2012-03-27, 17:35 | Link #28261 |
Dea ex Kakera
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Well, according to Our Confession, Beato didn't always trick her accomplices into thinking they were playing a game. If it was more convenient or there was some reason why the person wouldn't go along with it, she threatened them with the bomb instead. I imagine that since Nanjo is up close and personal with the corpses all the time, he falls into the "threaten with bomb" category.
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2012-03-29, 09:08 | Link #28262 | ||
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I don't think Ryuukishi is an idiot who just used a random number to say "huge explosion" without knowing what he was talking about either. Clearly, when he gave us the idea of a 1 kilometer wide explosion, he wanted us to throw realism out of the window, or rather to show us that mystery has to do it as much as fantasy does. Quote:
I considered Umineko to be a "coin" with two sides, mystery and fantasy. It'd be silly to consider one side of a coin to be its real side while the other is fake, is basically what I think concerning this. And OC really seems to fit with this, talking about 3 stories. Coin side Mystery, coin side Fantasy, and the coin itself, or if you want what is the story of Umineko itself (which seems to be basically a meta love story). As for the "how dunnit" and "why dunnit" relation, I mostly think like you do, except I sorta think this was Beato's game and the reason she couldn't win it easily : There is a why dunnit and a how dunnit for both mystery and fantasy. I believe Beatrice wanted to make a fantasy story that still requires thinking (and thus a how dunnit of mystery). When fantasy wins, the mystery how dunnit is crushed, and thus reasoning stops, which is not what Beatrice wanted. When mystery wins, the fantasy story is destroyed and becomes nothing but a lie, removing the tale that Beatrice wanted to write to begin with. So basically yeah we're supposed I believe to embrace both. OC only further convinced me I was right about this as it doesn't care about anything in the mystery outside of the how dunnit. Furthermore, in the vast majority of cases, the mystery answers we were provided are more crazy/insane then the fantasy answers. Nearly everything that concerns Beatrice 2 falls especially into that. |
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2012-03-29, 14:20 | Link #28263 |
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So then, have we really been reduced to that? I hate the very idea of shrugging our collective shoulders and saying "Well, he meant parts of it to be thought of this way, and parts of it to be thought of that way, I guess." That's pretty much the last word one can have about the matter, and it ultimately satisfies neither story element. If the idea was to advance a story in which the two are reconciled, I'd say it didn't work out very well.
Of course there are mystery-fantasies and fantasy-mysteries, but that isn't quite the same thing as what's being talked about here.
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2012-03-29, 18:08 | Link #28264 | |
Goat
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What exactly do you want out of Umineko's exchange between Fantasy and Mystery that is different from this? |
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2012-03-29, 21:36 | Link #28265 | |
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This normally would sound a crazy way to approach a novel, but the meta-fiction content of Umineko makes this very possible. As for the thinking part, Beatrice wanted us to think to reach her hidden answers (that we still cant agree at all on), not the technical truth of her how dunnit. She put foward a how dunnit to force to us to start reasoning. In the end, the murders and the red text exists pretty much for the same reason. They won't bring you the truth but without them we wouldn't even have bothered to start reasoning and trying to find the truth about Beatrice. I dont think this results in something as confusing or messy as your post seems to suggest. The only thing that remains really hard and confusing to get is the third story. |
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2012-03-30, 08:19 | Link #28266 | ||
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We're always lead to believe they're a huge mountain but actually they should be a mountain of around 91 cm × 90 cm × 85 cm. Which is a huge amount of gold but not such a huge mountain. Quote:
The last, to be honest, seems to be implied also by that forgery that had Battler as culprit merely because people wanted him to be the culprit... and by an ending in Ougon Musou Kyoku in which Battler is again the culprit because Beato said so (or so I've been said) and it can have a sense if we've to consider that this, for Beato was all a game and therefore a piece might have taken the 'culprit' card and be forced to act as culprit. Through yes, it destroy the mystery or better it destroy the importance of the mystery. The 'why dunnit' isn't anymore 'why the culprit did it' but 'why Beato wrote character X doing this and that' making more or less meaningless trying to understand the pieces' actions and ask us to understand Beato's motivations. Considering in Ep 5 Battler wanted to understand why Beato make this or that move it can fit even more... though I'll honestly admit that if that's the case I'm sorry there's not a motive for the mistery side of the story. |
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2012-03-30, 09:42 | Link #28267 |
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I think the games are... let's say "overexaggerations that became real".
For example George said that he would eliminate everyone, who would stand before his and Shanon's love (see Alliance o.t.g.W.), but would not really ever do that. Or maybe Beatrice would kill 6 people, that would be later revived by her magic again and everyone having a happy end. While in the real world they were only playing dead, in the games they really die, because "magic" in another sense becomes true. But this magic is not the one, where you can create fireballs or lightning from your hands, but instead the "human tricks" that she tries to make others believe it's really magic. So if we look at her goal of making others believe in magic, then wouldn't it make more sense to bring the to play dead and then say she "revived them again"? Isn't that more effective than really killing them and putting them in some closed rooms? There are many solutions to closed rooms, but i doubt you could find any explanation for someone "rising from the dead" aside from them having played dead or that "a mircale occured". So what I want to say is, that a big part of the content is metaphorical and has content, that for some people may be more worth, than just finding the murder, his methods and his reasons for murder. Also if you remember, Battler called the gameboard a "love letter" from Beato to him. But that cannot be the mystery, because that is something that the whole world got to know about. So there must be a "hidden element" in it that was adressed only to him. I think that is the difference between Battler's and Will's reasoning. While Will found the motive of the "killer" on the gameboard, Battler went further and found the motive of the author. |
2012-03-30, 10:51 | Link #28268 |
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Considering the idea that piece Beato is aware of being a fictional character...
