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kitten320 · 2013-09-23, 13:34

Where exactly am I hating on Mikasa?! I pointed out what is wrong with her like people above and what EREN said himself.

I said many times that Annie needs to be punished for her crimes.
And for a villain she could be so much worse.

Just take a look at Joffrey from Game of Thrones. Now that's an ass hole with no redeeming qualities right there!

If you can't see the difference between him and Annie you are blind.

LeoXiao · 2013-09-23, 13:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eragon

Flame-baiting much ?

Mikasa is shallow. There's nothing deep about her for any description about her to be deep. How has she grown as a character from the start of the series ? She was obsessed with Eren when she was a child, she is still obsessed with him. That's all there is to her character.

Oh, and I don't care much about Annie either, before you go all "you hypocrite" over me.

As much as I like Mikasa for other reasons (mainly because hawt and badass are always good combinations), I have to agree with this.

darklegends8 · 2013-09-23, 13:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by kitten320

Where exactly am I hating on Mikasa?! I pointed out what is wrong with her like people above and what EREN said himself.

I said many times that Annie needs to be punished for her crimes.
And for a villain she could be so much worse.

Just take a look at Joffrey from Game of Thrones. Now that's an ass hole with no redeeming qualities right there!

If you can't see the difference between him and Annie you are blind.

I don't watch game of thrones so I have no idea what you're talking about. Okay, well how about in the episode 24 discussion thread, you complained about how it made Mikasa look like she was "owning" Annie and over-portraying her skill. Yet Annie was doing just fine against Mikasa. Then you admit that Isayame weighs in on most fillers that are done, so it might actually be the author's intention that this is their relative skill levels. However, you assume that "no Annie is much stronger than Mikasa, this is wrong"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eragon

Flame-baiting much ?

Mikasa is shallow. There's nothing deep about her for any description about her to be deep. How has she grown as a character from the start of the series ? She was obsessed with Eren when she was a child, she is still obsessed with him. That's all there is to her character.

Oh, and I don't care much about Annie either, before you go all "you hypocrite" on me.

If you want to look at characters like that, that's fine. But then really the only characters that have gotten measurable development are Jean and maybe Armin. So then what you're really saying is none of them have developed, which becomes kind of a moot point.

kitten320 · 2013-09-23, 13:46

If you read my post properly, I skipped through episode back then. I did not watch it properly so I just ended up seeing parts where Mikasa cuts her only.

If Isayama really took part in it fine. However, in the end Mikasa was all over the place and lost to Annie. All Annie needed was to stand on her. She didn't though.

So yes Mikasa is strong and gave Annie a good beating but final result was with Annie walking away, leaving Mikasa unconscious and getting punched by Eren.

And regarding GoT, you really should. Or at least read about Joffrey so you could see the difference between him the villain and Annie the villain.

Believe me, there is big one.

Eragon · 2013-09-23, 13:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by darklegends8

If you want to look at characters like that, that's fine. But then really the only characters that have gotten measurable development are Jean and maybe Armin. So then what you're really saying is none of them have developed, which becomes kind of a moot point.

I would very much like to know any other way to look at characters to have any kind of meaningful discussion.

And, I didn't say I found the rest of the characters oh-so-awesome. Jean and Armin are among my favorite characters in this show. I don't care about the rest of them - including Eren. I hate retconned deaths with passion.
The only reason I'm not posting about the rest of the cast is because they don't have their own threads.

The point would have been moot if not even a SINGLE character was developed.

lateraldeath · 2013-09-23, 13:59

[QUOTE=kitten320;4842750]When a person only cares about loved one and nothing more in the world... I consider those people shallow. Sorry but that's how I view them. It is one thing to love somebody and want to protect and another to fully and blindly dedicate yourself to that person and have no other goals in your life.

You stop being human and become simply a machine. A boring one to boot since apart from yourself and your relationship there isn't much to talk about to them.

It is not so hard to love somebody while still have some other goals in life. Even something very simple and small.

