[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Renall]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Well, it almost certainly includes Kanontrice, but if you look at the section immediately before that, they're clearly talking about Shkanon. There's this whole thing about "Why is it wrong for furniture to fall in love?" "Don't you think it's wrong for a married man to fall in love with another woman?" "Of course." "There you go. Neither of the two duelists makes up a full person." "???"
And there's no way (besides Kinzo=Kanon) for Kanon to be anywhere except the cousins' room, unless he's one of the people in the neighboring room.

No, you don't have to interpret this as Shkanon. If Shkanon were the only way to read this scene, no one would disagree with it, but it isn't. There's also the whole... you know... magic scene thing? And Kanon being killed and then suddenly being alive again.

Also Kanon = Kinzo is not the only way for Kanon to escape the location check, just as long as he doesn't count as "all other people."

By the way, if you do want to try and use Kanontrice here, you must accept that Kanon loves Battler with all his heart...

Ain't nothin' wrong with that.

Also Kanon could be a girl. Heck, in your theory, Kanon is a girl.

Originally Posted by Ssol

In that scene we were shown flashes of the closed rooms that original Beatrice used from the first four games.

I think it's clear that Beato needed to understand all the closed rooms from the previous games to reach the answer.

But Shkanon isn't necessary to solve any of those closed rooms.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

That's not what I meant. I mean they realized that Natsuhi wouldn't realize something that simple was a trick.

Sure, that means she's gullible and not intelligent. That doesn't prove how brave she is, nor how noble. How would you even know Natsuhi would or wouldn't be willing to risk her life and suspicion to save Hideyoshi's life? She didn't, but she thought about it seriously.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

You have to look through the section just before Beato figures everything out. She's really slow, and needs a lot of prodding before she finally figures out what the answer is. And during her "revelation", there's this long talk that her "mother" has to her (mother is probably former Beatrice), saying that she has now inherited her love for Battler. This makes sense for Shkanontrice, but not at all for Kanon=Kinzo. So you'd have to assume that Beato was lead by the hand by someone trying to suggest Shkanon to her, but then suddenly realized that Kanon was Kinzo.

Do we know that Dlanor didn't catch the faked deaths from EP5? I think she keeps a lot of things hidden from us.

"Mother" was pretty obviously whichever human created Beatrice six years ago, I thought.

Regarding the revelation, I'm not saying she thought about the love trial and suddenly realized "Oh, Kanon's real name is Kinzo." I agree that something like that wouldn't make sense. But she could have realized something about Kanon and Shannon's family situation, such as that they were adopted by Kinzo, and the name thing could be derived indirectly from that.

Please remember that when Zepar and Furfur talk about "less than a full person's love", they're including concepts like a man in love with two women and other things like that. It's not necessarily about personalities.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Renall

Also Kanon = Kinzo is not the only way for Kanon to escape the location check, just as long as he doesn't count as "all other people."Ain't nothin' wrong with that.

And how could Kanon escape the location check? You need to give an actual theory for it if you want to explain anything.

Originally Posted by Renall

No, you don't have to interpret this as Shkanon. If Shkanon were the only way to read this scene, no one would disagree with it, but it isn't. There's also the whole... you know... magic scene thing? And Kanon being killed and then suddenly being alive again.

No, seriously, go back and read it again. The whole section is completely hinting towards Shkanon. The only possible way that Shkanon isn't true is if the person writing this section either guessed totally wrong or was a troll, and for both of those, you need to explain how Beato could have reached the correct answer despite the storyteller being wrong/lying.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

And how could Kanon escape the location check? You need to give an actual theory for it if you want to explain anything.

His name could be something else that would be easier for Beato to realize (as opposed to making the leap to Kinzo). Ssol's theory about the game resuming just long enough for him to escape or something. There are plenty of these. Don't be disingenous.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

And how could Kanon escape the location check? You need to give an actual theory for it if you want to explain anything.

I posted a link to a theory Ssol had in the epsiode 6 thread couple of pages ago using the actual Japanese that gets around the location check without name games.

Also if not Kinzo his real name could be Rosa or Maria if he's a girl just saying...

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Judoh

I posted a link to a theory Ssol had in the epsiode 6 thread couple of pages ago using the actual Japanese that gets around the location check without name games.

Also if not Kinzo his real name could be Rosa or Maria if he's a girl just saying...

He's finished. Neither Rosa nor Maria can save him. Note that these don't include the "Ushiromiya." Unless Dlanor is allowed to pick which Maria she means.

Certainly, the message bottles indicate the possibility of a second "Ushiromiya Maria." And Kanon was depicted as being in the room where Rosa and Maria were... But still.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Renall

But Shkanon isn't necessary to solve any of those closed rooms.

Think about the scene where Battler learned the answer as well. We were shown all the closed rooms from the previous games as well.