I think thats right. That's why Shannon and Kanon consider themselves furniture. They are only roles for a story, fictional character. They do not have any freedom, nor any rights. They clearly do not have any future and must serve and be grateful until they are thrown away. This fits very well with fictional characters aware of being so. Beatrice is implied constantly to be partially a furniture as well. Furthermore, I think the golden land and the meta-world are basically the same thing. Rather the golden land lies in accepting it. I think its a sort of ultimate breaking the fourth wall world where there isnt any more distinction between fictional and real. I guess, its sorta like some anime that has the entire cast (including all the dead characters) going in vacation after the story is over, or other such thing (actually I just remembered arc 8 does something ridiculously similar to that). In Uminekos case its more pertinent however as there are various levels of story. You know like that story about a couple that became animals during the day/night and thus couldnt ever be together? Think about Battler being stuck in the level of mystery and beatrice on the level of Fantasy, seperate world stories, and they can only meet in that upper meta-world where such distinctions doesnt matter and I think it results in an intersting love story. Edit: Also I think its possible that we got it all wrong. The mystery scenes are as figurative as fantasy scenes. Beato and Battler not being together, to use my example, is a Meta-truth, and is absolute. On the mystery side, to keep that relation, a story needs to exist to explain why Yasu and Battler arent together. The mystery story, however, would be a fiction that represents that above truth. It only makes sense, because Umineko is a fiction, and writers puts into their fictions stories based on things they lived, not the other way around. So its like Ryuukishi translated as Beatrice translated as Yasu. Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2012-03-30 at 11:09. |
2012-03-30, 11:16 | Link #28269 |
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I think that your interpretation of the idea is wandering far afield. It's fine to speculate on it, but what specifically backs it up? "I can't explain it, therefore there was probably a meta-motive" is insufficient; it should be possible to demonstrate that the only motive which can function is a meta-motive. I'm thoroughly unconvinced that such a thing is true for any character, no matter how they're portrayed.
That aside, the mere fact a character is fictional and knows it doesn't actually mean they have to be motivated by meta-fictional elements.Need I want something, or can I not just be disappointed?
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2012-03-30, 12:03 | Link #28270 |
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Well from my pov its a matter of theme and emphasis of the story.
Even arc 7 that dealt with Yasu's motives had little to do with actual murder. So it's more I cannot reach a decisive conclusion concerning the pieces' motives and the story itself does not seem to care much about such a thing, and especially Battler who figured things out. Arc 5 and 6 in particular seems to put a huge emphasis on the murder part not being the motives we're seeking. I mean, did you ever get the feeling that arc 6 was related in any ways to understanding why did piece-Erika murder the ones she murdered or why did everyone fake their death? I think the problem overall here is more related to thinking that as a meta-fiction, Umineko basically says the obvious in most cases. But I think that obvious sorta falls into the same category as "people die when you kill them" (Fate) meaning that something being obvious can still be worth to seriously consider and not ridiculised, even tho it's easy and tempting sometimes to do so. What I do not get tho is why you dislike this considering your theory about the meta-world where Battler was an experiment created by Featherine and what else. Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2012-03-30 at 12:14. |
2012-03-30, 14:05 | Link #28272 |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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Well, we already compared Umineko to a metaphor more than once.
