Dating

[Targus]

Goodness, tl;dr!!!

Don, just man the fuck up. You got a degree, you're intelligent. You're underestimating the value of what you did. Girls dig a guy who gets an education, as worthless as it looks to you, because you have a better chance of providing chicks something guys with only a high school diploma cannot: SECURITY. You're already more marriageable than those kinda guys.

Stop giving yourself excuses to explain why you suck. That's why you suck. Stop making excuses for yourself and you'll be made of Platinum.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by Targus

Goodness, tl;dr!!!

Don, just man the fuck up. You got a degree, you're intelligent. You're underestimating the value of what you did. Girls dig a guy who gets an education, as worthless as it looks to you, because you have a better chance of providing chicks something guys with only a high school diploma cannot: SECURITY. You're already more marriageable than those kinda guys.

Stop giving yourself excuses to explain why you suck. That's why you suck. Stop making excuses for yourself and you'll be made of Platinum.

Well, I'm not letting it all stop me from trying to get a good job.

I can only imagine how much worse I'd be off if I had chosen to study Arts...

The subject of University tends to set me off, so I can quickly end out going into tl;dr territory on it. 30 years from now, people will be looking back and think we were mad to place so much importance on a university education. Alternative education is the future. That's an argument for this thread though, I'd be happy to discuss there, if anyone is interested. This is not the place for it.

[Byakou]

Originally Posted by Targus

Goodness, tl;dr!!!

Don, just man the fuck up. You got a degree, you're intelligent. You're underestimating the value of what you did. Girls dig a guy who gets an education, as worthless as it looks to you, because you have a better chance of providing chicks something guys with only a high school diploma cannot: SECURITY. You're already more marriageable than those kinda guys.

Stop giving yourself excuses to explain why you suck. That's why you suck. Stop making excuses for yourself and you'll be made of Platinum.

I don't think having higher education gets you more girls, except maybe girls that are after your money. It's all about appearance, attitude, charisma, etc. Girls will always go after the cool bum than the chubby nerdy dude with a degree.

[Targus]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

Well, I'm not letting it all stop me from trying to get a good job.

I can only imagine how much worse I'd be off if I had chosen to study Arts...

The subject of University tends to set me off, so I can quickly end out going into tl;dr territory on it. 30 years from now, people will be looking back and think we were mad to place so much importance on a university education. Alternative education is the future. That's an argument for this thread though, I'd be happy to discuss there, if anyone is interested. This is not the place for it.

Originally Posted by Byakou

I don't think having higher education gets you more girls, except maybe girls that are after your money. It's all about appearance, attitude, charisma, etc. Girls will always go after the cool bum than the chubby nerdy dude with a degree.

You both missed my point. You have an education, it's easier to get a job than a guy who only has a high school diploma, and that looks better on you from a social point of view. And what if the cool dude doesn't have a job? She'd go out with him just because he looks cool? Good luck to them if they wanna have a long term relationship.



My point is that it's easier for you to be with someone if you have something to back you up like an education. As you say, doesn't matter if it's a university degree or whatever. Just be yourself, don't let things like that get to you, and you'll be fine.

NOTE: I'm aware there are people who don't have a degree and still get to be with someone who to them is the greatest thing in the world. If THEY can do it, why can't you who has an education? That's what I'm telling you.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by Targus

NOTE: I'm aware there are people who don't have a degree and still get to be with someone who to them is the greatest thing in the world. If THEY can do it, why can't you who has an education? That's what I'm telling you.

I don't think education is an obstacle to getting a good relationship. But I don't think it really improves your chances either. What do you think girls will find cooler:

1. "I 'm studying Mechanical Engineering. Do you like Differential Calculus?"
2. "I'm in a band."

I'd say I'll have more security in the (somewhat distant) future, but that's small solace when you're stuck in your room 7 days a week doing assignments with only your calculator for company, for 4 years . 4 years is a really long time.

And security is not a certain thing, if the last 5 years have taught me anything, nothing is certain. I have an uncle who apprenticed to become a compositor (involved in printing), a highly skilled and respected profession. Then inkjet printers were invented. He hasn't had a steady job for 15 years. Could he have predicted that home computers and printing would become as ubiquitous as it is today? The world is not as certain as people think. Something could easily occur 15 years from now that renders my skill set entirely obsolete (though I doubt it in the case of Mech Eng).