[QUOTE]

Mikasa's has a single minded goal, not gonna debate that. However, my focus from what I quoted of you was purely you saying she's not human. You are talking like there's a dictionary definition of what makes a person human and there isn't. Love is expressed differently by everyone, and all those way are a part of being human.

Look at it this way, from what we gather of Annie from currently released story material, what is her goal in life. As far as we can tell, all it is is survival for herself. Isn't that also single minded then? Mikasa's goal isn't her own survival but someone else's, that's the only difference, so why is Annie suddenly more human.

Deviating from the human point, as for Mikasa having other goals, the setting of the story doesn't really allow it does it. What's the point of figuring out long term goals when you may die tomorrow, especially if ur in the recon corp. If her world is as peaceful as ours, and all she could still think about is Eren Eren, then that's a problem. But for now there really isn't a point to think about personal goals aside from Eren surviving, which equals to the survival of humanity right now anyhow.

kitten320 · 2013-09-23, 14:08

Spoiler for manga:

And I'll be honest, I don't like clingy people so that already lowers Mikasa in my book. If Annie was that clingy, I also wouldn't like her that much.
One of the reasons why I hated Yuno in Mirai Nikki.

True but she was like that from the start and did not change what is the main problem. Besides many characters are trying to protect Eren but none of them is that obsessive.

And my term "human" probably was not the right one. English is not really my first language. You win there.

GoldenLand · 2013-09-23, 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by darklegends8

If you want to look at characters like that, that's fine. But then really the only characters that have gotten measurable development are Jean and maybe Armin. So then what you're really saying is none of them have developed, which becomes kind of a moot point.

I'd say that Mikasa has had clear, measurable character development. She started out a normal sort of kid in a happy family, then there was the horrible death of her parents and the effect of that trauma upon her + the effect of Eren's motivational speech that got her to snap and realise it's a cruel world/surpass her limits and gain amazing physical control/fight back for survival despite not feeling there was anywhere left for her to be. Then the way she felt everything was cold and was invited into Eren's family (warmth), and her adjustment to them (though that was mostly not shown, we did see her after she'd settled in), her reaction to Carla's death and her new focus after that upon Eren as her last surviving family, and then the things that happened when she thought Eren was dead.

The things that happened with her during the time her 3D gear was out of power were very pronounced in terms of character development, with her realising her actions had been suicidal and her evaluation of whether she wanted to live on even after all her second family was dead - I have to say, I love that sort of moment, where someone regains their will to survive. It's good that this happened early on in the series, because even though Eren is her priority we know that she would definitely choose to live on without him and fight for her own survival. Well, I suppose we already knew this in a way from the scene where she was a kid, but that was tied in thematically with the later situation.

She hasn't done too badly in terms of character development, but I do want to see more of it.

kitten320 · 2013-09-23, 14:20

And that's sadly where it ended. The moment Eren happened to be alive, we went back to square one.

Ok square 2 if you count her parents death.

I honestly liked her back then during those realization moments. Depressing that all of that went to waste.

darklegends8 · 2013-09-23, 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

I'd say that Mikasa has had clear, measurable character development. She started out a normal sort of kid in a happy family, then there was the horrible death of her parents and the effect of that trauma upon her + the effect of Eren's motivational speech that got her to snap and realise it's a cruel world/surpass her limits and gain amazing physical control/fight back for survival despite not feeling there was anywhere left for her to be. Then the way she felt everything was cold and was invited into Eren's family (warmth), and her adjustment to them (though that was mostly not shown, we did see her after she'd settled in), her reaction to Carla's death and her new focus after that upon Eren as her last surviving family, and then the things that happened when she thought Eren was dead.

The things that happened with her during the time her 3D gear was out of power were very pronounced in terms of character development, with her realising her actions had been suicidal and her evaluation of whether she wanted to live on even after all her second family was dead - I have to say, I love that sort of moment, where someone regains their will to survive. It's good that this happened early on in the series, because even though Eren is her priority we know that she would definitely choose to live on without him and fight for her own survival. Well, I suppose we already knew this in a way from the scene where she was a kid, but that was tied in thematically with the later situation.

She hasn't done too badly in terms of character development, but I do want to see more of it.

