Romance in Macross (Take 2)

[Amalia]

I believe that he technically fell for her after the Star Date's goodbye kiss

when you say Sakura Yukito you mean from Cardcaptor?

Because if it is this then Sakura fell in love with tsundere Saoran and if this means Alto ends up with Sheryl then I would be more than happy. (Alto/Sheryl fan here!! )

I agree that Ranka tried but Alto was somewhere else already. Yes he happened to click with Sheryl. For some reason I think that these two match with each other. Anyway, I think that Ranka's efforts were good it's just that if a guy doesn't like you in the the way a boy likes a girl then these efforts are just going to sink even if they are the best. The guy will just say "Thank you" and he will trully keep like you because you are such a good girl, and I think that happened with Ranka.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by karice67

1. er...I'm not sure I'm following you. If you don't know the consequences of it, why would you chastise him/her? Also, I'm not sure this is the best example to use, because there is a line of thought that you should go all out for what you really want to do, even if it might not fit what society or your elders think is best for you.
2. Touche. Though considering that she came to save them, is scolding her immediately the right response? Personally, I'd save it for after I get her home safely.
3. Ideally, yes. Realistically, I would say that most 17-year-olds wouldn't be Nazis about a friend breaking the law - typically because they themselves don't understand the significance/importance of those laws in the first place. And Ranka's obviously had Ai-kun for a while and is attached to it - Alto dismissed it as being relatively unimportant compared to the fact that she had her live the next day, i.e. he put her mental well-being first. Should he have? No...but rather than strongly objecting there and then (which would have had an adverse effect, I reckon), he probably should have checked up on it himself. One of his flaws, yes, but a rather accurate depiction of what a typical teenager would have done.

1. Thing is she knew about the consequences of following his advice, however he didn't when he gave her that advice. Ranka knew what the consequences were, and did not consider them when she blindly followed Alto's advice. The truth is that Ranka at that time was potentially messing up her future. If she didn't have Mihoshi academy to fall back on where would she go to school? Remember Michael already called her out on it.
2. It was life or situation. What if she wasn't successful? She ran head first into a situation without considering the re precautions of it.
3. Nanase did point out to her, that she should report Ai-kun to the proper authorities. But when Ranka started pleading how much she liked Ai-kun Nanase cracked. Also consider this they are in a closed environment in the middle of space, so having a unknown creature in the ship is very dangerous to them because if it carries a disease there would be no place for them to run. Their society is not our society, so trying to find our world's equivalent is a moot point. Also consider this if she had reported Ai-kun to proper authorities it maybe would have sparked an investigation and they would have found the Vajra in Frontier, which in turn would have prevented episodes 19-21.

Sure. But are they all normal 16/17 year olds? No. (Even Nanase - going by spoilers in the novel thread.)

Yes actually they are, they are all in the same grade, and are of the same age.

I know I'm not really defending her. Maybe I should have just said "you don't have to bother pointing out stuff, because it wouldn't make much of a difference to me anyway." On the flip side, if I don't quite see the logic of something that is pointed out, I will try to find loopholes, which is silly of me when you're all actually supporting the pairing I prefer anyway.

That doesn't say that we can't still disagree on certain areas.

Er...talking about the !CCS Shaoran though...

And I was talking about Alto

Originally Posted by ippus

I disagree once again, because I find it difficult to assume that Ranka's immaturity was the sole and/or greatest reason for why she couldn't and shouldn't win the triangle, because I don't feel like Sheryl was vastly more mature herself.

I feel that Sheryl only really seems more mature because she never gets to do any great leaps in the story, like go searching for answers about her past (since any history of her we get to know about was found by other characters), or get kidnapped by random monsters that are attracted to her. She spends the first half of the show under Grace's watch, and the latter part sick. Her time to do something exciting like sing to giant, war loving Zentradi hordes was stolen from her by illness and Ranka's show, and her moment as the new Songstress of hope was completely swallowed by SharonApple!Ranka (in short it was kind of a joke until Ranka magically cured her;; )

On the rare occasion that she does do something drastically crazy, she chose to randomly enroll in an academy to follow (*coughstalkcough*) a guy she found interesting, in a field she had zero talent in (lmao). She destroyed most of the said academy chasing after her underwear (mature? really?) and hell, she stole a date with Alto by blackmailing his most important charm (in with my boobies you go~) whilst making sure the entire academy knew he was her personal slave XD

In short she didn't really get to do very much, nor did her environment allow her to flaunt her very VERY apparent immaturity, but when she finally did it's obvious that...Sheryl-sama is one big whacko ]D.

What made her immaturity and crazy ass antics work, is that Alto reciprocated her interest. I know for a fact that I wouldn't have liked the AruSheri shipping as much (or at all, even if I would still have been an immense Sheriru-sama fan and hated Alto with a passion) if Alto didn't react to her. If he paid attention to Ranka and if he went to visit her by choice rather than be called or dragged along by other people, Sheryl would have been the pest fringe Ranka-fans keep accusing her of being.

Sheryl definitely has her moments of immaturity, but consider this how many people did she hurt with her actions? Though Sheryl was actually serious about those flying lessons, you find out that in the third CD drama (Cathy by the way is a horrible teacher, but at least Sheryl learned how be hot blooded in the cockpit.) I recommend you listen to it, its both insightful and hilarious (it has the scene with Alto and Sheryl competing in the waitress uniform in Nyan Nyan). Interestingly enough the movie actually made so that Sheryl and Ranka both share the same powers and past, and Sheryl seems to be the same Sheryl from the tv series. TV series Sheryl did have a past, but she didn't really show an interest in finding out about it. Although with all that they were hinting at it so much both from supplemental material and the show itself.

