Rozen Maiden ~ Ouvertüre ~ Discussion Thread

[npal]

How come the regular version has a prettier cover?

Not to mention that some people might find the collector's cover offending

[the.Merines]

I find it appropriate. :gives:

[Blablabla]

I wish they had put a Shinku/Gin picture like the one showing the break between the two dolls. Because more than Gin, this is Ouverture's plot.

[Flo]

*looks at Limited Edition Cover* Woooo Shining Sliver Anti-Christ Cross, I like.

[Kageitenshi]

Upside down cross, aka. St. Peter's cross:

St. Peter is believed to have been crucified upside down at his own request, as he did not feel worthy to die the same way as Jesus. Therefore many Christian sects use this cross as a symbol of humility.

Ye, anti-christian indeed! Funny I remember that thing about St. Peter from school, I mostly slept during religion classes.

Flo, where's that siggie-pic of your's from? Seems like something worth watching if it's from a series. Besides, what's happened to your shock factor?

The Deluxe Pack's hard cardboard cover has the cross and contains the normal DVD case along with the CD extra, so nothing is lost. Damned thing is a bit too costly for my budget, must resist urge to buy.

[Flo]

Originally Posted by Kageitenshi

Flo, where's that siggie-pic of your's from? Seems like something worth watching if it's from a series. Besides, what's happened to your shock factor?

Stinku stole it all. That little theft. Now look what she did to my Junk.

jokes aside, too busy with army that I couldn't be bothered. But meh give or take

[Kageitenshi]

Hah! Lucky me I don't have to go through that again, been in reserve since Jan 14th 2004, just corporal... for some reason my subordinates didn't seem to like me

And here I was trying to avoid that particular thread all because I've already downloaded some gigabyte of RM pics and doujin, now I'll end up downloading new pics again! 98% of 460 gigabytes of HD space used and I can't afford a new 500 GB drive and a SATA expansion card.

[Flo]

Originally Posted by Kageitenshi

Hah! Lucky me I don't have to go through that again, been in reserve since Jan 14th 2004, just corporal... for some reason my subordinates didn't seem to like me

Dude who the hell in the freaking SAF would respect a corporal, they are just like privates with an ice cream badge who always get whacked left right center by superior ranks just like a private/recruit. The least people will fear/respect anyone in the army is at least sergeant amd above. At least that's wat I know

[Kageitenshi]

Lol, whole different deal in here in Finnish Self Defense Force, while indeed we're nothing but middle-men, we're still the ones who would ultimately keep our squad alive (or get them killed) by actually following orders through. Sergeants are nothing but buffed up corporals... when it comes to the ego-growth effect of adding another < on their sleeve and collar. Could get my sergeant's tag by merely volunteering for some training activities but can't be arsed.

Besides, wasn't exactly what I meant by not liking me... most of them thought I had something personal against them one wuss actually anonymously wrote on feedback that he's afraid of my cold attitude and lack of empathy, they sure as heck learned to respect and fear their superiors no matter the rank! ^_____^

[Flo]

Originally Posted by Kageitenshi

they sure as heck learned to respect and fear their superiors no matter the rank! ^_____^

I agree with this, people will take their superior for granted when fear and respect in not instilled regradless of rank.

That aside, I willing to cash out extra cash for the Anti-Christ Box Edition when I get my miserable pay. XD

[Kageitenshi]

Indeed, enough with the off-topic, that kind of determination sure makes me want to save cash for it as well! Next we'll have to start saving money for seasons 1 and 2 collections. Darned hard to find a job these days, would have to upgrade PC, buy Gin-sama dakimakura to help me sleep if they're back in stock and now these DVDs... and still have enough left for rent and almost forgot food

Is it just my imagination or is this thread withering away like a plant left without water... Seems as though my overgrown analysis on the purpose of the Alice Game was totally ignored as well

Oh well, there's more still, read it or not:

Personality and associations with the names (gemstones) and color choices of the clothes of the Rozen Maidens. Gemstones have long since been associated with certain personalities and have been used for these qualities in spiritual healing, witchcraft as well as alchemy.