That's why I said "if you want to look at her like that" I think she's done fine in terms of development.

lateraldeath · 2013-09-23, 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by kitten320

And I'll be honest, I don't like clingy people so that already lowers Mikasa in my book. If Annie was that clingy, I also wouldn't like her that much.
One of the reasons why I hated Yuno in Mirai Nikki.

True but she was like that from the start and did not change what is the main problem. Besides many characters are trying to protect Eren but none of them is that obsessive.

And my term "human" probably was not the right one. English is not really my first language. You win there.

I read the manga, but I still think whatever her underlying "goal is" it's only survival for her and

Spoiler:

True's Mikasa has been like this since the start, but their situation was about survival from the start. I get that not everyone will be understanding of that though since it's all personal opinion/interpretation.

kitten320 · 2013-09-23, 14:25

There isn't much survival to worry about when you live in safe walls.

lateraldeath · 2013-09-23, 14:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by kitten320

There isn't much survival to worry about when you live in safe walls.

but the walls are not safe.. isn't that the whole point of the anime?

kitten320 · 2013-09-23, 14:40

It was safe back then what means they could live a relaxing live like everyone else until Collosal titan appeared. Now that's where things change.

darklegends8 · 2013-09-23, 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by kitten320

It was safe back then what means they could live a relaxing live like everyone else until Collosal titan appeared. Now that's where things change.

I wouldn't say it was safe when Mikasa's parents got killed

kitten320 · 2013-09-23, 19:21

Well to be honest they lived in a forest, can't really call it safe.

Middle of the city is a safer place for sure.

Everyone else were able to enjoy their life in one way or another and have goals. Living in same environment as Mikasa. I don't see why she should be an exception.

While parents death is traumatizing it doesn't mean she has to fully dedicate herself to Eren now.
And as I said Eren himself does not approve. If she can't see that her behaviour is earning a negative reaction from him... well I don't really know what to say.

The point is she needs to start to think of something else apart from just Eren. She needs to widen her view.

She seemed to achieve it when Eren supposedly died but once he came back she became her old Eren obsessed self.

lateraldeath · 2013-09-23, 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by darklegends8

I wouldn't say it was safe when Mikasa's parents got killed

Well, the safe I meant to say was against Titan's and the entire destruction of Mankind, not skirmish humans vs other humans.

ahlecks · 2013-09-24, 05:19

I don't get it, having a single minded desire to love your family and devote a part of what you do in your life for them is considered shallow?

Isn't it at least half of what we do in life anyway? You devote it for your family, the other half for yourself, you can equate friends and other people in it. But at the end of the day an average normal human being devotes their lives for something that simple, and that's considered shallow?

Well I don't really have a problem with being called shallow, I don't think I have what it takes to think about the whole world...

Also I find it funny, that a lot of Mikasa's actions are being condemned due to how she single-mindedly pursues them, when fact is, Annie is no different really. Sure, Annie may have regretted having killed those many people, but truth is, despite that, she still aims for her goal. Not all that different from Mikasa.

Also friends and bonds? Mikasa only really has Armin and Eren because of what she went through in life, I'm pretty sure its common in any media how a character who lost their family end up not making many good friends as a form of coping mechanism from that pain. Annie? she's pretty much the same (though I'm not too sure on what her actual reasons are for not making friends well), except for the few moments with Armin and Eren, she didn't really have many friends...

Spoiler for events in manga:

Also both of them despite not outwardly showing it, do in fact care about the friends they made in 104th Training Corps. For Annie, its when she spared Armin twice. For Mikasa

Spoiler for events in manga:

Really, for all this justifications for Annie, I find it funny how the same can't be said for Mikasa, when they're almost fundamentally the same, only difference I can see is the scale of their goals.

kitten320 · 2013-09-24, 08:39

Does that mean you like stalkers? You don't mind for your girlfriend/sister to follow your EVERY step without really thinking for themselves? Are you ok with them being your shadow?
Because that's basically all Mikasa does.