Yeah Sheryl is by no means perfect, and actually truckload of flaws, but doesn't really hurt anybody with them (just herself). I do somewhat agree with you on what you said about if Alto actually showed an interest in Ranka then more people would probably support them. But it isn't really that simple, the problem also lies in chemistry, and a bunch of other things. Though we can never say for sure considering that Alto did show an interest in Sheryl romantically, and didn't do so for Ranka.

I can't agree because nobody goes through that many processes before pursuing someone romantically. Perhaps if you are deeply traumatized by past relationships gone horribly wrong, but usually fictional relationships are never about rationality, it's simply about chemistry and the unexplainable. Alto and Sheryl clicked, that's all there really is to it.

I believe Ranka did try. She just couldn't because Alto was never on the same page as her. She ended up hopelessly flailing around before finally realizing giant gap between them at the worst possible moment.

Sure, she went on to do idiotic things but in her defense, everyone was so preoccupied with their own lives that only Yes-man Manslut Burera was giving her advice on what to do next X'D. Too bad it seems idiotic ideas happens to run in the family ]D (It's okay Manslut, I love you. Please find a good hawt looking seme to r@pe u plx. You're too hawtastic for a woman.) but I don't feel it's grounds for her NOT to have a relationship until she grows up- but rather grounds for her to find a matching person interested enough in her to want her to grow- and not just dote like crazy as manslut did XD

She also wasn't in a relationship so i don't see how you can conclude that she's incapable of handling the stress brought about by one XD

But at the same time no one normal ever wishes to die when the person they like doesn't like them back. Nor do they run from one person to another based on who agrees with them. That's what I meant.

How did Ranka try exactly? She certainly didn't try to understand Alto, she was more willing to talk about herself than ask about him. You can say that there wasn't a page for Alto to be on. Also considering that she went right back around in episode 25 to trying to compete for Alto's affection even though there was a gap large enough to fit a small body of water by then, you could say that she learned nothing.

While I can concede and agree that if Ranka finds the right man who will help to grow she will be better off than she was before.

[Amalia]

so...erm where do all these lead us? Alto Sheryl end up together .....?

[karice67]

Originally Posted by ippus

@karice67:[/B] Neither did I say you did XD i merely pointed out that you disproved its possibility.

well...I should probably have just said I didn't think it was a fair example, given that Alto wouldn't think that what Ranka did was all that wrong based on his own principles.

On Sheryl's immaturity...I feel that she was generally mature when she needed to be. (Most young people don't behave in a particularly mature way when they're flirting...though I can't say much about the school antics...)

Originally Posted by wisteria233

1. Thing is she knew about the consequences of following his advice, however he didn't when he gave her that advice. Ranka knew what the consequences were, and did not consider them when she blindly followed Alto's advice. The truth is that Ranka at that time was potentially messing up her future. If she didn't have Mihoshi academy to fall back on where would she go to school? Remember Michael already called her out on it.

Ok, get it now. You meant that she knew the consequences at the point where he encouraged her to follow her dream. I'm not sure how much you know about the school system that Frontier's schools are probably based on though, given that the writers and intended audience are Japanese. Whilst it was an incredibly serious punishment where I grew up, suspension isn't a huge thing in Japan (though it's kind of complicated to explain - e.g. you can be suspended for being caught outside after 10pm without your guardian), even in private schools.

As for the transfer...there seems to be a bit of a contradiction. Ranka says that she couldn't stay at her former school "because she'd started working" (I've heard that many private schools in Japan don't allow their students to work)...but wasn't she working at Nyan-nyan before?

Also, I'm sorry, but I've only ever seen Frontier once. Whilst there are some resources I can call upon to try and look things up to watch them again, I can't always find them. Would you mind referencing the episode for things like this: "Remember Michael already called her out on it."? (Michael called her out on the suspension?)

Originally Posted by wisteria233

2. It was life or situation. What if she wasn't successful? She ran head first into a situation without considering the re precautions of it.

Consider this: she couldn't have gotten there if not for the co-operation of certain other people. If she was to be cautioned, it should have taken place BEFORE she was brought to Gallia 4. Or she shouldn't even have been brought there in the first place. What can Alto say against something that his superiors decided?

Originally Posted by wisteria233

3. Also consider this they are in a closed environment in the middle of space, so having a unknown creature in the ship is very dangerous to them because if it carries a disease there would be no place for them to run. Their society is not our society, so trying to find our world's equivalent is a moot point. Also consider this if she had reported Ai-kun to proper authorities it maybe would have sparked an investigation and they would have found the Vajra in Frontier, which in turn would have prevented episodes 19-21.

It seems that we disagree on our opinions of human nature, and on what the writers would have wanted to create for the show. It may be a fictional society, but I think that human nature is essentially the same, or at least, very similar, no matter the society. Not every teenager is going to pay attention to rules and rationalise them the way you do. (Heck, not even all adults do that.) And the writers obviously wanted to go with 19-21, not only for plot purposes, but also as an example to the audience about why laws are important.

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Yes actually they are, they are all in the same grade, and are of the same age.

But have they had the same level of experiences? Have they had experiences normal for 16/17 year olds? Someone who is living with death as a distinct possibility everyday (e.g. Michel and Luca, not to mention the latter being somewhat of a scientist) would be very different from someone who has been sheltered most of her life.

Originally Posted by wisteria233

And I was talking about Alto

Ok. I found it odd because you didn't specify that before (and I felt I was clearly talking about Shaoran, who isn't really all that much like Alto).

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by karice67

Ok, get it now. You meant that she knew the consequences at the point where he encouraged her to follow her dream. I'm not sure how much you know about the school system that Frontier's schools are probably based on though, given that the writers and intended audience are Japanese. Whilst it was an incredibly serious punishment where I grew up, suspension isn't a huge thing in Japan (though it's kind of complicated to explain - e.g. you can be suspended for being caught outside after 10pm without your guardian), even in private schools.

