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View Poll Results: Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Episode 23 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 29 | 23.58% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 26 | 21.14% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 28 | 22.76% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 20 | 16.26% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 10 | 8.13% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 4 | 3.25% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 1 | 0.81% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 0 | 0% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 0 | 0% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 5 | 4.07% | |
Voters: 123. You may not vote on this poll |
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2009-12-07, 12:09 | Link #141 |
Witch's Golden Breaker
Join Date: Sep 2009
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Ange's reaction was a lot more vivid in the VN as well, and if I recall the back room was described as being a lot more cluttered than what we see in the Anime. I just figure that he had no idea what she could be looking at that would give her such an astonished and even seemingly frightened reaction. Even if he knew this Sakutaro was a gift Rosa wanted to give to Maria 12 years ago, he probably wouldn't imagine it would warrant such a reaction. If I were him, and Ange was there staring into the back of the place at something that gave her such a reaction, my mind wouldn't immediately jump to 'oh you're looking at that plushie'.
I mean, even if he did know its significance, it's still a plushie and he has no reason to suspect that means anything to Ange, especially since she wasn't there in 1986 when Rosa may have had the captain hold onto Sakutaro. And if the room is super cluttered like I imagined in the VN, it makes it even more understandable that he might not know what exactly Ange was looking at. I don't think him not knowing is very unusual at all. She was acting like she saw a ghost - and to the captain, there was nothing in that room that should warrant such a strange reaction, so of course he was confused.
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2009-12-07, 19:04 | Link #143 | |
The Great Dine
Join Date: Feb 2009
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But yeah it is interesting that only Mammon's stake was found, when it was staked into Kyrie, but every other stake wasn't, along with the bodies. |
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2009-12-08, 01:11 | Link #144 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Second: why would Rosa bring Sakutaro to Rokkenjima if it wasn't finished? Third: why the fact that was unfinished (which is just your speculation btw) a reason enough for the captain to keep something that wasn't his own property? None of this makes any sense. Quote:
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2009-12-08, 01:52 | Link #146 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
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@Jan-Poo:
1.WHen you leave something in someone's home, you don't just put it there without telling the person, especially when that person is a friend of yours. Isn't it normal that when you leave something for someone to watch over it, you will tell the time you are going to take it back? 2.Because she wants to finish it as quickly as possible and gives it to Maria soon, not after they got back home. Spoiler for SN EP4 spoiler:
Then all Rosa needed to do is: after finishing the neckerchief, she got back Sakutarou, and placed the neckerchief onto Sakutarou and presented this gift to Maria. It all makes sense, I guess. ----------------------- As long as the captain did not know Ange had knew about Sakutarou, he could not understand how come she had such a big reaction, even if he somehow guessed she was referring to the plush. Last edited by ijriims; 2009-12-09 at 00:32. |
2009-12-08, 08:13 | Link #148 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
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Quote:
If we put in our mind the length of the period (12 years) we can assume that the captain is forgot about the plush that’s why he didn’t understand directly what Ange was looking at? Or maybe he did understand but reacted as he is not .. we can assume lots of things. But this is not the problem .. the problem is: this Stuffed animal belong to whom?! And why he didn’t return it?! *If it belongs to him and his children .. it will not effect anything except that we will know that Sakutaro is not a handmade by Rosa. * If he didn’t know about it .. then he didn’t know anything unless he is lying. * If he found it in the beach before or after the incident, then there is a chance that he didn’t thought it that it belongs to the family that’s why he didn’t returned it. But might he knew but didn’t return it. * If he knew that it belongs to Maria .. then the question is who gave him this plush? Is it Rosa or Maria .. if its Rosa, it might be another Sakutaro .. if its Maria then it might be the same torn one .. bcoz we are not sure if its complete or not so there is a chance it might be the actual one (the torn one) that Maria brought it with her and put it here before the departing. * If the man knew about it why didn’t he returned it to Eva?! .. first answering ijriims; he will not give it to her as a gift like he will said "Eva-Sama, this plush is gift from me to you!!" com'n as a worker, and a loyal one he must returned everything he had or found that belongs to the family to Eva (bcoz she is the only survivor) .. her age is unrelated to those manners nor if the plush is completed or not. He must put everything he had that belongs to them inside a bag or a box and give it to her whether it is a toy or a gold, new or broken. So the answer of not returning it to them could be one of the followings: Not know about it / forget about it / found it but not think that is related to the family / belong to his children / gift from Rosa / it wasn’t there until today (although I don’t like the last one coz as an experienced captain he must noticing anything strange on his boat while in the ep he was acting normal). |
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2009-12-08, 08:42 | Link #149 | |
Witch's Golden Breaker
Join Date: Sep 2009
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I remember in the VN when he's talking to Ange he stresses that he wants her to come back safe, because his closure is that he was charged with bringing the family to and back from the island which didn't happen...kinda eluded to in the Anime as well, but not as bluntly, but either way this says that the Rokkenjima incident means a lot to him. In which case, if he held onto Sakutaro for some sentimental reason or 'unfinished business', then yes, he should know full well that it was still back there even if it has been 12 years since...and should have either A) offered it to Ange or B) at least known what she was looking at (though her reaction was still like she saw a ghost, so I stand by the fact that he might assume that she's seeing something else that he can't see...like a witch). But all that hinges on Sakutaro being a unique stuffed toy. If he found it he would have to have remembered Maria playing with it, because that's just the kind of kid she is. Remember all the convenience store people? Maria became well known in that area because she was going to buy food every night when Rosa was away, and everyone remembered the loud, happy little girl and her stuffed lion. Wouldn't the captain remember the same? But if Sakutaro was actually a manufactured toy, maybe not. Maybe he'd associate it more with his own kids than with a girl he ferried to an island once or twice (yes, I know she went to more than that many conferences, but not with Sakutaro). So if that Sakutaro in the bag wasn't Maria's Sakutaro, then yeah, maybe he wouldn't connect the two. Though if that were the case it raises questions as to why Ange thought of it as 'magic'...was she that much younger than Maria (3 years) that she wouldn't remember a fad of popular lion plushies at the time? Or maybe it was a market product, but not some super popular thing and it's just a coincidence that Kawabata has one in his shop? That'd be kinda weird. If it wasn't the Sakutaro, I'd have to think that those lion toys were really popular, or it'd just be way too convenient for him to have one as well. All in all...yeah, I got nothin'. But I stand by what I said...with the kind of girl Maria is, if Sakutaro was truly the one and only lion toy of his kind, then I can't imagine how Kawabata wouldn't remember that poor unfortunate little girl who died in that massacre. He'd have to connect the lion to Maria. It makes more sense that this would be a reason for him to save the toy in his shop, too (if it was something of his own children's, for instance, wouldn't it be in his home instead, and not stuffed in a random bag in a back room?), so he has to know the plushie is connected to the incident if it's the only Sakutaro. Which just makes it very confusing as to why A) he kept it and it didn't get distributed to the survivors and B) why he couldn't guess that it might be what Ange was looking at. This is kinda why I always thought the 'what Ange saw was Sakutaro' theory was stupid, because I can't make sense of it...turns out I'm the stupid one, since it's true. Dammit, DEEN.
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2009-12-08, 08:52 | Link #150 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Well I think that regardless of the many interpretations we can at least agree that as K//eternal said, the shop was supposed to have many other junk in there. If it was exactly as the anime showed to us that scene makes really little sense.
'Though I don't get why in a futon shop there was all that random stuff. That point apart we still have the problem to explain what exactly is the meaning of a Sakutaro in that place. How exactly Ange was able to figure out anything seeing that?