[Gamer_2k4]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

I don't think education is an obstacle to getting a good relationship. But I don't think it really improves your chances either. What do you think girls will find cooler:

1. "I 'm studying Mechanical Engineering. Do you like Differential Calculus?"
2. "I'm in a band."

Would you rather be in a relationship with a girl who thinks being in a band is the pinnacle of achievement, or with one who's impressed by someone with an education?

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4

Would you rather be in a relationship with a girl who thinks being in a band is the pinnacle of achievement, or with one who's impressed by someone with an education?

Neither. I'd prefer to be with a girl who respects the content of your character, regardless of what work you do, or the letters (or lack thereof) after your name.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

For me there is very little of that. I never gelled with the prevailing culture at my university (which was highly alcohol focused...), and made no lasting friends, except during my time on exchange (which is the only thing I have fond memories of). And on graduation I felt no pride, as my performance had been poor, and the rest of my family were all "high achievers", every single one had graduated with first class honours, adored university (and my father is a professor), while I'm the black sheep who hated the entire process and generally underachieved. My mother will love me regardless, but I knew she was disappointed, not to mention my father.

Very similar story to mine. The difference is that I transferred out of engineering when I was over halfway done with it (to try and save my grades, and change fields), and I don't view college as a low point in my life.

People like us are screwed in the self-esteem department from day one. Your parents have achieved so much, so the bar is already set very high. Even if you do better than your peers, you're always being measured against something much greater. In my case, at best I could only ever equal my parents; I don't think I could realistically better them. It didn't help that I don't have a knack for exams. As a result, no matter what you do, you're never measuring up.

Even if you can get away from worrying about your parents, programs of study generally put you among similar people. That also works against you. For example, look at me: I'm in medical school. Does that sound impressive to you? I can't tell you how many days I feel like the world's biggest idiot, particularly on those days when my exam scores are below the class average. I don't think particularly highly of myself, yet many people claim that doctors are the "best and the brightest" that society has to offer. Me, the best and the brightest? My peers - every single one - the best and the brightest? Really?

The thing is, what I'm doing when I view myself - and what I suspect you're doing, too - is I'm comparing myself purely to those who are at my playing field or higher. When I look at what I've done, I see the failures and the never-happened's, instead of recognizing the achievements. I can't see what my true accomplishments are, partly because I'm so focused on my negatives, and partly because they're obscured by what all of my peers are doing.

In my case, I've already achieved more than some people will in their lifetimes. I don't say that to be arrogant, but to recognize that it's true, and to give myself credit for it. I still aspire to do much more, and in the grand scheme of things I hope to look back on these days and feel that it was barely the first step. Yet just because I'm looking forward and have much larger goals doesn't mean that what I've done up until now was pointless.

I sympathize with your sentiments about college, in that college work is just more book work that doesn't really make a mark on the world. While there may be hundreds of thousands of engineering graduates each year, it doesn't diminish what you've done. Whether you want to chalk it up to perseverance, intelligence, or some other factor, not everyone could have done what you did. I couldn't. Sure, life is really beginning for you now, but everything that you've done up until this point still counts for something.

I suspect that as you get away from your class group and interact with more people from different walks of life and of different circumstances (people outside of engineering and other areas requiring good amounts of schooling), you'll come to understand and really appreciate that.

[Gamer_2k4]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

Neither. I'd prefer to be with a girl who respects the content of your character, regardless of what work you do, or the letters (or lack thereof) after your name.

Of course. I was simply asking you to reconsider the two options you presented.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

People like us are screwed in the self-esteem department from day one. Your parents have achieved so much, so the bar is already set very high. Even if you do better than your peers, you're always being measured against something much greater. In my case, at best I could only ever equal my parents; I don't think I could realistically better them. It didn't help that I don't have a knack for exams. As a result, no matter what you do, you're never measuring up.

Yeah. For me there's also an aspect of "younger sibling syndrome", my older sister was always far more diligent then I am. On the flip side, her experiences somewhat colour mine, while she won't admit it, I think her schooling was a waste of time, she studied genetics, and graduated top of her class. Now she's working in graphic design (or at least trying to...), and as I see it, professionally she's no better off then if she had never gone to college at all. Obviously, there's more to college then professional qualifications, but I think the "personal growth" aspects of university happen inside or outside college.

The thing is, what I'm doing when I view myself - and what I suspect you're doing, too - is I'm comparing myself purely to those who are at my playing field or higher. When I look at what I've done, I see the failures and the never-happened's, instead of recognizing the achievements. I can't see what my true accomplishments are, partly because I'm so focused on my negatives, and partly because they're obscured by what all of my peers are doing.