As for the transfer...there seems to be a bit of a contradiction. Ranka says that she couldn't stay at her former school "because she'd started working" (I've heard that many private schools in Japan don't allow their students to work)...but wasn't she working at Nyan-nyan before?

Also, I'm sorry, but I've only ever seen Frontier once. Whilst there are some resources I can call upon to try and look things up to watch them again, I can't always find them. Would you mind referencing the episode for things like this: "Remember Michael already called her out on it."? (Michael called her out on the suspension?)

If it suspension wasn't a big thing then why transfer? We can pretty much discern the fact that she is able to work at Nyan Nyan as meaning that her school is not against its students working. Then again for all we know Ranka may have entered the Miss Macross contest last minute and skipped school to do it without informing her teachers, and was suspended for it. From that it seems like Ranka was the one stalking Alto.

The episode right after she gets suspended and sends Alto the message- aka the Star Date episode. In that episode Ranka actually sent an text message to Alto who was in the middle of class, but Alto didn't leave until school was over, nor did he pick up his phone until class was over.

Consider this: she couldn't have gotten there if not for the co-operation of certain other people. If she was to be cautioned, it should have taken place BEFORE she was brought to Gallia 4. Or she shouldn't even have been brought there in the first place. What can Alto say against something that his superiors decided?

Except that it was Michael that decided it on a whim, and Ranka who agreed to it. They never said that Alto's commanders had anything to do with it, and they most likely didn't considering that Ranka is Ozma's precious little sister.

It seems that we disagree on our opinions of human nature, and on what the writers would have wanted to create for the show. It may be a fictional society, but I think that human nature is essentially the same, or at least, very similar, no matter the society. Not every teenager is going to pay attention to rules and rationalise them the way you do. (Heck, not even all adults do that.) And the writers obviously wanted to go with 19-21, not only for plot purposes, but also as an example to the audience about why laws are important.

How did we get from talking about how Alto should have scolded Ranka when she brought an unidentified creature into a closed society, to talking about human nature?

But have they had the same level of experiences? Have they had experiences normal for 16/17 year olds? Someone who is living with death as a distinct possibility everyday (e.g. Michael and Luca, not to mention the latter being somewhat of a scientist) would be very different from someone who has been sheltered most of her life.

That's the thing they don't Ranka was way too coddled and was more inexperienced in life than her peers. Unfortunately for Ranka these are her peers, and so she will be compared to them, or should we compare to the girls in the Miss Macross competition? Or Minmei?

Ok. I found it odd because you didn't specify that before (and I felt I was clearly talking about Shaoran, who isn't really all that much like Alto).

If I was talking about Syaoran I would have said one of the best Tsundere of the late 90's.

[Foreshadow]

Originally Posted by ippus

@Foreshadow: I disagree once again, because I find it difficult to assume that Ranka's immaturity was the sole and/or greatest reason for why she couldn't and shouldn't win the triangle, because I don't feel like Sheryl was vastly more mature herself.

I feel that Sheryl only really seems more mature because she never gets to do any great leaps in the story, like go searching for answers about her past (since any history of her we get to know about was found by other characters), or get kidnapped by random monsters that are attracted to her. She spends the first half of the show under Grace's watch, and the latter part sick. Her time to do something exciting like sing to giant, war loving Zentradi hordes was stolen from her by illness and Ranka's show, and her moment as the new Songstress of hope was completely swallowed by SharonApple!Ranka (in short it was kind of a joke until Ranka magically cured her;; )

On the rare occasion that she does do something drastically crazy, she chose to randomly enroll in an academy to follow (*coughstalkcough*) a guy she found interesting, in a field she had zero talent in (lmao). She destroyed most of the said academy chasing after her underwear (mature? really?) and hell, she stole a date with Alto by blackmailing his most important charm (in with my boobies you go~) whilst making sure the entire academy knew he was her personal slave XD

In short she didn't really get to do very much, nor did her environment allow her to flaunt her very VERY apparent immaturity, but when she finally did it's obvious that...Sheryl-sama is one big whacko ]D.

What made her immaturity and crazy ass antics work, is that Alto reciprocated her interest. I know for a fact that I wouldn't have liked the AruSheri shipping as much (or at all, even if I would still have been an immense Sheriru-sama fan and hated Alto with a passion) if Alto didn't react to her. If he paid attention to Ranka and if he went to visit her by choice rather than be called or dragged along by other people, Sheryl would have been the pest fringe Ranka-fans keep accusing her of being.

Sheryl's mature enough to know that she needs to project her feelings to get the other party interested. Ranka? not so much. Ranka hasn't matured to the point that she's willing to move her crush beyond a crush. Sheryl knew what she wanted and knew how to get it. Get Alto? Go to his school. Get him on a date? Exploit his weakness . She knows how to react properly when she runs into someone she's interested in.

Sheryl knows that she just needs to be herself and it all starts with spending time together. You don't see much of Ranka actively pursuing Alto without some sort of excuse to do so. She harbors her crush, and that's about it. Ranka's mindset is I'm ok with seeing him from afar, even as she finally confesses as she leaves in Ep 20.

People grow with Experience and mature from those experiences. Trial and error. Nobody gets it right the first time. It's not Ranka's fault she isn't mature enough to properly attempt to engage in a relationship with Alto. But it is one of her major downfalls in the triangle.

Even that little bit of maturity makes all the difference. At the same time, Sheryl isn't afraid to shy away from responsibility when pressure is placed on her. In harmless situations what's wrong with being immature? It's when not being mature enough to accept responsibility is when it really hurts (In relationships and in life).

[ippus]

@wisteria: I think you're missing something here so I'll state it in case it was not obvious in my giant rambles of d00m XD

I do not refute that Ranka is an immature brat. Seeing as even Nakajima of all people would think her character needs to learn to become more mature, I don't think anyone would try to refute it. My issue was in your statement that claimed Ranka should not seek ANY sort of relationship at all until she learns to be a more mature person.