So we could see it like that. The incident really happened and Yasu and Battler survived becoming Ikuko and Toya. Ikuko began writing forgeries in which ShKannon was the culprit in hope Toya (who was helping her) would guess why she was doing it. Somehow Toya's brain translated it into a meta battle between his Battler self and Beato while the various stories became 'fragments'. In short the mystery at which Battler/Toya is challenged isn't the murdering one but figuring out the writer's motivations so the motive EP 7 offered (playing a murder game with Battler) would be the motive behind Yasu the writer and Battler is supposed to guess why she's applying to PieceYasu as it's obviously a weak motive to make a mass murder. And... hum... wasn't it said/implied that in Our Confession the culprit has a meta motive? Also... has someone even thought the numbers we're given in EP 7 2,578,917/2,578,916 might be some sort of code message/have a meaning? I mean, Umineko is full of number messages (Toya's name and penname, the same is applied to Ikuko, there are numbers involved in the epitaph riddle and there's a number in Ep 3) so is it possible that those numbers in Japanese might be read in a way that is meaningful? |
2012-03-30, 14:07 | Link #28273 | |
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Feel free to correct me if I am wrong but wasn't that a counter of Eva-Beatrice in EP3? That Eva-Beatrice plunged Kirie's motive into fantasy by saying that she as a witch controlled her since Kirie's motive for leaving was not to gather food. That Battler needed to find a proof and make the correct deduction about Kirie's motive otherwise Eva-Beatrice as part of the witch side could still win due to upholding a part of the witch's illusion. The detective needs to also work out motive with clues, hints and analysis of character. In fact Will the detective has emphasized that point more than anyone. Basically what you are saying that Nanjo's motive is pure fantasy. No different than if he were to be controlled by a witch. I don't know, it just feels odd to base the motive on fantasy. |
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2012-03-30, 14:18 | Link #28274 | |
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It could have been a motive we would have accepted hadn't we believed they were smarter than that. In the same way someone who doesn't know Nanjo can accept he would lie over the people being dead or not, if offered money or that Shannon would kill everyone to get Battler's attention. It's Battler who's supposed to figure out this is not what the REAL Shannon would do and wonder why she was given such a OOC motive. |
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2012-03-30, 15:08 | Link #28276 | |
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That's right. I tried to make the point plently of times already, that the character's behavior differ a lot between WTC3 and WTC4. And even the "protagonist" of the story, Battler, did so. Erika stated in EP6, that the witches game toughed Battler up, however she realized that she was talking to PieceBattler then, who did NOT go through the witches' games. In other words, even the PieceBattler from the first Episodes is different from the latter Episodes. Same for Beato and Kinzo. In WTC3 they were the really, really "bad guys" and then both suddenly made a "Heel Face Turn". And this is a point that is not only reduced to "reliable scenes vs fantasy scenes". Even when comparing the scenes with the detective present, there are changes in behaviour between the Episodes. |
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2012-03-30, 15:08 | Link #28277 | ||
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Motive is large part of that, in fact the heart of all the games. The motive for the murders is within the first four EP like Will said IIRC. Quote:
Also why is it is OOC for Shannon keep in mind that the person who we know as Shannon shares a heart and body with Kanon and Beatrice. Given that they serve Beatrice and always seem to get killed when confronting her that she is the personality in control as far as the games. As shown that Beatrice can kill and resurrect them like she did in EP3. Interestingly enough on the Meta level, it was also shown that Meta Beatrice is extremely good at acting to fool others like she did to Meta Battler. What is OOC for Shannon like murder is possible for Beatrice. While other actions like a lover suicide is in character for Shannon for example in EP2. |
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2012-03-30, 15:20 | Link #28278 | |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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I think it's relevant to the fantasy/meta motive discussion, so here's the end of Our Confessions (translated/summerized by LyricalAura):
Disappointment implies expectations not met, does it not? Quote:
There are a couple things I would like to mention about it, though. First: It was Eva-Beatrice, not Beatrice, who made motive a game issue. Beatrice had ample opportunities to post similar challenges to Battler, but never did. Second: I'm not saying that all motive is based on fantasy, just Yasu's motive for murder (and perhaps that of her accomplices in helping her). Kyrie's case in EP3 would likely be different. To basically restate what jjblue1 has just recently suggested, you could say that Beatrice is ignoring the murder motive on purpose, specifically so that Battler could realize that there actually isn't one. In other words, the fact that Battler is directed to think about motive, and that Will places so much attention to motive is precisely because the reader is supposed to realize that the fictions lack a satisfying motive and that there is no "better" answer than "Nanjo was controlled by a witch". After all, Yasu/Hachijou unilaterally wrote Nanjo that way without the real Nanjo having any kind of say in the matter. And let's also not forget he's called a "piece": Pieces in games don't control themselves; they are controlled by the people playing the game. |
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2012-03-30, 15:34 | Link #28279 | |||||
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If Bern forced Rudolf and Kirye to act that way for a motive that's not realistic enough why shouldn't Beato do the same with Shannon, giving her a motive that, simply put, is weak? Quote:
I'm not saying he did the good thing at lying previously but I can understand his actions... while if he were to aid the culprit... well... the gravity of his lie changes radically... Quote:
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2012-03-30, 16:19 | Link #28280 | |||||||
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Motive was never an issue because Battler was having enough trouble with the Whodunnit and Howdunnit. Even with when the issue of Whydunnit came up, Beatrice helped him through it. Like I said, saying that motive is fantasy within the very story it is trying to tell is more like what the witch side would do. Quote:
The whole games that Beatrice made was made to understand the heart of Beatrice. Understanding the heart of Beatrice allows one to understand the mysteries of all of the games. That is why Battler kept antagonizing over Beatrice's mindset throughout EP5 on why characters acted as they did. Nanjo is a piece but piece of the puzzle to solve Beatrice's puzzle that she presented to Battler. Or better said that the author presents to the readers. Quote:
The games are portrayed as both mysteries and fantasy that is meant to direct one towards an overall truth. If the first four games have the same characters and same game master, why should the motives be made up as well? Quote:
If the motive is weak then perhaps it is because you lack love Quote:
Possible it was out of loyalty for Kinzo or Nanjo with enough pressure has no problems to aid such actions. Basically if someone were to put enough pressure on Nanjo, why wouldn't he aid a serial murderer? Quote:
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