It would be one thing if Eren didn't mind and another when he clearly does not approve of Mikasa's mind set. She is not doing it for Eren but for her own selfish reason.
There really is no harm in giving him some space.

Look at Jean, he cares for Mikasa but he is not following her. He has other goals and ideals in mind.
Armin, he cares for his friends and even though originally he was their tail, he gradually grew into a person with new goals and ideals. It is not all about Eren and Mikasa any more even though he cares about them just as much as before.

Mikasa managed to do that when Eren "died" but once he came back her personality reverted back to old/clingy/kinda selfish self. Pretty narrow too if she still hopes to win Eren's heart by not changing her ways.

If Eren suddenly said he quits, she would too despite having talent and power to help.
Old Armin would as well but not new one. He learned to think for himself and prioritize things, not Mikasa.

How sad it wouldn't be, Eren seriously gets in the way of her character development. If he remained dead, she would be far more entertaining as a person.

Basically for me it is not a fact that she cares for Eren, it is how she cares for him and how it effects her judgement and everything around her.
There are many caring characters in fiction that are likeable, hers is leaning towards obsession that is not ok.

And regarding Annie, me and lateraldeath had a discussion and came to following conclusion.
While Annie's goals mostly lead to wanting to survive she also thinks about the world, what it should be like and how it could be changed. To boot her ideals are pretty reasonable, not of a crazed person.
And no I'm not talking about her killing hundreds, we still don't know real reason for that. I'm talking about her conversation with Eren and that MP guy. What she said is not wrong.

Just this small fact that Annie concerns herself with something else apart from survival, makes her more diverse person than Mikasa what automatically makes her more interesting in my eyes.

And I'll be bias here but as said before I just don't like clingy people. As long as Mikasa keeps clinging to Eren like she does, I will not like her much. I can be neutral but I'll never like her.
Same as several people admitted that even if Annie happens to have good reason, they still won't like her because she killed Petra.
In my case Mikasa at least has a chance.

P.S. Can someone name me the chapter and page number? I would like to take a proper look.

EDIT:

Spoiler for manga:

LeoXiao · 2013-09-24, 13:13

To be fair I don't think you can really call Mikasa clingy to the point of stalking. She's just really protective, which is normal since they're in a high-fatality conflict. It's no surprise that she is constantly worried about where he is and if he's okay. This isn't high school. What is true is that her character has been rather frozen development-wise for the last 1+ episodes, since her job of killing Titans and looking out for Eren hasn't changed. But the show isn't about Mikasa, and who knows, maybe she will get her development in season 2.

2013-09-23, 13:34	Link #241
kitten320 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007	Where exactly am I hating on Mikasa?! I pointed out what is wrong with her like people above and what EREN said himself. I said many times that Annie needs to be punished for her crimes. And for a villain she could be so much worse. Just take a look at Joffrey from Game of Thrones. Now that's an ass hole with no redeeming qualities right there! If you can't see the difference between him and Annie you are blind. __________________ My anime list

2013-09-23, 13:46	Link #244
kitten320 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007	If you read my post properly, I skipped through episode back then. I did not watch it properly so I just ended up seeing parts where Mikasa cuts her only. If Isayama really took part in it fine. However, in the end Mikasa was all over the place and lost to Annie. All Annie needed was to stand on her. She didn't though. So yes Mikasa is strong and gave Annie a good beating but final result was with Annie walking away, leaving Mikasa unconscious and getting punched by Eren. And regarding GoT, you really should. Or at least read about Joffrey so you could see the difference between him the villain and Annie the villain. Believe me, there is big one. __________________ My anime list

2013-09-23, 14:08	Link #247
kitten320 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007	Spoiler for manga: Annie was working with Reiner and Bert who destroyed the walls. There clearly is bigger goal than just survival. She also wants to come home to see her father. And going by episode 23 she said "I want for weak to be considered human". That already makes 3-4 different goals. And I'll be honest, I don't like clingy people so that already lowers Mikasa in my book. If Annie was that clingy, I also wouldn't like her that much. One of the reasons why I hated Yuno in Mirai Nikki. True but she was like that from the start and did not change what is the main problem. Besides many characters are trying to protect Eren but none of them is that obsessive. And my term "human" probably was not the right one. English is not really my first language. You win there. __________________ My anime list