My opinion is that they reached the answer by understanding something about how the game itself was presented as a mystery that was solvable by a detective or one who seeks the truth.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Ssol

Think about the scene where Battler learned the answer as well. We were shown all the closed rooms from the previous games as well.

My opinion is that they reached the answer by understanding something about how the game itself was presented as a mystery that was solvable by a detective or one who seeks the truth.

I know, I'm just making a point. They don't even have to be solvable as a unified whole. Like you said, it could just be recognizing something about the construction of the mysteries. Battler and Beato might not have even found the "answers" as such, even discovering the "answer." Granted, apparently Beato remembered right quick.

[chronotrig]

"Mother" was pretty obviously whichever human created Beatrice six years ago, I thought.

Here's the section about "mother" (sorry for the rough translation):

Spoiler for size:

――Beatrice.

Listen.

I am giving you my love for Ushiromiya Battler.
You must become the kind of woman Battler likes.
Take the golden hair he likes.
Take the blue eyes he likes.
Take this personality that matches his.
And then, ......you must love him in my place.
And then, if possible, you must be loved by him.

I......can no longer love him.
Please, take my feelings that went unfulfilled, ......my feelings that I couldn't hold back, ......and make my wish come true.

From this day forward, you are no longer the Rokkenjima ghost that lives only to play pranks.
From this day forward, you will become the master of this island and wait for the day that he comes to fulfill his promise.
From this day forward, you will do this in my place.
So, from this day forward, you will no longer be me.
Please forgive me for pushing all of my worries onto you, ...while I alone try to find happiness.
From this day forward, you have the right to hate everything.
From this day forward, you are the Golden Witch, Beatrice.

And, one day...
You will destroy everything, revive everything.
......You will bring blessings to all lovers.
When that happens...
......I pray that you and I......will both succeed in finding happiness.
From this day forward, you will no longer be me.
From this day forward, I will no longer be you.
The two of use will split apart a single soul and share it.
And though, of course, neither of us will possess a complete soul...
I'm sure our dreams will be more numerous than those of humans.
Let us be blessed......

My dear...Beatrice...
No one will be able to see your form.
However, I alone can see you.
And if you are loved by many people...
I'm sure that everyone will be able to see you someday.


With love, they will be able to see us......

[Renall]

Logically, doesn't Beatrice have to be created before Kanon in Shkanon? If Beatrice already exists, what's Kanon even for?

EDIT: Chronologically, this is the only construction that works:

Pre-1980: Shannon exists (created from Sayo, so to speak).
1980: Beatrice is created.
1983: Kanon first begins to appear.

The text supports this; the speaker splits a soul with Beatrice first. The talk about sharing a soul between three only comes up after that chronologically. Why bother? You already have Beatrice.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Renall

He's finished. Neither Rosa nor Maria can save him. Note that these don't include the "Ushiromiya." Unless Dlanor is allowed to pick which Maria she means.

Certainly, the message bottles indicate the possibility of a second "Ushiromiya Maria." And Kanon was depicted as being in the room where Rosa and Maria were... But still.

Well heck what's wrong with Kanon's name really being Beatrice instead of a title called Beatrice? Certainly it would explain the whole scene in episode 1 where Kumasawa, Maria, and all them act like Beatrice is in the room with them and Battler thinks she might be right behind him or something.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Renall

Logically, doesn't Beatrice have to be created before Kanon in Shkanon? If Beatrice already exists, what's Kanon even for?

Well, turn it around. This sort of proves that Kanontrice doesn't make sense. Kanon never saw Battler until the final family conference, so it's hard to imagine how he could fall in love with Battler. So, EP6 more or less proves that Kanon is Beatrice, but only Shannon was working at the mansion when Battler left. It's looking hard to find a way around Shkanontrice.

Some people have suggested that Kanon represents Kinzo's will. If the Kinzo scenes in EP1 and 2 are flashbacks, then we know that Kinzo decided to write a will, a record of everything he did, back when he still had some time left. It's possible that this was 3 years ago, the time Kanon was created.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Well heck what's wrong with Kanon's name really being Beatrice instead of a title called Beatrice? Certainly it would explain the whole scene in episode 1 where Kumasawa Maria and all them act like Beatrice is in the room and Battler thinks she might be right behind him or something.

Beatrice would not be excluded from the location check. It is never claimed that "Beatrice" is anywhere, therefore she's "all other people." Unless you're going to argue Kanon was Erika, but then you're screwed when you get to the logic error room, because there's three bodies.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Well, turn it around. This sort of proves that Kanontrice doesn't make sense. Kanon never saw Battler until the final family conference, so it's hard to imagine how he could fall in love with Battler. So, EP6 more or less proves that Kanon is Beatrice, but only Shannon was working at the mansion when Battler left. It's looking hard to find a way around Shkanontrice.

Not really. Just because "Kanon" didn't exist doesn't mean Battler never met him (her?). I think Shannontrice makes more sense, but Shkanon is a red herring (or the death of the entire story).