Suigintou, Mercury Poisoning - "Mad as a hatter" - Alice in the Wonderland anyone? And really, who thinks mercury lamps were invented before 20th century, Mercury Lampe... silly translation for the name really. And the associations with the colors black and purple

Black is authoritative and powerful; because black can evoke strong emotions too much can be overwhelming. A classic color for clothing possibly because it makes the wearer appear thinner and more sophisticated.

Purple personalities are always striving to be better than they consider themselves to be, both on a spiritual, emotional and a mental plane...These people can be just a little frightening when they start searching for their holy grail...

Kanaria, yellow and orange, though to a lesser extent.

Making good leaders, they generally make up their mind in a methodical way. Every detail needs to be analyzed before they make a move. Any strategic game peaks their interest. Chess is the game for them.

Souseiseki, Lapis Lazuli Stern / Star

Blue is the overwhelming "favorite color." Blue is seen as trustworthy, dependable and committed. The color of sky and the ocean, blue is perceived as a constant in our lives. As the collective color of the spirit, it invokes rest and can cause the body to produce chemicals that are calming; however not all blues are serene and sedate. Electric or brilliant blues become dynamic and dramatic, an engaging color that expresses exhilaration. Some shades or the overuse of blue may come across as cold or uncaring. Blue is the least "gender specific" color, having equal appeal to both men and women.

Suiseiseki, while the association with Jade is a bit different in the west, Desu's personality fits better with the Chinese beliefs.

Ancient Chinese poets ascribed to this stone all the most desirable attributes of man - benevolence, knowledge, righteousness, virtuousness, purity, endurance, ingenuousness, morality, and, in its resonant quality, music.

Though she hides her tender qualities associated with the green color pretty well with the chibi-human, foot stomping and all.

Shinku, Reiner Rubin, Pure Ruby

A ruby personality is a rich, rich red; the color of strawberries or the color of wine. You have the wisdom of the King, and the beauty of the Queen of Gems. Your heart and mind are well balanced. These traits make you enjoy a position of authority where you can use your mind, your heart, and your body in your work. You like to be beautiful.

Hina-ichigo pink na-no~!

That's all for now, there's enough sources already for self study
If you don't see the connection to anything, then please read my overly long analysis on the previous page, duh.

[Chi-no]

It is a nice show but too bad ended in two esp. Now the story can understood as why Shinku was hated by suigintou ... As well as some other question...

[JKL]

Originally Posted by npal

How come the regular version has a prettier cover?

Not to mention that some people might find the collector's cover offending

To tell the truth, I ordered before the true case image was revealed.

And Kageitenshi, what you have to say is rather interesting so please continue.

[Kageitenshi]

How about being more specific as for what I should continue on? Didn't originally intent to even go as far as handing out these answers to some of the questions I hinted at on my original posts on this thread. Like the high probability that none of the Rozen Maidens are more or less suitable for becoming Alice as they'd seem to be one single being split into 7 aspects to begin with. Killing each other and one becoming the carrier of all the 7 Rosa Mysticae would be quite pointless as in the end, that one Maiden would become the sum of them all but wouldn't by far be perfect as for becoming the personification of selfishness, immorality and cruelty - "Perfect Girl" Alice my ass. Therefore it's highly likely that during their existence within their porcelain shells, they're supposed to find balance in their being, learn to follow the golden middle road, so to say as well as self sacrifice. One might argue that their mediums can be used to tap power for their tools of destruction, but on the contrary, who would they trust their lifes to and who would wind them up if not their medium? Who would teach them what it is to be human and all the pros and cons associated with that if not their medium?

I didn't come here to spit out my opinions as if they mattered, nor did I come here to chat, I came here to discuss about these things, not to hog the threads or to fill them with "nonsense" that few seem to bother to read with any thought just because one person asks me to. I have no reason to feed my ego with rep or comments that only state that what I've said is good or interesting if they do nothing to further the conversation (no pun intended). If no one else comes up with any questions or can point out flaws or add to my theories then I have no reason what-so-ever to post anything.

[Caiobrz]

Nice read >< but none really give an answer to my question.

Is that it? will we hang around guessing what happens after traumend?