On a purely fictional perspective, it's asking for an exceedingly boring story, since only immature people would go as far as flying into the battlegrounds singing a KIRA~! song in the name of someone's birthday. On a realistic level, it's unreasonable and harsh, since relationships are part of growing up. It simply LASTS when they grow a certain amount of maturity, but that isn't a 100% given either on any perspective.

My other issue was in your definition of the personalities that should be allowed to have relationships- which ended up sounding like some pre-pregnancy/family making preparation brochures;; When people fall in love and pursue each other, they do it simply because they fall in love. Such a long and intricate thought process doesn't exist unless they are exceedingly traumatized by past relationships, or are thinking of having a baby;;

I also have NOTHING against Sheryl. I haven't liked a female character this much in a long time, and I adore everything from her best moments to her greatest flaws. I have nothing EVER against Sheryl Nome.

[ippus]

Originally Posted by Foreshadow

Sheryl's mature enough to know that she needs to project her feelings to get the other party interested. Ranka? not so much. Ranka hasn't matured to the point that she's willing to move her crush beyond a crush. Sheryl knew what she wanted and knew how to get it. Get Alto? Go to his school. Get him on a date? Exploit his weakness . She knows how to react properly when she runs into someone she's interested in.

Sheryl knows that she just needs to be herself and it all starts with spending time together. You don't see much of Ranka actively pursuing Alto without some sort of excuse to do so. She harbors her crush, and that's about it. Ranka's mindset is I'm ok with seeing him from afar, even as she finally confesses as she leaves in Ep 20.

People grow with Experience and mature from those experiences. Trial and error. Nobody gets it right the first time. It's not Ranka's fault she isn't mature enough to properly attempt to engage in a relationship with Alto. But it is one of her major downfalls in the triangle.

Even that little bit of maturity makes all the difference. At the same time, Sheryl isn't afraid to shy away from responsibility when pressure is placed on her. In harmless situations what's wrong with being immature? It's when not being mature enough to accept responsibility is when it really hurts (In relationships and in life).

But I believe maturity simply wouldn't have mattered if Alto was interested in finding more out about her, and being around with her. As I have mentioned before, Alto has always been summoned by her or dragged by others to her (or met by coincidence XD). He never bothered to initiate if her life wasn't in direct threat.

Whereas with Sheryl he always actively sought her out.

Ranka tried to hang around. She talked animatedly about her aspirations, but it was always Alto who left the subject where it is and rarely opened up until asked directly near the end. I don't feel like Sheryl knew all too much about Alto either other than the blatantly obvious or stuff other people tells her.

[Foreshadow]

Originally Posted by ippus

But I believe maturity simply wouldn't have mattered if Alto was interested in finding more out about her, and being around with her. As I have mentioned before, Alto has always been summoned by her or dragged by others to her (or met by coincidence XD). He never bothered to initiate if her life wasn't in direct threat.

Whereas with Sheryl he always actively sought her out.

Ranka tried to hang around. She talked animatedly about her aspirations, but it was always Alto who left the subject where it is and rarely opened up until asked directly near the end. I don't feel like Sheryl knew all too much about Alto either other than the blatantly obvious or stuff other people tells her.

That's a pretty big If that you're trying to insert there.

He sought out Sheryl because she was mature enough to respond to her interest in him to seek him out first, and perk his interest in her. He enjoyed her company and sought it out more.

Ranka probably didn't know it takes more then one to be in a relationship. Talking about yourself in the situation is fantastic, but bridges need to be made and connections shared. She didn't make the same effort that Sheryl did to connect with Alto. The blatantly obvious and information she learned by talking to others is that much more information that Sheryl knew then Ranka did.

[raeryne]

Originally Posted by karice67

Er...talking about the !CCS Shaoran though...

@ raeryne

Spoiler for on Shaoran:

Going by the original definition of tsundere as someone who starts off being hostile but eventually becomes affectionate to a character (usu. the main character). (from Lucky Star).

In CCS, he starts off as a rival for Yukito and the Clow Cards, but eventually falls in love with Sakura. And he LITERALLY becomes lovestruck when he's around her.

Thanks so much!now I get it!...sorry, I'm new with all the terms in the anime world such as tsundere...well not new as in never heard before...more like new as in didn't get the right meaning of the terms...(I thought tsundere means being mean to the one you love and being sweet to him/her at particular intervals or circumstances)...well, now I know and I owe it to you karice67...

Originally Posted by Amalia

so...erm where do all these lead us? Alto Sheryl end up together .....?

I hope it does...I REALLY HOPE IT DOES...

about Sheryl's immaturity though...I think it's more childlike than childish...both signify immaturity but not entirely on the same level...(I know, I know...putting other people's things in your 'chest', stalking people and kissing them out of the blue are far from being childlike...still, I just can't say Sheryl is THAT much immature...(or is it just my bias?)

[karice67]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

If it suspension wasn't a big thing then why transfer? We can pretty much discern the fact that she is able to work at Nyan Nyan as meaning that her school is not against its students working. Then again for all we know Ranka may have entered the Miss Macross contest last minute and skipped school to do it without informing her teachers, and was suspended for it.

Because of the type of work (performance, which probably required her to miss a lot of school). Nyan-nyan is work after school, and she probably had to get permission for that. In Japan, skipping school isn't a big deal either. A private school that my friend works at allows up to 1/5 of classes to be skipped without notice - at normal public schools, it's 1/3. If you actually have a valid reason to skip school, they typically record you as being present, but with the number of classes she potentially would have had to skip, Ranka's school might have put its foot down. Remember, she applied for the transfer after she got a contract, after Ozma allowed her to start on the path of a music career.

Trust me, her suspension was only related to her transfer in so much as the fact that both were motivated by her dream to become a singer.

