the episode got to the final meeting between Kotomine and Tokiomi, at the 18 minute mark, without arriving at the stabbing scene.

It also seemed to be a common consensus that, due to time constraints, they were just going to exposit the scene in which Kirei arrived upon his father’s corpse and obtained his command seals, so I was impressed with how clever they were in adding it in and extremely happy about it, all the same.

[Jarmel]

Originally Posted by Xagzan

Question. I'm confused about what exactly made Kirei suddenly change his mind about leaving, in that scene where he was packing his things. It seemed like after he got that phone call about the Einzberns he was all "Ok I'm staying," but I didn't really get that. Who called him? Had he been scouting for their location on his own? Why? I just didn't understand how that call relates to his decision to stay, which the scene kind of implied.

I don't think he was ever planning on leaving and was just doing a show for Gilgamesh/Tokiomi. In the subs he stated that he thought about it and decided against leaving. I'm guessing his mind was made up when he took his father's Command Seals.

[fertygo]

Damn... this is what I watching F/Z for, Kirei and Kiritsugu show

Seriously these last two eps is just amazing.

[jorez]

Horrible ending for the proud mage. I guess that is why you should never have apprentices.

Never liked Tokiomi. But that episode alone, made me somehow had a bit of pity for him.

[HandofFate]

I feel kind of bad for Kirei despite the cold betrayal he gave. He wanted to be good, but it wasn't his nature.
I did laugh when Kirei felt he had the need to mention he never bought a ticket in the first place. Definitely the biggest detail Tokiomi would be most interested in his last seconds.

[Guardian Enzo]

Definitely a step down from last week's intense spectacular, but still fascinating. As an anime-only handicapper, I make this a very bad week for Kiritsugu. He's lost another safe, predictable and easy to manipulate opponent, and he's left with the two Masters and two Servants he'd probably most hate to face.

As for Rider and Waver, love those guys but they've had "side character" flags from the beginning so I don't see them as a major factor. Wouldn't be surprised if they're the next to go out.

[zRyuu]

I feel bad for Tokiomi dying after he asked Kirei to take care of Rin.

[Kirito]

Originally Posted by jorez

Horrible ending for the proud mage. I guess that is why you should never have apprentices.

Never liked Tokiomi. But that episode alone, made me somehow had a bit of pity for him.

Yeah there were definitely Sith master and apprentice mentality there.

[Kirito]

Man, Kirei is such a douche, he killed the man who treated the dude not only as a student but also as part of his family. Now he's Gilgamesh's master and he was the grail to answer questions to his own baseless insanity.

I truly felt sorry for Tokiomi, but it shows that Rin will soon be following in the family legacy shortly.

[Yusei Fudo]

The evil Kirei arises!

Tokiomi has been backstabbed!

[lightsenshi]

Okay, what is that on Saber's right wrist? It looks like a medical bracelet?

[jeroz]

is it just me or is there tonnes of unresolved sexual tension between Kirie and Gilgamesh?

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by jeroz

is it just me or is there tonnes of unresolved sexual tension between Kirie and Gilgamesh?

It's Pinky and Brain all over again.