Oh well, I would pretty much like a S3 or a OVA to COMPLETE the series, not to give me a prelude =x

Spoiler:

btw there is a grose error in overture. Shinku counts all the dolls as 7 and points out Gin as the first, except ... Gin was never a Rozen Maiden to start with, she only became one after killed during overture and restored by Rozen - receiving a rosa mistica. Shinku should not know about Gin at all, thus, her doll ordering is incorrect until they realise Gin is the first, pushing all the dolls "numbers" one back =p

[Kageitenshi]

If there were 7 Rosa Mysticae to begin with and Rozen had plans for all of them and if he had given the dolls a "serial number" and name before having even started to build them, then there's no contradictions or errors what so ever. Quite logically if I start building my first doll of a certain kind and give it my signature, name and the "number one out of a limited edition of seven" tag, it's still the first doll of its kind even if I finish the other six before it. Doesn't have to be physically printed on the dolls, but the dolls sure as heck know who they are and where they stand in the line even without a Rosa Mystica. So based on how Suigintou recognizes herself as being the first Rozen Maiden, she was obviously and without a doubt supposed to become the carrier of the first Rosa Mystica to begin with.

If I were to tell you that you are number five out of a group of seven people, it becomes a truth to you regardless of whether or not the six other people even exist! Therefore, Shinku knows that she's the fifth Rozen Maiden out of a total of seven and can safely assume that there are six others besides herself. She doesn't actually know WHO the first doll was since obviously she hasn't met her, but she knows that she has to exist. This is exactly what she explains to Sarah. Your point about the flaw breaks apart in itself, Shinku would actually have to know that the first Rozen Maiden hasn't even been finished yet in order to be able to assume that there are only 6 completed dolls with Kanaria being the first one to actually come to life. Since from her knowledge there are seven dolls in total, she can only assume that they're all finished and the numbers are correct. Neither did any of the dolls even know of the possibility that a Rozen Maiden could become animated without a Rosa Mystica, hence they could only assume that Suigintou claiming herself to be a Rozen Maiden was either a mistake like Shinku thought, or truth like Souseiseki concluded. Neither possibility could by any means overrule the fact that the dolls believe there to be 6 other Rozen Maidens besides themselves. Whether or not they exist is entirely irrelevant. Explained clearly enough?

Only if we had had an eight doll re-labeled as the first doll........ then I'd just wonder what the heck did Rozen leave a perfectly good doll unfinished for and went on to build another for the very same purpose he could have finished the original one with much less effort?
I'd go as far as saying that Rozen felt sorry for Suigintou, knowing she'd end up suffering from her given personality traits more than the other dolls. So he was insecure in whether or not he wanted Alice enough to cause hardships for his "children" and left her to be finished later when the other dolls would have matured enough to welcome Suigintou as is to a more understanding family of seven sisters. She just ended up becoming animated prematurely.

And of what we're to do from now on? If you think you've now got all the answers related to the first two seasons and actually understand it all now, then feel free to post to Peach-Pit asking where's the third season PLEASE?

Hm, I almost posted another novel's worth text about all kinds of things....
I'll just stick with fretting over a dead or at least dying thread all the while trying to find other things occupy myself with, other than posting nonsense.

[_duangelique]

Oh, God...the page went down and now I have to rewrite it all over again (and I'm so hungry right now!!!)
*sigh*
So,

I'd go as far as saying that Rozen felt sorry for Suigintou, knowing she'd end up suffering from her given personality traits more than the other dolls. So he was insecure in whether or not he wanted Alice enough to cause hardships for his "children" and left her to be finished later when the other dolls would have matured enough to welcome Suigintou as is to a more understanding family of seven sisters. She just ended up becoming animated prematurely.

Yeah, well, I think that Papa did know about the thing he was doing as much as we do, maybe he was celebrating his 100th birthday, and acting like a little child (second childhood-moon influence). I believe that Gin in the beggining was alive, complete and breathing, but then Papa regreted about *something* and dissembled her. When he found out the solution of the *problem*, he realized that her torso, and/or blueprints were lost, so he had to pass by to the other girls.
He probably didn't believe that an incomplete doll could carry a Rosa Mystica, so maybe he was working on it until Gin herself prove him -and her- that even without a RM and torso, she was able to do everything -and more- that a Rozen Maiden does. So he gave her the Rosa Mystica, and in Traümend he finally manage to fix her stomach.