Whilst we're on the topic, a suspension usually has two basic consequences: one, the missed classes are counted towards the allowed quota of skipped classes, and two, if the behaviour is not corrected, yes, the student's future can be affected. Unacceptable behaviour can result in indefinite suspension and expulsion, but not for what Ranka has done.

Originally Posted by wisteria233

The episode right after she gets suspended and sends Alto the message- aka the Star Date episode. In that episode Ranka actually sent an text message to Alto who was in the middle of class, but Alto didn't leave until school was over, nor did he pick up his phone until class was over.

hm...I gather you're using this as an example of how strict schools are on Frontier? In Japan, mobile phones are generally banned in class, and it's not the best idea to skip, but in terms of punishment, it's way more lenient than my own school back home.

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Except that it was Michael that decided it on a whim, and Ranka who agreed to it. They never said that Alto's commanders had anything to do with it, and they most likely didn't considering that Ranka is Ozma's precious little sister.

Even if Ozma didn't know, Michael and Luca are superiors at least in authority. Michael also cautioned Alto to think about Ranka's feelings before sending him back with her. I don't think it would have been right for Alto to scold her in that case, but if you do, that's fine with me.

Originally Posted by wisteria233

How did we get from talking about how Alto should have scolded Ranka when she brought an unidentified creature into a closed society, to talking about human nature?

We went from

Originally Posted by karice67

3. Ideally, yes. Realistically, I would say that most 17-year-olds wouldn't be Nazis about a friend breaking the law - typically because they themselves don't understand the significance/importance of those laws in the first place...Alto dismissed it as being relatively unimportant compared to the fact that she had her live the next day, i.e. he put her mental well-being first.

to

Originally Posted by wisteria233

they are in a closed environment in the middle of space, so having a unknown creature in the ship is very dangerous to them because if it carries a disease there would be no place for them to run. Their society is not our society, so trying to find our world's equivalent is a moot point.

You think he should have called her out on it there and then because that everyone on Frontier is eco-conscious because of the system they have. I think that what he does in that situation is pretty accurate for a 17yo given the context, i.e. that humans are humans even on Frontier. That's what I meant by human nature.

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Unfortunately for Ranka these are her peers, and so she will be compared to them, or should we compare to the girls in the Miss Macross competition? Or Minmei?

All I'm trying to suggest is that, sometimes, we're a bit too harsh on Ranka.

Originally Posted by wisteria233

If I was talking about Syaoran I would have said one of the best Tsundere of the late 90's.

Tsubasa Tokyo Revelations, which has another Shaoran, was released from late 2007 to 2008. Also, if you'd care to take advice about using English, it would have been less confusing if you'd used Alto's name. A pronoun is usually understood to be referring to the last named person of that gender (in the conversation/thread), which in this case, was Shaoran.

[Amalia]

Personally i think that Sheryl is immature as a teenage 17 year old should be. I mean, when she drops her idol facade she remains a simple girl who is in love and does everything to get the attention of the boy she is in love with.
But on the other hand she has the maturity to persuade and win her love. She plays that part in a very clever way, whereas Ranka is unable to do it.

Sheryl is in love with Alto, so she does everything to show him that fact. Even the kiss on the episode "Star date", is a kiss that declares that now she has a crush on him. that she likes being around him...After all it was an ideal kiss...during the sunset.

Then we have the first kiss that she literally stole from him during the movie...she showed him that it is not JUST a kiss when you get kissed by someone that you like, or you have a crush on. She showed him teh importance of that kiss.
So he shouldn't get frustrated when she told him it was a joke and it was JUST a kiss as he said so earlier. But Alto got irritated, right?

I mean Sheryl acts pretty mature when she has to show him that she is in love with him. She went to his school, she dragged him along with her in that date by using his weakness, as wisteria ( I think) mentioned in another post).

Ranka is just the typical girl who has a crush on someone and does nothing but quietly observing the boy that she has the crush on, falling in love with another girl. Alto was there only when she called him to be there. He never was by chance or because he wanted to be there on his own.
With Sheryl was there because he wanted to be...
That's why it seems that their relationship is a more mature one. It's the kind of relationship that a boy/girl share and not a brother/sister.
With Ranka you get that feeling...

Also when Klan said to Alto that Sheryl is in love with him and that she's dying, so he shouldn't make the same mistake as her and Michael, Alto went to his father's house and we know very well what happened there. It was like Klan opened his eyes in how he sees Sheryl and how he sees Ranka.
He loves Ranka, but in another way than the one that he loves Sheryl.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by karice67

Because of the type of work (performance, which probably required her to miss a lot of school). Nyan-nyan is work after school, and she probably had to get permission for that. In Japan, skipping school isn't a big deal either. A private school that my friend works at allows up to 1/5 of classes to be skipped without notice - at normal public schools, it's 1/3. If you actually have a valid reason to skip school, they typically record you as being present, but with the number of classes she potentially would have had to skip, Ranka's school might have put its foot down. Remember, she applied for the transfer after she got a contract, after Ozma allowed her to start on the path of a music career.

But Ranka's school is a private school, and considering that Ranka didn't exactly skip class to go about her career, and her absences would be excused. Not only that but I think that Mihoshi academy is also a private school, its certainly not a normal public school. We are also not sure about the facilities that her previous school had, so again why transfer?

Trust me, her suspension was only related to her transfer in so much as the fact that both were motivated by her dream to become a singer.

Whilst we're on the topic, a suspension usually has two basic consequences: one, the missed classes are counted towards the allowed quota of skipped classes, and two, if the behaviour is not corrected, yes, the student's future can be affected. Unacceptable behaviour can result in indefinite suspension and expulsion, but not for what Ranka has done.

But how does this pertain to Ranka?

hm...I gather you're using this as an example of how strict schools are on Frontier? In Japan, mobile phones are generally banned in class, and it's not the best idea to skip, but in terms of punishment, it's way more lenient than my own school back home.