2013-09-23, 14:20	Link #249
kitten320 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007	And that's sadly where it ended. The moment Eren happened to be alive, we went back to square one. Ok square 2 if you count her parents death. I honestly liked her back then during those realization moments. Depressing that all of that went to waste. __________________ My anime list

2013-09-23, 14:25	Link #252
kitten320 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007	There isn't much survival to worry about when you live in safe walls. __________________ My anime list

2013-09-23, 13:59	Link #246
lateraldeath Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004	[QUOTE=kitten320;4842750]When a person only cares about loved one and nothing more in the world... I consider those people shallow. Sorry but that's how I view them. It is one thing to love somebody and want to protect and another to fully and blindly dedicate yourself to that person and have no other goals in your life. You stop being human and become simply a machine. A boring one to boot since apart from yourself and your relationship there isn't much to talk about to them. It is not so hard to love somebody while still have some other goals in life. Even something very simple and small. [QUOTE] Mikasa's has a single minded goal, not gonna debate that. However, my focus from what I quoted of you was purely you saying she's not human. You are talking like there's a dictionary definition of what makes a person human and there isn't. Love is expressed differently by everyone, and all those way are a part of being human. Look at it this way, from what we gather of Annie from currently released story material, what is her goal in life. As far as we can tell, all it is is survival for herself. Isn't that also single minded then? Mikasa's goal isn't her own survival but someone else's, that's the only difference, so why is Annie suddenly more human. Deviating from the human point, as for Mikasa having other goals, the setting of the story doesn't really allow it does it. What's the point of figuring out long term goals when you may die tomorrow, especially if ur in the recon corp. If her world is as peaceful as ours, and all she could still think about is Eren Eren, then that's a problem. But for now there really isn't a point to think about personal goals aside from Eren surviving, which equals to the survival of humanity right now anyhow.

2013-09-23, 14:40	Link #254
kitten320 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007	It was safe back then what means they could live a relaxing live like everyone else until Collosal titan appeared. Now that's where things change. __________________ My anime list

2013-09-23, 19:21	Link #256
kitten320 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007	Well to be honest they lived in a forest, can't really call it safe. Middle of the city is a safer place for sure. Everyone else were able to enjoy their life in one way or another and have goals. Living in same environment as Mikasa. I don't see why she should be an exception. While parents death is traumatizing it doesn't mean she has to fully dedicate herself to Eren now. And as I said Eren himself does not approve. If she can't see that her behaviour is earning a negative reaction from him... well I don't really know what to say. The point is she needs to start to think of something else apart from just Eren. She needs to widen her view. She seemed to achieve it when Eren supposedly died but once he came back she became her old Eren obsessed self. __________________ My anime list

2013-09-24, 05:19	Link #258
ahlecks ...that random guy... Join Date: May 2008 Location: you don't necessarily need to know	I don't get it, having a single minded desire to love your family and devote a part of what you do in your life for them is considered shallow? Isn't it at least half of what we do in life anyway? You devote it for your family, the other half for yourself, you can equate friends and other people in it. But at the end of the day an average normal human being devotes their lives for something that simple, and that's considered shallow? Well I don't really have a problem with being called shallow, I don't think I have what it takes to think about the whole world... Also I find it funny, that a lot of Mikasa's actions are being condemned due to how she single-mindedly pursues them, when fact is, Annie is no different really. Sure, Annie may have regretted having killed those many people, but truth is, despite that, she still aims for her goal. Not all that different from Mikasa. Also friends and bonds? Mikasa only really has Armin and Eren because of what she went through in life, I'm pretty sure its common in any media how a character who lost their family end up not making many good friends as a form of coping mechanism from that pain. Annie? she's pretty much the same (though I'm not too sure on what her actual reasons are for not making friends well), except for the few moments with Armin and Eren, she didn't really have many friends... Spoiler for events in manga: there's Bertholdt and Rainer, though we haven't really seen how close she is with these two at least from the manga, but I won't be surprised if its no different with Mikasa's relationship with Armin and Eren. Also both of them despite not outwardly showing it, do in fact care about the friends they made in 104th Training Corps. For Annie, its when she spared Armin twice. For Mikasa Spoiler for events in manga: It's when she subconsciously spared Bertholdt and Rainer, and this saddled with the fact that she decided focus on her job and not mess up, after she caused Levi's injury. There's also the fact that when Ymir showed willingness to attack the Recon Corps to interfere with them saving Eren, Mikasa herself showed willingness to listen to Krista and spare Ymir. Really, for all this justifications for Annie, I find it funny how the same can't be said for Mikasa, when they're almost fundamentally the same, only difference I can see is the scale of their goals. __________________ "You and your men are insufferable idiots bearing an odor suspiciously similar to that of a pigsty. I beg you, please refrain from showing your most undesirable faces in our presence again." -Fabiola Iglesias, Black Lagoon Last edited by ahlecks; 2013-09-24 at 05:22. Reason: spoiler header edit