I think another aspect is that, living in a meritocratic society, failure is a lot harder to cope with. We have a view (at least in the western world) that a person's success and failures are due to their own qualities. If you do well, you're a good quality person, if you fail, you're bad quality. So when you succeed, it of course feels good, because you feel like "I'm a great person!", but when you fail it feels awful, because not only do you have to cope with the failure, but you also feel worthless as a human being.

In older time, people tended to think things were "fated", which I think cushions you from life's failures, while helping you to take a more modest attitude towards success. When you fail, it's not your fault, and when you succeed, it was not just down to you. Of course, I don't think either is completely true, failure and success comes from a mix of factors you have greater or lesser degrees of control over.

I sympathize with your sentiments about college, in that college work is just more book work that doesn't really make a mark on the world. While there may be hundreds of thousands of engineering graduates each year, it doesn't diminish what you've done. Whether you want to chalk it up to perseverance, intelligence, or some other factor, not everyone could have done what you did. I couldn't. Sure, life is really beginning for you now, but everything that you've done up until this point still counts for something.

My views on achievement may be a bit idiosyncratic, but for me, achievement is a very specific thing, though something that I think all people can achieve. For me achievement is:
1. A feat of skill, ability or intelligence
2. Requires some degree of individual initiative
3. Has value outside of purely social concerns

For me University education (at least for engineering) in itself is not an achievement because while it does require skill and intelligence, it does not require individual initiative (you can complete it without ever needing to think critically or for the most part creatively), and finally it's value is almost purely social, in that it's largely entirely an effort to gain a credential. Now that credential is supposed to mean something (IE you are supposed to have such and such knowledge), and gaining that knowledge is an achievement. So I do feel it is something of an achievement that I know all about thermodynamics, heat transfer, differential calculus etc. But I don't feel the fact I have a degree is any particular kind of achievement, if I had gained that knowledge entirely through self study I'd have the same level of achievement. A University degree is supposed to certify that you know all these things, but in reality it doesn't, it certifies that you sat in 4 years of classes, and you likely know all these things. I think the fact that so many careers require a degree, when that knowledge can be attained without ever setting foot in a university, is not right. I think it should be possible to gain all these qualifications through self study, without ever stepping inside the ivory tower. Fortunately, I think the world is moving in this direction. It's only a matter of time before universities lose their monopoly on knowledge, and recognizing talent.

As I see it, University is only a way of proving you're intelligent and skilled. Achievement requires you to use your intelligence and skills. It is only a beginning (among many, no more valid then most of the rest), not an end in and of itself.

I suspect that as you get away from your class group and interact with more people from different walks of life and of different circumstances (people outside of engineering and other areas requiring good amounts of schooling), you'll come to understand and really appreciate that.

Yes, I'll probably realise I'm smarter then I think, or so my mother has spared no effort in reminding me.

Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4

Of course. I was simply asking you to reconsider the two options you presented.

I never said it was good that playing in a band was more valued then knowing thermodynamics... It's just how things are!

[Tigress]

As a woman, I can pick on your comparison just a little bit. Band guy vs. guy with intelligence?

There are different types of women out there and I know ones who enjoy smoking a few splifs and talking about music and pointless shite and these would so go for the musicians. I am not saying these girls aren't intelligent since they had to do well to get this far in college but they are who they are. I go drinking and partying with them but it doesn't mean I do what they do. The ones with a bit of a brain who like intelligent conversation are more likely to be attracted to your kind of personality, negativity aside of course. ^.^ I am only taking this from my own view of the world and I think you need to give the opposite sex a little more credit than that. We are all different with varying ideals.

I think that we have to trudge through the slurry in wellies to find what we want, metaphorically speaking. The dating game is all about finding the person you are going to spend the rest of your life with. The next person could be her, you could date several people before finding her, it could take months or a few years but I like to believe that there is someone there for each of us.

As for myself. It is early days with my new relationship, so I am not running away with it. I am not even calling him my boyfriend yet. We want to take a few weeks to get used to the idea ourselves before making it official by telling other friends. Nothing has changed really in how we talk to each other and I think that is a good sign. I would rather we were friends first and lovers only second to that. I hope this is a realistic approach and I am not expecting too much. ^.^

[Knightrunner]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

Yeah. For me there's also an aspect of "younger sibling syndrome", my older sister was always far more diligent then I am. On the flip side, her experiences somewhat colour mine, while she won't admit it, I think her schooling was a waste of time, she studied genetics, and graduated top of her class. Now she's working in graphic design (or at least trying to...), and as I see it, professionally she's no better off then if she had never gone to college at all.

