[Manga] Naruto Chapter 601 Discussion Thread

[itachi-san314]

my assumption was just that madara knew it was a clone since he's badass and can simply tell it isn't the real naruto. we've seen the sharingan and rinnegan fooled by clones before (deidara vs sasuke, kakashi vs pain, kakashi vs itachi, naruto vs pain, jiraiya vs pain, etc...)

Originally Posted by ShadowUchiha

Obito awakening his Mangekyo is probably the cause of Kakashi gaining his

tobi had MS well before kakashi did so that isn't possible.

I think he knew Rin died in the way he can "locate anyone and teleport to their location."

obito doesn't have that ability as far as i know. thats part of the reason why he uses zetsu to locate people for him.

Obito was so distraught about Kabuto bringing Madara back, because that means he can't be revived through the Rinne-Tensei revival(Rinnegan technique Nagato used to revive Konoha) because his soul is already in use. Doing this forced Obito to protect Kabuto; because if he were killed, then the soul could never be released, only sealed.

not really. nagato's betrayal was what prevented using rinne tensei to bring back madara. having madara brought back by kabuto was an unexpected favor. we never see obito make any effort to help sustain madara's ET either. i'm sure he knows (as we should by now) that madara doesn't need much help doing anything. ..except resurrecting of course

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

in response to the people (like you) who are jumping to the conclusion of 'bad writing'

Sometimes there's bad writing in the Naruto manga, i don't see why should we deny that. Bad writing can be made even by the greatest authors of all time, everybody can have bad decisions. And since Kishimoto (and his team i guess) are doing this story non-stop for 12 years now, it's natural that there are parts of the story that are not really good. Overall i enjoy the story, the characters, and the artwork, but that does not mean that i won't complain whenever i see something that doesn't fit in the big picture. This Obito thing is not the first time i complained about something. I remember when Naruto was fighting against Pain, and the prophecy that Naruto will be the "revolutionary" who will change the world. Well, i complained enough because Naruto instead of being the revolutionary didn't do anything to change the evil ninja system (that is Danzou was not killed by Naruto but by Sasuke), and Naruto ended up on a distant island checking animal penises. My major problem with the Tobi=Obito theory is not that i hate the idea of such a plot twist but that it introduces a large amount of plot holes and i don't believe that Kishimoto can explain all those (unless Tobi's idenity is bit more complex than simply being Obito). For me the Tobi=Obito theory was never an "obvious" one, simply because of all the inconsistencies that would introduce. Imagine the Dragon Ball Z time travel story without multiple timelines, if all that happened in the same timeline, that would be a total mess and full of time paradoxes. That is how many inconsistencies the Tobi=Obito story has right now.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Sometimes there's bad writing in the Naruto manga, i don't see why should we deny that. Bad writing can be made even by the greatest authors of all time, everybody can have bad decisions. And since Kishimoto (and his team i guess) are doing this story non-stop for 12 years now, it's natural that there are parts of the story that are not really good.

what you seem to be referring to are occasional gaffs or poorly developed side-stories. but tobi's identity and naruto being the revolutionary of the ninja world are major story lines. i don't see either as bad writing and i dont think that if i did, i would then be able to say that kishi is a great writer despite them.

I remember when Naruto was fighting against Pain, and the prophecy that Naruto will be the "revolutionary" who will change the world. Well, i complained enough because Naruto instead of being the revolutionary didn't do anything to change the evil ninja system (that is Danzou was not killed by Naruto but by Sasuke), and Naruto ended up on a distant island checking animal penises.

it sounds to me like you jumped to a conclusion in this case as well. killing danzo wasn't the 'end all' of revolutionizing the ninja world. naruto hasn't done it yet. just like how the obito backstory isn't fully revealed yet.

and just for starters, naruto changed nagato's mind which not only saved konoha, but all other villages and countries that akatsuki planned on using nagato's power to destroy. it put a huge damper on akatsuki's plans, nearly preventing madara from even being resurrected. and it made an ally in konan who arguably nearly killed tobi herself. he basically single-handedly reformed the alliance between the leaf and sand. naruto also was instrumental in getting the kages to cooperate and change their mindsets (Gaara, A and Oonoki via Gaara's influence who is a disciple of Narutism). and like I said, we have yet to even see naruto's full influence on changing the ninja world. concluding that the prophesy was bad writing because naruto didn't kill danzo makes no sense

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by Artful Dodger

Honestly, some of you naruto fanboys sound like whining crybabies now. So now theres a problem if Madara is able to differentiate between bushins? And there was another one who even asked why Madara wasn't impressed or commented on Naruto's mastery of the fox, I mean why should he be impressed with someone using the fox's power? He can make the fox roll over and beg for treats, who cares? So what if the sharingan and rinnegan weren't mentioned being able to differentiate between bushins, how do you know he's even using his eyes to sense it??