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2009-12-08, 09:05 | Link #151 |
Witch's Golden Breaker
Join Date: Sep 2009
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That's another reason I really disliked the Anime's version of that scene. It feels so scripted. Ange looks, sees bag, reacts like 'OMG, I gets it nao, Maria-Oneechan, Beatrice, this is magic'...um...wut? Seriously, it loses a lot of impact without seeing the reactions of everyone else...Kawabata and Amakusa on the 'human' side of things, both unable to see what exactly is going on or why Ange is reacting that way, and then on the 'magic' side we have Ange herself as well as the stakes (or was it just Mammon, I forget) and Sakutaro himself. Especially with the Anime essentially proving it was Sakutaro's plushie form in that bag, why remove the reaction of Anthro!Sakutaro? It makes the whole scene a lot more confusing and honestly if I hadn't read the VN I would think that scene was kinda pointless. I think the reactions of everyone else are important, especially Anthro!Sakutaro, because he actually seems more shocked/scared than Ange does...which doesn't explain why what she sees is apparently 'magic' and the answer to everything she's searching for, but it does imply that the scene is a big hint somehow.
Anyone remember exactly what it is the non-Ange folks say in the VN during that scene? I kinda haven't finished EP4 on my laptop so I can't do scene select for it, and I'm too lazy to 'S' through the whole thing. I don't think it was any less vague than what Ange said or what we got in the Anime (it was the reactions themselves that I feel were missing in the Anime, not what was said), but I could be wrong.
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2009-12-09, 00:45 | Link #153 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
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Quote:
Spoiler for Possible spoiler from EP4 SN:
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2009-12-09, 01:58 | Link #154 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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1) Why would Rosa give Sakutaro to Kawabata? What's the point of bringing Sakutaro along only to leave it to some random people? Let's say there is a reason for Rosa wanting to give Sakutaro to Maria at the family meeting. But don't you think that in that case leaving Sakutaro to Kawabata completely defies this purpose? Kawabata was only supposed to come back once the family meeting ended. The travel back to home would only be about 4 hours long. So it would be totally pointless to bring Sakutaro along only to give it to Maria at best 4 hours earlier
2) The neckerchief wasn't part of Sakutaro. It was Maria's idea to give the neckerchief to Sakutaro, which means Sakutaro doesn't need a neckerchief to be "finished". In addition there is no reason to think the original neckerchief was damaged in any way (the VN doesn't say that, the anime shows no damage), which means Rosa could have simply reused that.
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2009-12-09, 02:26 | Link #155 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
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Quote:
Rosa wanted to finish it as quickly as possible but she still could not finish it by the time the family meeting came. In the best case, she could present it to Maria in the meeting, in front of everyone. But she did not finish it yet. So in a sub-optimal case she would present it on their way back home, so she would still present it to Maria before everyone. She probably already was working hard on the ship when they were going to Rokkenjima and she expected she would finish it all when they took the journey back. Even though the neckerchief was not part of Rosa's origianl design, if Maria like it and she wanted to repent for what she did in the past, she would most likely make it as well to applease her. Spoiler for spoiler from SN:
BTW, why did you hate so much about Rosa remaking Sakutarou? Don't you think Ryukishi07 wants to give an opportunity for her to redeem herself, despite all the things she did and shown in EP4. |
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2009-12-09, 02:34 | Link #156 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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I do not hate that theory at all, but why that should make me thing that Rosa was acting in such an irrational way? Bringing Sakutaro along and then leaving it to Kawabata for no apparent reasons, she had a big luggage she could have kept sakutaro there. And then not wanting to wait 4 hours to give the gift to Maria is just incredibly pointless.
There has to be a better explanation than this.
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2009-12-09, 02:43 | Link #157 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
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2009-12-09, 03:11 | Link #159 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
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Another hypothesis was that she did bring an almost completed Sakutarou to Rokkenjima, what in the captain's home was some less-than-perfect replicas of the initial Sakutarou (perhaps the lining was messed up or the shape did not match). She did not want to throw those failed replica away so she gave them to the captain (assuming he had some grandchildren so he could give it to them)
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2009-12-09, 03:15 | Link #160 |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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How about "It was one of the things Eva recovered, and she accidentally left it on Kawabata's boat when she returned to Nijima, due to the emotional damage from losing her entire family and shooting her favorite nephew in the chest"?
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