I'm planning to concentrate in genetics. I guess I should keep my mouth shut for a while until I find an actual job that involves my specialty. Luckily, I plan to attend grad school. I'm hoping to meet a lot of potentials there

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

Obviously, there's more to college then professional qualifications, but I think the "personal growth" aspects of university happen inside or outside college.
I think another aspect is that, living in a meritocratic society, failure is a lot harder to cope with. We have a view (at least in the western world) that a person's success and failures are due to their own qualities. If you do well, you're a good quality person, if you fail, you're bad quality. So when you succeed, it of course feels good, because you feel like "I'm a great person!", but when you fail it feels awful, because not only do you have to cope with the failure, but you also feel worthless as a human being.

When I decided to opt out of my initial college program and change majors I felt like a failure. Lots of outside pressures even reinforces that I really failed and should be frowned upon. I know some people lost respect for me even my own relatives. When you hear people actually call you "wishy washy" and other not so nice terms when your down it's definately hard to look forward. Even to this day it still bothers me, so I can't wait to graduate. The price for being known and starting off as a strong character in other people's eyes sure can give a good lashing.

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

In older time, people tended to think things were "fated", which I think cushions you from life's failures, while helping you to take a more modest attitude towards success. When you fail, it's not your fault, and when you succeed, it was not just down to you. Of course, I don't think either is completely true, failure and success comes from a mix of factors you have greater or lesser degrees of control over.

Shhhh. If my mind realize it isn't fate then I don't know if I can live my modest life right now Sometimes I wonder why I'm not fated to have dates with certain people

Originally Posted by Tigress

As a woman, I can pick on your comparison just a little bit. Band guy vs. guy with intelligence?

There are different types of women out there and I know ones who enjoy smoking a few splifs and talking about music and pointless shite and these would so go for the musicians. I am not saying these girls aren't intelligent since they had to do well to get this far in college but they are who they are. I go drinking and partying with them but it doesn't mean I do what they do. The ones with a bit of a brain who like intelligent conversation are more likely to be attracted to your kind of personality, negativity aside of course. ^.^ I am only taking this from my own view of the world and I think you need to give the opposite sex a little more credit than that. We are all different with varying ideals.

lol Women to this day still puzzle me. I'll never figure them out. Taste is so variable in today's world.

Originally Posted by Tigress

As for myself. It is early days with my new relationship, so I am not running away with it. I am not even calling him my boyfriend yet. We want to take a few weeks to get used to the idea ourselves before making it official by telling other friends. Nothing has changed really in how we talk to each other and I think that is a good sign. I would rather we were friends first and lovers only second to that. I hope this is a realistic approach and I am not expecting too much. ^.^

I like this approach. I'll keep this in mind towards the future.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

For me University education (at least for engineering) in itself is not an achievement because while it does require skill and intelligence, it does not require individual initiative (you can complete it without ever needing to think critically or for the most part creatively), and finally it's value is almost purely social, in that it's largely entirely an effort to gain a credential. Now that credential is supposed to mean something (IE you are supposed to have such and such knowledge), and gaining that knowledge is an achievement. So I do feel it is something of an achievement that I know all about thermodynamics, heat transfer, differential calculus etc. But I don't feel the fact I have a degree is any particular kind of achievement, if I had gained that knowledge entirely through self study I'd have the same level of achievement. A University degree is supposed to certify that you know all these things, but in reality it doesn't, it certifies that you sat in 4 years of classes, and you likely know all these things. I think the fact that so many careers require a degree, when that knowledge can be attained without ever setting foot in a university, is not right. I think it should be possible to gain all these qualifications through self study, without ever stepping inside the ivory tower. Fortunately, I think the world is moving in this direction. It's only a matter of time before universities lose their monopoly on knowledge, and recognizing talent.

As I see it, University is only a way of proving you're intelligent and skilled. Achievement requires you to use your intelligence and skills. It is only a beginning (among many, no more valid then most of the rest), not an end in and of itself.

One of my engineering professors said something to our class that I thought was kind of shocking (and depressing, at the time). He said that we were here to learn, but what we were being taught ultimately was not that important. After we had graduated and were hired for a job, we would learn what we needed to know to do the job, on the job. The knowledge we learned in class would give us familiarity, but it would not be the case that we would be ready for any job once we graduated.