Seriously, between all the bullshit Naruto's been able to pull off lately, and the utterly ludicrous powerups, I can't believe people are still finding reasons to complain, especially when Madara is supposed to be a legendary ninja.

why hello there...that particular question was mine and it was not a complaint. i enjoy the manga, but I'm far from either of those adjectives you feel big enough to use for people you don't know...

i only posed the question because i was thinking about mito uzumaki extent of using kyuubi power since it was mentioned that she could sense malicious intent.(during the chapter when kisame was found out.) i wondered whether or not madara bared witness to her using the nine tails chakra (assuming she could). if he hadn't, i imagine he would at least comment on it while watching this 16yr old make good work of it. (just like he commented on naruto when he threw the wind rasengan at him earlier.) i know madara is badass legendary ninja. I'm glad he is everything he has been hyped to be (he'll be awesome in future video games.) i just figured seeing naruto use the nine tails power to this extent would prompt him to at least ponder about it...

...have good day...

[Destined_Fate]

Well, he's a Zombie with cracks now. I'm guessing there must have been something he could do if he got his real body back. Maybe he learned a thing watching Orochimaru and wanted to jump into Obito's body? I'm sure being a Zombie must have some downsides hence why he didn't want to use it so readily.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by The Small One

BTW, I wonder why Madara intended to be revived by the Rinnegan in the first place.
From all we know, this ressurection just brings the person back the way they were before they died. So in case of dying of old age, he would die a second time soon afterwards.
On the other hand the Edo Tensei grants the Zombie with infinite chakra, endless regeneration and the like. The only downside there was was already broken by Madara, so in the end THIS kind of revival was the better deal for him, wasn't it?

I think it's obvious that he wanted to combine the revival with something connected to the 10-tails. He and Tobi had a plan with the 10-tails, and then Madara tells he would be revived "when the time is right", so it seems obvious that he didn't want Nagato to revive him until something else has been done and it's probably something about the 10-tails. Also Tobi said while impersonating Madara that he wants to become "complete". And the reason is most likely that there's no point in being revived if you are mortal again and in a few decades you get old and die again. So my guess is that Madara wanted to be revived into an immortal state that would be granted to him by using the power of the 10-tails. Maybe inside their infite tsukiyomi he would be a god, or something like that. I mean infinite tsukiyomi can't just be a regular genjutsu since while inside the illusion people's real body would die without water and food, so it could be that the 10-tails also destroys the known world as it created it and creates a new world where the creation and all existence is ruled by Madara and Tobi.

[ShadowUchiha]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

not really. nagato's betrayal was what prevented using rinne tensei to bring back madara. having madara brought back by kabuto was an unexpected favor. we never see obito make any effort to help sustain madara's ET either. i'm sure he knows (as we should by now) that madara doesn't need much help doing anything. ..except resurrecting of course

I guess what I meant to say was that Kabuto bringing Madara's soul back with the Edo-Tensei disallows Madara from being able to be resurrected via the Rinne-Tensei unless Kabuto releases the soul.
"http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Madara%27s_Teleporting_Technique"
By his own admission, Tobi can locate anyone and teleport to their current destination regardless of their whereabouts, evidenced by how he immediately found Taka as they were travelling to Konohagakure, as well as Minato Namikaze, who himself had teleported away from Tobi.

I think you could be correct. But maybe Kakashi didn't have enough mastery of the sharingan to use it, even though the ability was there.

Originally Posted by The Small One

BTW, I wonder why Madara intended to be revived by the Rinnegan in the first place.
From all we know, this ressurection just brings the person back the way they were before they died. So in case of dying of old age, he would die a second time soon afterwards.
On the other hand the Edo Tensei grants the Zombie with infinite chakra, endless regeneration and the like. The only downside there was was already broken by Madara, so in the end THIS kind of revival was the better deal for him, wasn't it?