I'm using it as an example of the fact that Alto cares enough about school to not consiously skip, or unimportant reasons, although he probably does when the Vajra attack. Also Frontier schools are not Japanese schools and comparing them to such could pretty well be a moot point, because we don't know how they are structured.

Even if Ozma didn't know, Michael and Luca are superiors at least in authority. Michael also cautioned Alto to think about Ranka's feelings before sending him back with her. I don't think it would have been right for Alto to scold her in that case, but if you do, that's fine with me.

Only Michael was involved, and Michael is also his best friend and Alto hasn't let neither Michael's higher rank stop Alto from criticizing him. It pretty much helps that Michael made that decision on his own, without consulting his own superiors.

We went from

to

You think he should have called her out on it there and then because that everyone on Frontier is eco-conscious because of the system they have. I think that what he does in that situation is pretty accurate for a 17yo given the context, i.e. that humans are humans even on Frontier. That's what I meant by human nature.

I was using it as an example of the unique situation of their society, I never once questioned, "human nature" as "human nature" is not a clear cut picture. It is in fact just the norm. Humans are in part products of their societies, and if people are taught and raised to think and act a certain way then it will become normal for them to think that way. Also Nanase did say something when she saw Ai-kun and cautioned Ranka about the possible consequences of keeping an unmarked animal in Frontier. I used it as an example of a situation where Ranka should have been chastised, albeit she was already chastised for it form her best friend. So human nature really has nothing with it.

All I'm trying to suggest is that, sometimes, we're a bit too harsh on Ranka.

Sometimes we are and sometimes we are not, at least compared to other characters who have gone through much more than she has, are younger than her, and have made bad decisions that are generally treated worse off than she is.

Tsubasa Tokyo Revelations, which has another Shaoran, was released from late 2007 to 2008. Also, if you'd care to take advice about using English, it would have been less confusing if you'd used Alto's name. A pronoun is usually understood to be referring to the last named person of that gender (in the conversation/thread), which in this case, was Shaoran.

Tsuabasa Syaoran is a different Syaoran from the one in CCS. He was not a Tsundere.

@ippus
That's why I said that if Ranka could find someone who could be patient and wait around, help her to grow up, while being outspoken of heir thoughts (aka: a door mat) then good for her, but she has some really bad habits that could destroy any potential relationship that she enters into.

[DragoonKain3]

So after waiting a few days and reading a few walls of text, it's still clear as mud.

Half the people here say that there's no hard evidence to support that Alto and Ranka knew each other from before middle school.

The other half say that they act as if they've known each other for a long time, so its only reasonable to deduce that they're childhood friends.

Then Swampstorm said that Ranka and Sheryl are childhood friends, and that is actually confirmed. Which if true, and Ranka and Alto are also childhood friends, then chances are, Sheryl and Alto might have known each other from before as well. Which would effective null the (dis?)advantage of having that kind of relationship, since both have it. >_<


So in other words, no one exactly knows? Bah, I guess I'm not done with the Macross F franchise after all; I'll have to see the movie myself once it comes out with subs.

Until then or someone knows it has been confirmed beyond a shadow of a doubt that they're childhood friends (did swampstorm maybe mistype and actually meant Ranka and Alto?), I'm going to assume they're not for the time being.

Not like it's going to matter much in chances anyways, since Kawamori's track record with the trope actually leans on 'bad'. He killed off the childhood friend in the original Macross (Misa's first love), just like he did in F with Michael, after all. It's inconclusive with the other childhood friend in the original Macross (Minmei's cousin). His other works is inconclusive as well, Basquash and Escaflowne, though it can be argued with the latter its actually a loss, but that's an arguement for another thread.

In anycase, for most other works, being childhood friends is a big boon. But like with Rumiko Takahashi's works, I always fear for my ship with Kawamori's. XD

Then again, I'm not setting myself up for a major 'nerdrage' by actually looking forward to a proper ending to Macross F, even with movies. Don't wanna be trolled again after all... >_>

Originally Posted by Westlo

* A childhood friend in a show like Ladies Vs Butlers has a very good chance, A childhood friend in a show like Omamori Himari is going to get slaughtered, hope you at least get 4th place Rinko!

Bad example, since Omamori Himari has Himari knowing Yuuto even earlier than Rinko, thus both are osananajimi. While I haven't crunched the numbers, from the top of my head, in shows where there are more than 1 childhood friend LI, odds are near 100% chance of winning with one of them.

LvsB on the otherhand I personally feel the most pessimistic out of all the shows this season. But again, that's neither here nor there... XD

[karice67]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

But Ranka's school is a private school, and considering that Ranka didn't exactly skip class to go about her career, and her absences would be excused. Not only that but I think that Mihoshi academy is also a private school, its certainly not a normal public school. We are also not sure about the facilities that her previous school had, so again why transfer?

Ranka said that she transferred because she'd started work. If you want to call her a liar, I won't stop you.

"Why transfer"? They don't show us whether Ranka skips school or not. But all the students who I know work as models skip school for their job from time to time. If her original school is purely academic (which implies aiming for further academic studies), then this performing line of work might not have been allowed, especially if she might have to skip classes for it. Furthermore, Mihoshi academy has a performing/performance stream which probably caters to people like her, so it makes sense to transfer.

Originally Posted by wisteria233

But how does this pertain to Ranka?

i.e. her suspension is not as serious as you think it to be, which is why only Ozma (and Michel?) really made a fuss about it.

Originally Posted by wisteria233

I'm using it as an example of the fact that Alto cares enough about school to not consiously skip, or unimportant reasons, although he probably does when the Vajra attack. Also Frontier schools are not Japanese schools and comparing them to such could pretty well be a moot point, because we don't know how they are structured.

Joining the Macross contest was important to Ranka - Alto understood that.
Macross Frontier's writers and target audience are Japanese. If you'd like to think they'd have based it on any other educational system, go ahead.