Some people have suggested that Kanon represents Kinzo's will. If the Kinzo scenes in EP1 and 2 are flashbacks, then we know that Kinzo decided to write a will, a record of everything he did, back when he still had some time left. It's possible that this was 3 years ago, the time Kanon was created.

In that case, even if Kanon were imaginary, why would he have to be represented by Shannon at all? And what of the person Battler actually meets? If he's a metaphor for Kinzo's will, why does someone have to pretend to actually be him?

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Renall

Not really. Just because "Kanon" didn't exist doesn't mean Battler never met him (her?). I think Shannontrice makes more sense, but Shkanon is a red herring (or the death of the entire story).

But EP6 directly hints towards Kanontrice, especially if you look at the code:

Spoiler for size:

;mbg garden_1bN,0
;mldg l,KAN_DefA2,80

「あともう一個。」@ (And one more thing)
;＜嘉音 (Kanon)

;mldg r,BEA_OdorokiB4,80
「……な、何です…？」@ (What's that?)
;＜ベアト (Beato)

;mldg l,KAN_FumanA2,80

「それ、密室の魔女の喋り方には、相応しくないな。」\ (That's no way for the witch of closed rooms to talk)
;＜嘉音 (Kanon)

;mldg r,BEA_NayamuB1,80
「やっぱり、私は……、」@ (I see, so I [watashi] have to be...)
;＜ベアト (Beato)

;mldg l,KAN_WaraiA1,80

se1v 2,100
E_MA

「妾でなくっちゃ。」\ (me [warawa])
;＜嘉音 (Kanon)
;mldg r,BEA_AkuwaraiB1,8

I swear, Ryuukishi does this to torment me... ^^
The main point here is the pronoun switch, but Kanon is apparently the one who says it.

But there's more of this going on with Kanon's tachi-e earlier.

[Renall]

What about Doubletrice? I think /jp/ uses that more to describe Shannon and Jessica being Beatrice, but could Kanon and Shannon be Beatrice independently, but differently? Ep6 does provide us two Beatrices. One was created to love Battler, one was the witch legend. Who says these aren't actually two Beatrices? Kanontrice would exist, yet his(her?) Beatrice wouldn't logically be the one who loves Battler since obviously he(she?) wasn't there.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Renall

What about Doubletrice? I think /jp/ uses that more to describe Shannon and Jessica being Beatrice, but could Kanon and Shannon be Beatrice independently, but differently? Ep6 does provide us two Beatrices. One was created to love Battler, one was the witch legend. Who says these aren't actually two Beatrices? Kanontrice would exist, yet his(her?) Beatrice wouldn't logically be the one who loves Battler since obviously he(she?) wasn't there.

Well, there's also the Beatrice for Kinzo. Remember the scene where Kanon sees Beatrice floating around Kinzo and talking about love. I think that's the second Beatrice we see in EP4 (the first one, Battler's Beatrice, has just given up since Battler denied magic AND forgot about his promise).

[Renall]

Still, if Kanon and Shannon are fighting over Beatrice, that colors their relationship in a different light, does it not? They would both be aware of Beatrice, inasmuch as some sort of Beatrice existed and mattered to Kinzo. They could therefore create their own "Beatrices."

There's a lot to suggest there is more than one Beatrice (not counting Meta-Beatrice, Magic Scene Beatrice, Eva-Beatrice, etc.). Different letters, different MOs, I don't think it's thematically improbable.

But of course if Shkanon is true, I sincerely doubt that would happen.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Well, there's also the Beatrice for Kinzo. Remember the scene where Kanon sees Beatrice floating around Kinzo and talking about love. I think that's the second Beatrice we see in EP4 (the first one, Battler's Beatrice, has just given up since Battler denied magic AND forgot about his promise).

Kanon talks about the legend with Battler more than Shannon does in episode 1. Shannon doesn't really get a chance to and in other episodes she still doesn't. He could just be the legend's keeper.

[luckyssol]

@Chronotrig: Is that the only time Kanon used 妾 instead of 僕? Well, we know that's what Beatrice uses.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Kanon talks about the legend with Battler more than Shannon does in episode 1. Shannon doesn't really get a chance to and in other episodes she still doesn't. He could just be the legend's keeper.

Funny, Author Theory helps this... sorta, anyway.

Shannon's Beatrice loved Battler in her stead. She may have also been the one urging people to solve the epitaph... maybe even knowing what it was for, and hoping to save everyone. Dress-Beato.

Kanon's Beatrice is a prankster and possibly more sinister. She sees the epitaph differently, and enjoys delightful closed rooms. And tricks. And maybe murder. Suit-Beato.

Shannon was the one Battler sinned against (maybe). Kanon is the one trying to make Battler remember.

And Meta-Beatrice is a fusion of both.