I agree it probably has something to do with synchronizing with the ten tails. He probably has to be in control of his soul, which the Rinne-Tensei would grant, whereas with the Edo-Tensei the caster is in control of his soul, even if you can overpower his will.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

what you seem to be referring to are occasional gaffs or poorly developed side-stories. but tobi's identity and naruto being the revolutionary of the ninja world are major story lines. i don't see either as bad writing and i dont think that if i did, i would then be able to say that kishi is a great writer despite them.

The main story line develops for many years here, i didn't mean that the whole thing was "bad", just that it has bad parts. But most of the time we read about these "side-stories" and different parts of the main story, so if these are mostly good then why do you care so much about that 10% of time when there's some revelation about Tobi's identity or a "revolutionary" examining some animal penises I already got over this Tobi=Obito thing because here we have a Madara vs Naruto fight and a Kakashi vs Tobi fight which will be most likely really good parts, so who cares about chapter 599 and 600 any more
The Tobi=Obito still looks a bad choice (or "bad writing" if we want to call it like that), but i enjoyed this chapter again so who cares

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

it sounds to me like you jumped to a conclusion in this case as well. killing danzo wasn't the 'end all' of revolutionizing the ninja world. naruto hasn't done it yet.

He didn't do shit about Danzou becoming hokage, he just let himself be beaten up and then escaped the village and finally he bowed before the raikage, he sure didn't look like someone who would deal with the evil leaders of the ninja world. Instead the guys who actually get rid of Danzou and who unites all the villages into one alliance are Sasuke and Tobi
Naruto tells will deal with the hatred and then we see Tobi causing the 5 ninja villages to become allies and forget their hatred towards each other and fight together.
I understand if you say that it is good writing: the author wants Naruto to never use force and never kill people, that's a working model in fiction. So it's a matter of opinion. What i didn't like was how the author prevents Naruto from doing what has to be done, that's very similar to how the author prevented Sasuke from killing anyone from Konoha despite his goal of destroying konoha. Here the bad writing means that those "plot shields" are so damn visible.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

it put a huge damper on akatsuki's plans, nearly preventing madara from even being resurrected.

Well a revolutionary is not one who defends the current world order. A revolutionary has to change the ninja villages, the ruling system, and not to fight some terrorist organization. If Naruto destroyed the akatsuki then there would be no alliance and the villages would have continued plotting against each other.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

and it made an ally in konan who arguably nearly killed tobi herself. he basically single-handedly reformed the alliance between the leaf and sand. naruto also was instrumental in getting the kages to cooperate and change their mindsets (Gaara, A and Oonoki via Gaara's influence who is a disciple of Narutism). and like I said, we have yet to even see naruto's full influence on changing the ninja world. concluding that the prophesy was bad writing because naruto didn't kill danzo makes no sense

That's a good point, i agree that Naruto's "talk no jutsu" is very strong
But without the akatsuki and Orochimaru he could have talked all he wanted and there would be no alliance. Sure the author could have made Naruto the ninja who always defeats his enemies but never kills them in the ninja wars between villages. Some ninja of other villages would respect him but some others would call him a "fool", then his own village would eventually treat him similarily to how they treated Kakashi's father. Then he could make an organization like the one Yahiko made, try to change things, then people like Danzou would betray him, then maybe Naruto would end up changing his organization to seek a military solution, and he would be called a terrorist

[Shining Celebi]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

. Here the bad writing means that those "plot shields" are so damn visible.

Exactly, this is basically what I mean by a lot of it too.

For example, many people have explained us not seeing Tobi's Mangekyou up to now or Tobi's claim he gave the Rinnegan to Nagato as "well, he couldn't have done otherwise, otherwise the viewers would know the truth."

If you have characters lying for no reason except to deceive the viewer, that's just stupid.

I hope that's not the real explanation (although for the Mangekyou I expect it is) but if so, :\

[Midnight Commander]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Those are inconsistencies made only for the benefit of the readers to keep us off balance but in insight they just make no sense whatsoever. Remember when Deva Path gave orders to the others Path just before his assault on Konoha? Same thing : the readers weren't yet told that those were just all puppets under a single mind and the author tried to make us keep guessing even if in insight the scene is absurd.

Speaking of weird inconsistencies, this made me think of the Sasori fight against Chiyo and Sakura. All fight long, Sasori had facial expressions, until it was revealed that his body was actually a puppet, and thereafter his face ceased exhibiting facial expressions and looked like an emotionless puppet.