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Only Michael was involved, and Michael is also his best friend and Alto hasn't let neither Michael's higher rank stop Alto from criticizing him. It pretty much helps that Michael made that decision on his own, without consulting his own superiors.

Luca was also involved, for his own reasons (and Leon called him on it). It doesn't change the fact that it's not particularly good etiquette, no matter the reasons, to criticise someone's actions right after they've saved you. How do you think such a conversation would have gone?

Re: Ai-kun
So Alto simply told her that it wouldn't be his problem if she got caught, showing that he is a product of Frontier's society to a certain extent. My argument is that chastising her further given the context of their meeting is not something that most teenagers would do, nor would it have been beneficial had he done so anyway. Again, how do you think the conversation would have gone?

As for human nature. In Australia, we are brought up with lots of restrictions on bringing food interstate, and being careful when going into the woods because we can carry bacteria with us to uninfected areas. But does everyone follow all those laws to the letter? No. People get complacent. That's why things like eps 19-21 happen.

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Sometimes we are and sometimes we are not, at least compared to other characters who have gone through much more than she has, are younger than her, and have made bad decisions that are generally treated worse off than she is.

If that's the norm for the online community, so be it. It doesn't sit well with me because I deal with 15-18 year olds almost every day, and know how immature they can be.

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Tsuabasa Syaoran is a different Syaoran from the one in CCS. He was not a Tsundere.

I know that. Those of us who brought it up should also have specified !CCS Shaoran from the start, like ippus did.

It doesn't change the fact that your initial comment here was confusing, and potentially needed clearing up. But whether you want to make your arguments/comments more coherent is entirely up to you.

Originally Posted by wisteria233

but she has some really bad habits that could destroy any potential relationship that she enters into.

I agree with ippus. One could say that it would benefit her to find this out, by getting into relationships that will fail because of it.

Anyway, I give up, as I really don't have the time for this. ippus's example of what Ranka needs from the people around her (i.e. Michel's chastisement of her) is good, and you might be able to use some of your points to argue that Alto doesn't really care for Ranka. However, you're not going to convince me that your three examples support the "Alto is bad for Ranka" premise - because it seems to me that you're ignoring context where it suits you - and I'm not going to be able to convince you that your arguments need work.

Originally Posted by raeryne

Thanks so much!now I get it!...sorry, I'm new with all the terms in the anime world such as tsundere...well not new as in never heard before...more like new as in didn't get the right meaning of the terms...(I thought tsundere means being mean to the one you love and being sweet to him/her at particular intervals or circumstances)...well, now I know and I owe it to you karice67...

No worries. I only found out recently myself. And actually, the current definition of the term is indeed what you have noted yourself above, and that's how Alto behaves towards Sheryl for most of the series.

[KaoruLia]

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

Then Swampstorm said that Ranka and Sheryl are childhood friends, and that is actually confirmed. Which if true, and Ranka and Alto are also childhood friends, then chances are, Sheryl and Alto might have known each other from before as well. Which would effective null the (dis?)advantage of having that kind of relationship, since both have it. >_<

Waitaminute, am I missing something here? Where was that stated?

[karice67]

Originally Posted by KaoruLia

Waitaminute, am I missing something here? Where was that stated?

Spoiler for slight movie spoilers:

If I remember correctly, there is a scene in the movie where Sheryl remembers knowing/meeting Ranka as a child. And furthermore, Sheryl knows Aimo, which surprises both Alto and Ranka.

[raeryne]

I like MF...i'm the kind of person who likes the plot of an anime...but I also like the ending to go my way...SELFISH, yes...so even though I want to buy a copy of MF series, if it doesn't end well (in the movies) I have a feeling I won't buy one...

oh if only they stuck to the series' ending for the movies...I'd be 90% confident of the ending!!!(okay, I exaggerate...but you get my point...)

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

1. When she got involved in the Macross contest, and then subsequently suspended from school
2. When she went to Gallia 4
3. About Ai-kun, the first time he saw the creature

1.) He was kinda preoccupied with Sheryl at that moment. Not to mention that her getting involved in the Miss Macross contest wasn't actually that bad for her. He supported that, as did all her other friends.

2.) He did chastise her for that, but what could he do? She was there, she just saved his life.

3.) Yeah, that was definitely a weak point in the series, one of the times when Alto really failed on the job.

Originally Posted by wisteria233

No, but Alto did say that he knew that Ranka liked him and chose to ignore it, it really wouldn't surprise me if he knew that she was being overly reliant on him as well.

But that's just conjecture on your part. There was no indication given in the series that he had noticed that.

Originally Posted by ippus

I feel that Sheryl only really seems more mature because she never gets to do any great leaps in the story, like go searching for answers about her past (since any history of her we get to know about was found by other characters), or get kidnapped by random monsters that are attracted to her. She spends the first half of the show under Grace's watch, and the latter part sick. Her time to do something exciting like sing to giant, war loving Zentradi hordes was stolen from her by illness and Ranka's show, and her moment as the new Songstress of hope was completely swallowed by SharonApple!Ranka (in short it was kind of a joke until Ranka magically cured her;; )

On the rare occasion that she does do something drastically crazy, she chose to randomly enroll in an academy to follow (*coughstalkcough*) a guy she found interesting, in a field she had zero talent in (lmao). She destroyed most of the said academy chasing after her underwear (mature? really?) and hell, she stole a date with Alto by blackmailing his most important charm (in with my boobies you go~) whilst making sure the entire academy knew he was her personal slave XD

In short she didn't really get to do very much, nor did her environment allow her to flaunt her very VERY apparent immaturity, but when she finally did it's obvious that...Sheryl-sama is one big whacko ]D.