So then, what were we spending time in all of those classes for? "To learn how to learn."

It sounds silly, because from age five or so you're already in school, moving along a standardized learning curriculum. Yet there's some truth in what my professor said, I think. I didn't begin to take full advantage of the resources available to me until near the end of college; I also don't feel that I really learned how to learn and think critically until graduate school. But everything builds off of itself. While it's possible that it really wasn't anything worthwhile, perhaps a few years from now you'll be able to look back and recognize the value of your time spent in college.

Originally Posted by Tigress

The dating game is all about finding the person you are going to spend the rest of your life with.

That assumes people are looking to find one person to spend the rest of their life with

[Tigress]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

That assumes people are looking to find one person to spend the rest of their life with

Well I'm a hopeless romantic ^.^

[ReaperxKingx]

Originally Posted by Tigress

Well I'm a hopeless romantic ^.^

A lot of us are, some of us actually finds it.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by Knightrunner

I'm planning to concentrate in genetics. I guess I should keep my mouth shut for a while until I find an actual job that involves my specialty. Luckily, I plan to attend grad school. I'm hoping to meet a lot of potentials there

I wouldn't worry about it, my sister chose to abandon genetics of her own volition. Turns out she found labwork intolerably boring. I guess she should have thought a bit more about what sort of work she'd end out doing before starting a 4 year course.

When I decided to opt out of my initial college program and change majors I felt like a failure. Lots of outside pressures even reinforces that I really failed and should be frowned upon. I know some people lost respect for me even my own relatives. When you hear people actually call you "wishy washy" and other not so nice terms when your down it's definately hard to look forward. Even to this day it still bothers me, so I can't wait to graduate. The price for being known and starting off as a strong character in other people's eyes sure can give a good lashing.

I sympathise, I would have switched myself had it not been for my desire to finish as fast as possible, and also because I couldn't think of a less unpleasant major (though in hindsight, I probably would have enjoyed studying business, or maybe economics more)

Originally Posted by Ledgem

One of my engineering professors said something to our class that I thought was kind of shocking (and depressing, at the time). He said that we were here to learn, but what we were being taught ultimately was not that important. After we had graduated and were hired for a job, we would learn what we needed to know to do the job, on the job. The knowledge we learned in class would give us familiarity, but it would not be the case that we would be ready for any job once we graduated.

So then, what were we spending time in all of those classes for? "To learn how to learn."

I think the "learning to learn" argument is a copout. As children, we all have the ability to learn voracious amounts. At best, University arrests the degradation of our ability to learn, and even that I doubt. It's more a case that the average modern workplace, with it's repetitive inane tasks, is not conducive in helping people maintain their ability to acquire new knowledge and skills. I would maintain that the guy whose been flipping burgers a year out of university is just as bad at learning as the guy whose been flipping burgers for a year after high school.

However, it is impossible for a university to teach everything young engineers need to know starting on the job, as every job requires different skills. Instead they should endeavor to give a good foundation of knowledge and skills, which can easily be expanded upon, while also exposing them to all the jargon of the profession so that they can speak in the same language as professionals in the field (Engineers speak a language that only resembles English!). But certainly not only teaching to learn how to learn.

"Learning to learn" feels sentimental and trite. It's just an excuse for them to have low standards and not even try to stay up to date. If you're going to be in a place for 4 years (at large expense), you'd better hope to have learned a bit more then that!

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

I think the "learning to learn" argument is a copout. As children, we all have the ability to learn voracious amounts. At best, University arrests the degradation of our ability to learn, and even that I doubt. It's more a case that the average modern workplace, with it's repetitive inane tasks, is not conducive in helping people maintain their ability to acquire new knowledge and skills. I would maintain that the guy whose been flipping burgers a year out of university is just as bad at learning as the guy whose been flipping burgers for a year after high school.

I don't know about that. The university's sole goal is not "teaching how to learn," of course. You're being exposed to knowledge from various disciplines that you otherwise likely wouldn't experience (a fact and opportunity that many goal-driven students do not take advantage of), and you're receiving the fundamentals of the field that you'll be entering. But did you really know how to process information and apply it before the university setting?

It's possible that you did, if your schooling before the university level was intensive or focused in that manner. It's also possible that you didn't get it at the university, if you weren't exposed to the right mix of professors and scenarios. As I said before, in my own case I don't feel that I really got it until graduate school. The feeling that I get is that in America, the pre-college courses and activities that students participate in are rarely applied toward practical things, whereas in the university setting it becomes a bit more so. I'm under the impression that college today is a bit watered down compared to how it used to be, though.