Killing each other and one becoming the carrier of all the 7 Rosa Mysticae would be quite pointless as in the end, that one Maiden would become the sum of them all but wouldn't by far be perfect as for becoming the personification of selfishness, immorality and cruelty - "Perfect Girl" Alice my ass.

To me, if gaining each and every RM is the solution, then Alice would have the personality of the winner doll. Thus, it would be only a physical change, since we have seen that having another RM sharing the original one doesn't make any psycological change at all (Gin didn't turned into someone more compassive having Sou's Rm, and Shinku also didn't became sweeter -she kept scolding Jun- by having Hina's).
So, Alice should be a merge of all the seven personalities in one single body, but for avoiding the poor girl to become crazy, it has to be a totally different personality; one that can't be recognized as one of the sisters, taking their best qualities to the highest point -divinity? sanctity? after all, every saint had reached the title because of a life of pain and suffering, physically and spiritually...

Any typing mistake? there must be, cos this keyboard has all the keys erased.
*I am also desperate for the third season; my patience level lowers to -3.

[Kageitenshi]

Originally Posted by _duangelique

To me, if gaining each and every RM is the solution, then Alice would have the personality of the winner doll. Thus, it would be only a physical change, since we have seen that having another RM sharing the original one doesn't make any psycological change at all (Gin didn't turned into someone more compassive having Sou's Rm, and Shinku also didn't became sweeter -she kept scolding Jun- by having Hina's).

I am very much aware of this and that there was no change either cases, the emphasis on the word having since I don't think taking and having another Rosa Mystica would make much of a difference, just like taking someone's candy would only make you have their candy and being able to wave it around to others but you didn't absorb it yet for it to become a part of you. A bit simple explanation but clearly the two Rosa Mysticae in either cases didn't in any way merge together to become one.

So, Alice should be a merge of all the seven personalities in one single body, but for avoiding the poor girl to become crazy, it has to be a totally different personality; one that can't be recognized as one of the sisters, taking their best qualities to the highest point -divinity? sanctity? after all, every saint had reached the title because of a life of pain and suffering, physically and spiritually...

Any typing mistake? there must be, cos this keyboard has all the keys erased.
*I am also desperate for the third season; my patience level lowers to -3.

No question about it that indeed she couldn't possibly share all the seven conscious personas, I'm talking personality traits and their balancing qualities based on the dolls' life experiences as well as their abilities, not all their memories and such merged into one schizophrenic horribly disfigured or split personality. But point remains that if any one doll would become the "winner" they would have gained that status by a course of destruction and Rozen seems to be against this approach himself. Quite basically, having a violent past would make any good person sad. What Alice actually is was simply my hypothesis and I'm hoping I'll be pleasantly surprised with the third season coming up with something I haven't even thought of as a possibility.

This whole winner thing is what scares me about people, they seem to think that if indeed the only option for the dolls to become Alice is elimination (or any competition really), then out of arrogance they go as far as claiming one or another doll to be more suitable than the other (one-self if participating, there are far too many sore losers, in war... well.)
Winner of what? The "you're bigger an asshole than I am" - award? The "Biggest Ego" award? Wouldn't go handing out the Nobel Peace Prize for such a "perfect girl" no matter high and mighty they might feel about their achievements.
Winning is but an illusion, only one can win and the others suffer? The mentality of a winner indeed, the king or queen of a lonely throne on top of it all without equals. Check my signature for one thing; kill the competition and your life is as worthless as the value you put on the lives of those you violate.

If you would only give this Alice the "best" qualities of the dolls, then what good would this Alice be without knowing what it is to be evil? Worth a scale missing the other half, it can only tip to one side without knowing of the other. So, in order to balance this scale, we need both good and evil as well as the support in the middle, so that the scale can be tipped to either side when needed, but will always return to a balance on its own. A perfect amount of good needs a perfect amount of evil to balance the scale, not knowing of the other half would be an imperfection. Give one the perfect weapon and they'd be vulnerable to all other weapons without an equal shield. Give another the perfect shield and they can only defend. In the end neither can defeat each other, so in order to reach perfection in both aspects is to combine the two. Besides, what the heck does saints have anything to do with Alice?