2013-09-24, 08:39	Link #259
kitten320 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007	Does that mean you like stalkers? You don't mind for your girlfriend/sister to follow your EVERY step without really thinking for themselves? Are you ok with them being your shadow? Because that's basically all Mikasa does. It would be one thing if Eren didn't mind and another when he clearly does not approve of Mikasa's mind set. She is not doing it for Eren but for her own selfish reason. There really is no harm in giving him some space. Look at Jean, he cares for Mikasa but he is not following her. He has other goals and ideals in mind. Armin, he cares for his friends and even though originally he was their tail, he gradually grew into a person with new goals and ideals. It is not all about Eren and Mikasa any more even though he cares about them just as much as before. Mikasa managed to do that when Eren "died" but once he came back her personality reverted back to old/clingy/kinda selfish self. Pretty narrow too if she still hopes to win Eren's heart by not changing her ways. If Eren suddenly said he quits, she would too despite having talent and power to help. Old Armin would as well but not new one. He learned to think for himself and prioritize things, not Mikasa. How sad it wouldn't be, Eren seriously gets in the way of her character development. If he remained dead, she would be far more entertaining as a person. Basically for me it is not a fact that she cares for Eren, it is how she cares for him and how it effects her judgement and everything around her. There are many caring characters in fiction that are likeable, hers is leaning towards obsession that is not ok. And regarding Annie, me and lateraldeath had a discussion and came to following conclusion. While Annie's goals mostly lead to wanting to survive she also thinks about the world, what it should be like and how it could be changed. To boot her ideals are pretty reasonable, not of a crazed person. And no I'm not talking about her killing hundreds, we still don't know real reason for that. I'm talking about her conversation with Eren and that MP guy. What she said is not wrong. Just this small fact that Annie concerns herself with something else apart from survival, makes her more diverse person than Mikasa what automatically makes her more interesting in my eyes. And I'll be bias here but as said before I just don't like clingy people. As long as Mikasa keeps clinging to Eren like she does, I will not like her much. I can be neutral but I'll never like her. Same as several people admitted that even if Annie happens to have good reason, they still won't like her because she killed Petra. In my case Mikasa at least has a chance. P.S. Can someone name me the chapter and page number? I would like to take a proper look. EDIT: Spoiler for manga: Ok I found that part myself, she is not that bad as I claimed her to be. Apparently she decreased the impact of her attack. But obsessive dinginess is still a major issues with her character. __________________ My anime list Last edited by kitten320; 2013-09-24 at 11:19.

2013-09-24, 13:13	Link #260
LeoXiao 思想工作 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Vereinigte Staaten Age: 32	To be fair I don't think you can really call Mikasa clingy to the point of stalking. She's just really protective, which is normal since they're in a high-fatality conflict. It's no surprise that she is constantly worried about where he is and if he's okay. This isn't high school. What is true is that her character has been rather frozen development-wise for the last 1+ episodes, since her job of killing Titans and looking out for Eren hasn't changed. But the show isn't about Mikasa, and who knows, maybe she will get her development in season 2.