Although I note that we're technically off-topic, I figured I'd mention it anyway.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

I don't know about that. The university's sole goal is not "teaching how to learn," of course. You're being exposed to knowledge from various disciplines that you otherwise likely wouldn't experience (a fact and opportunity that many goal-driven students do not take advantage of), and you're receiving the fundamentals of the field that you'll be entering. But did you really know how to process information and apply it before the university setting?

Yes, it's just how I am. I've always been able to excel in educational settings with minimal effort, to the envy of my peers. In terms of learning to process information and apply it, University didn't have anything to offer me. I could already go to any book, read it, and know most of the important salient points by the time I finished secondary school. In truth, I think the ability to do this is more a matter of maturity then time spent in education. You get better at separating the wheat from the chaff. I have certainly improved during my time in University, but none of this was due to anything the University required of me, and would have occurred regardless. Likewise, I already was fairly worldly at 18 (and continue to be), so University didn't really open me up to any new experiences (besides my exchange, which was an enlightening experience).

My main problem in University was that I didn't have the willpower to study diligently(unless I found the subject interesting, and presented interestingly). I would have preferred a university education that featured more collaborative problem solving and open inquiry, rather then what was a very passive experience that consisted of the Professors lecturing us, and us memorizing formulas and facts for exams. It does not help that professors tend to be a lot better at writing papers and conducting research then creating a quality learning environment. Any efforts to actively involve students were usually tokenistic or gimmicky at best, and it didn't help that students were also generally complicit in keeping things passive (as that is what they were all used to). It was less bad in the US, but still not great.

University was basically just like secondary school, but with worse teaching, larger classrooms, less class time, less direction and less time to digest material. The degree of isolation hit me particularly hard. In secondary school I had always tried to build good relationships with my teachers, and questioned them a lot. This was not possible in a class of 100+, made worse by my hearing snide remarks from other students directed at those who asked the professor questions. The American university I was in was better in this respect (with much less hostility towards questioning), but teaching quality was still mediocre compared to what I received in secondary school (which was admittedly better then most, as it was private).

I'm not against the idea of further education, but the way it's offered in Universities is rigid, obsolete, elitist and, worst of all, dull. I imagine that in the future Universities will go back to being focused on training future academics and researchers, as it should be. Not everyone want or need to be trained at a University.

Although I note that we're technically off-topic, I figured I'd mention it anyway.

We have been for a while, I figure we may as well finish what we begin, since no moderator has interfered (yet!).

[zebra]

Originally Posted by Tigress

As for myself. It is early days with my new relationship, so I am not running away with it. I am not even calling him my boyfriend yet. We want to take a few weeks to get used to the idea ourselves before making it official by telling other friends. Nothing has changed really in how we talk to each other and I think that is a good sign. I would rather we were friends first and lovers only second to that. I hope this is a realistic approach and I am not expecting too much. ^.^

I'm glad to hear that. ... I think I didn't comment on your case, since everything of value has already been said then, but I'm glad it's going this route.
Being friends with your lover is one of the greatest things you can get if you ask me. Personally, I can't be with someone longterm if we can't be friends as well. There is no need to rush anything, take everything at your own pace
It's good you two are able to do this without ot being weird - since you two know each other for so long.

Originally Posted by Knightrunner

lol Women to this day still puzzle me. I'll never figure them out. Taste is so variable in today's world.

Men puzzle me all the time, even so they are more easy to understand Way simpler, still a mystery sometimes.
Granted, often it's just me ovethinking things, but that only goes for guys I'm dating

[Paranoid Android]

Originally Posted by zebra

Men puzzle me all the time, even so they are more easy to understand Way simpler, still a mystery sometimes.
Granted, often it's just me ovethinking things, but that only goes for guys I'm dating

Haha, can't speak for all men but people like me are hard to read because we have a complex personality. However we are the most predictable type as the way we think is really rigid and never changing. I think the most important way of understanding men is to not quickly give them a stereotype. The stereotypes come with a lot of features that aren't present in the person you put it on.

My ex-gf has goldfish memory and forget a lot of things. Sometimes she'd object to something I'd do and half those things I can convince her with reasoning. A few days later she'll complain about the same thing and I said 'I just told you a few days ago!'. Then I'd have to explain again except this time she says 'I don't get it, that doesn't make any sense!'.

I don't expect to ever figure 'women' out, I give up on that. All I want to at least understand my partner.