Think of the basic things you wouldn't like others to do to you, like hurting you, disliking you for being just yourself, ignoring you when you grave for attention and all this kind of simple stuff. Now go on and ignore these things and violate others all you like. You'd be no saint and far from perfect no matter what your name or origins were. Even worse if it were to be done by what is supposed to be the personification of perfection in beauty and all moral and ethical. In other words, knowing when to be gentle and when to be stern, when to be subtle and when to be bold and the list goes on and no more than anything with moderation and violence only at the utmost cases, not for selfish purposes since someone perfect would also know self sacrifice.

People tend to judge their perceptions to be the correct ones ignoring all the controversy from other sources as irrelevant even at the cost of lives in extreme cases. Ignoring the problem doesn't make it go away. The right choices are rarely the easy ones, going with the flow is "I guess I have no other choice but to kill my sisters or be killed myself" or "it's the way of the Alice game, prepare to die" rather than "I'd rather live with my sisters than sacrifice them for only myself being able to see Father." Desu is no better really, she just frets over the fighting without wanting to intervene directly since it would mean putting her own precious skin on the line.

Yes well, lucky us at the end of Träumend these things took a turn for the better.

[Chi-no]

Wait a minute ... I thought in the 2nd season, the 7th doll of Rozen didn't met them right ? The 7th doll that fought with them is not made by Rozen right ?

[npal]

Originally Posted by Kageitenshi

If you would only give this Alice the "best" qualities of the dolls, then what good would this Alice be without knowing what it is to be evil? Worth a scale missing the other half, it can only tip to one side without knowing of the other. So, in order to balance this scale, we need both good and evil as well as the support in the middle, so that the scale can be tipped to either side when needed, but will always return to a balance on its own. A perfect amount of good needs a perfect amount of evil to balance the scale, not knowing of the other half would be an imperfection. Give one the perfect weapon and they'd be vulnerable to all other weapons without an equal shield. Give another the perfect shield and they can only defend. In the end neither can defeat each other, so in order to reach perfection in both aspects is to combine the two. Besides, what the heck does saints have anything to do with Alice?

Think of the basic things you wouldn't like others to do to you, like hurting you, disliking you for being just yourself, ignoring you when you grave for attention and all this kind of simple stuff. Now go on and ignore these things and violate others all you like. You'd be no saint and far from perfect no matter what your name or origins were. Even worse if it were to be done by what is supposed to be the personification of perfection in beauty and all moral and ethical. In other words, knowing when to be gentle and when to be stern, when to be subtle and when to be bold and the list goes on and no more than anything with moderation and violence only at the utmost cases, not for selfish purposes since someone perfect would also know self sacrifice.

You do realize that a sword or shield aren't inherently good or evil, right? They are tools, it's the cause they are used that can give us reasons to define them as being good or evil. Just wanted to point that out.

Also, the examples you use "gentle/stern, subtle/bold" can't be placed into a Good-Evil axis. Plus, although many actions DO need their counter (e.g. not hurting is a negative definition, therefore it needs the original unnegated concept to be understood - that's why scientists don't like negative definitions, they give nothing useful), there are actions that are defined as good without being negated to do so. Therefore in those cases, you don't need their opposite to define them. But you are right on the first part. If I use a negative definition to define something good, then the natural question for someone who really needs to understand what I said would be "what is the definition of the unnegated?" So, indeed, in a number of cases, you need to be INFORMED (no, you don't need to have actually DONE or BE something) of what actions are considered Evil, so you can understand what actions are considered good or at the very least not evil, cause there's a problem with negation, since something not evil isn't automatically good and something not good isn't automatically evil. Effectively, you need to have a good load of definitions in the middle, only the two scales aren't enough.

But I will argue that the "perfect doll" must have what are considered "negative qualities". It doesn't NEED to be evil as well as good, it just needs to be INFORMED of what is evil, while being good. Knowing what is evil doesn't mean someone IS evil as much as he is good, the minimum requirement is being informed, the same way as knowing good or knowing the middle doesn't mean BEING good or in the middle.