What made her immaturity and crazy ass antics work, is that Alto reciprocated her interest. I know for a fact that I wouldn't have liked the AruSheri shipping as much (or at all, even if I would still have been an immense Sheriru-sama fan and hated Alto with a passion) if Alto didn't react to her. If he paid attention to Ranka and if he went to visit her by choice rather than be called or dragged along by other people, Sheryl would have been the pest fringe Ranka-fans keep accusing her of being.

Episode 8 aside, which was very obviously over the top with *everybody*, I have yet to see those "crazy antics" you are attributing to Sheryl.

And as for her maturity, she a.) chose to DIE for the people of Frontier and b.) to try to spare Alto the pain of seeing her die, which is why she tried to keep her illness secret from him. Not to forget her singing for the people in the shelter, telling Alto and the others to go and end the threat of the Vajra, while she was in definite danger, taking care of Nanase, etc, etc, etc. And etc..

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by karice67

Ranka said that she transferred because she'd started work. If you want to call her a liar, I won't stop you.

"Why transfer"? They don't show us whether Ranka skips school or not. But all the students who I know work as models skip school for their job from time to time. If her original school is purely academic (which implies aiming for further academic studies), then this performing line of work might not have been allowed, especially if she might have to skip classes for it. Furthermore, Mihoshi academy has a performing/performance stream which probably caters to people like her, so it makes sense to transfer.


i.e. her suspension is not as serious as you think it to be, which is why only Ozma (and Michel?) really made a fuss about it.

When has Ranka ever been shown to make use of facilities in Mihoshi Academy?

and for the record Alto did treat Ranka being suspended as a big thing, and was worried about that. Problem is he never brought it up with her. In fact Nanase also made about it as well.

My point is though they weren't aware of the consequences of Ranka making that decision.

Joining the Macross contest was important to Ranka - Alto understood that.
Macross Frontier's writers and target audience are Japanese. If you'd like to think they'd have based it on any other educational system, go ahead.

But he never skipped school to be there, that's the problem. Also going the distance to get what you want is something that people of most countries would understand, not just Japanese people. The problem is that Ranka never put much thought into it once Alto said "Go for it".

Luca was also involved, for his own reasons (and Leon called him on it). It doesn't change the fact that it's not particularly good etiquette, no matter the reasons, to criticise someone's actions right after they've saved you. How do you think such a conversation would have gone?

Since when has Alto bothered with etiquette, with his close friends? Also it could have lead to her death so another side to this point.

Re: Ai-kun
So Alto simply told her that it wouldn't be his problem if she got caught, showing that he is a product of Frontier's society to a certain extent. My argument is that chastising her further given the context of their meeting is not something that most teenagers would do, nor would it have been beneficial had he done so anyway. Again, how do you think the conversation would have gone?

If she's his friend then it should be his problem gets caught, by the authorities.
Maybe he could have said "Oh Ranks, maybe you should report that animal to the proper authorities, I don't think its an identified lifeform." Very casually, also the reason for episode when he saw Ai-kun for the first time, was Ranka asking Alto for advice, so he could have just as easily said something.

As for human nature. In Australia, we are brought up with lots of restrictions on bringing food interstate, and being careful when going into the woods because we can carry bacteria with us to uninfected areas. But does everyone follow all those laws to the letter? No. People get complacent. That's why things like eps 19-21 happen.

But if someone is taught, or trained not to do something like that, especially in a closed environment where an unidentified life form could wipe their entire civilization like the Vajra almost did, and the fact that Nanase did tell Ranka to report Ai-kun. Its not a case of unconsciously forgetting to wash oneself, its a case of consciously picking up a wild animal and then bringing it home as a pet.

If that's the norm for the online community, so be it. It doesn't sit well with me because I deal with 15-18 year olds almost every day, and know how immature they can be.

Shinji Ikari, Asuka Langley Souyrou, Kira Yamato, Lynn Minmei, Shinn Asuka, etc. know those names? They're characters who get worse bashing than Ranka.

I know that. Those of us who brought it up should also have specified !CCS Shaoran from the start, like ippus did.

It doesn't change the fact that your initial comment here was confusing, and potentially needed clearing up. But whether you want to make your arguments/comments more coherent is entirely up to you.

Not everyone did, and the context of the conversation should have made it obvious who was the subject.

Or maybe you should ask me what I mean before jumping to conclusions.

I agree with ippus. One could say that it would benefit her to find this out, by getting into relationships that will fail because of it.

But what if she doesn't find this out through her relationships? After all she learned nothing from pursuing Alto, and its a personality problem that affects how she treats other people. And I did say that...

Originally Posted by wisteria233

While I can concede and agree that if Ranka finds the right man who will help to grow she will be better off than she was before.

Did you read my post.

Anyway, I give up, as I really don't have the time for this. ippus's example of what Ranka needs from the people around her (i.e. Michel's chastisement of her) is good, and you might be able to use some of your points to argue that Alto doesn't really care for Ranka. However, you're not going to convince me that your three examples support the "Alto is bad for Ranka" premise - because it seems to me that you're ignoring context where it suits you - and I'm not going to be able to convince you that your arguments need work.

Originally Posted by wisteria233

I already said that Ranka needed to grow up before she gets into a relationship with anybody. Because right now, it is unfair to expect anyone to put up with her maturity or wait for her to realize that she needs to grow up, but its also not fair for her to be with someone who will stifle that growth.

Summary Ranka shouldn't be with anyone who will stifle or stop her from growing aka Alto, and Brera. At the same time it would be unfair to expect for another person to have to deal with her immature antics.
further streamlined

Alto is bad for Ranka because he's just another doormat brother figure, who doesn't treat her like an adult, or take her as seriously as he possibly should. She needs someone who can be blunt with her, and she in turn needs to be mature enough to think about what they say.

Also when have I ever taken scenes out of context over the course of this conversation?

@magnus I know its a conjecture, but then again Alto did know all about Ranka's crush on him despite acting like he didn't, who knows what else he knows.