[Dengar]

Ninja magic.

[SimplyAJ]

And there is also the fact that the mangekyo-sharingan is supposed to damage the user's eyes after use, until they ya know, go blind. Yet, Kakashi and Obito have been using theirs seemingly just fine. ESPECIALLY Obito, who uses his practically nonstop for everything ever. We know that they can't have the eternal version, seeing as that changes the look of it (yet again), and currently theirs still match. It just doesn't make sense. There is no way either should be too "strong" to resist that, seeing as even MADARA went blind from his.

Plus there is the fact that they are the only ones with a DIFFERENT type of sharingan. Everybody else's has the ability to use amaterasu and susanoo et cetera, yet somehow these two are the only ones without them, but can also only use Kamui? Just seems weird.

Point is, man, the sharingan is really lame.

[Destined_Fate]

Or the Sharingan is just selective when it comes to following its own rules or not as the plot deems it.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by SimplyAJ

And there is also the fact that the mangekyo-sharingan is supposed to damage the user's eyes after use, until they ya know, go blind. Yet, Kakashi and Obito have been using theirs seemingly just fine. ESPECIALLY Obito, who uses his practically nonstop for everything ever. We know that they can't have the eternal version, seeing as that changes the look of it (yet again), and currently theirs still match. It just doesn't make sense. There is no way either should be too "strong" to resist that, seeing as even MADARA went blind from his.

we don't know exactly how much each ninja used their MS. we don't know how much itachi or madara used theirs, but i can guarantee that it was a lot before they went blind. in kakashi's case, he hasn't really used it that much in comparison to what madara or itachi probably did. we also don't know how slowly it happens. kakashi did start feeling the effects of the blindness, but we have no measuring stick to know how long he has or how much he can use it before he goes blind in that eye. as for obito, he has used it a lot, but he not only has senju dna to help, we just don't know his level of blindness yet. with senju dna it's even possible it doesn't lose its light, but i would guess that it only slows the process down

Plus there is the fact that they are the only ones with a DIFFERENT type of sharingan. Everybody else's has the ability to use amaterasu and susanoo et cetera, yet somehow these two are the only ones without them, but can also only use Kamui? Just seems weird.

shisui didn't have those abilities as far as we know. we also don't know if madara can use amaterasu or not and we don't know the extent of madara's MS powers. it makes sense for sasuke and itachi to have similar eyes since they are brothers

the sharingan is really lame.

it is in some regards, but i don't think so for the reasons you listed. i think so because of izanagi and izanami which simply don't make sense on just about every level

[SimplyAJ]

Well, we don't really know what all Shisui could use, which is true. The thing is, it just seems like the Sharingan got way overpowered in the terms of the "Three Great Dojustus" ya know? I mean the poor Byakugan is just left in the dust compared to the Sharingan and the Rinnegan. There are even times when the Sharingan seems better over all than the Rinnegan, but I'd blame that purely on what we've seen. Seeing as the Rinnegan is supposed to be able to let the user use ANY technic, and by that logic we should definitely have seen a lot more than we we got. Instead we saw the Six Paths thing. Twice.

Sasuke started going blind pretty fast though, so from what we've seen, it doesn't seem like the process is all that long. We had a small taste of it effecting Kakashi, but that was seemingly dropped after being mentioned. If anything, you would think that it would effect him more due to not being an Uchiha, but who knows.

As for Obito, I dunno, has it been really verified that he has Senju in him? Posing as Madara he has claimed that, he's claimed a lot that has yet to be verified. I dunno, maybe he does.

And yes, Izanagi and Izanami are ridiculous. So is the concept of implanting a bunch of EYES in your forearm and somehow having the ability to use the abilities in them. That was ... Painful to watch.

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

we don't know exactly how much each ninja used their MS. we don't know how much itachi or madara used theirs, but i can guarantee that it was a lot before they went blind. in kakashi's case, he hasn't really used it that much in comparison to what madara or itachi probably did. we also don't know how slowly it happens. kakashi did start feeling the effects of the blindness, but we have no measuring stick to know how long he has or how much he can use it before he goes blind in that eye. as for obito, he has used it a lot, but he not only has senju dna to help, we just don't know his level of blindness yet. with senju dna it's even possible it doesn't lose its light, but i would guess that it only slows the process down

shisui didn't have those abilities as far as we know. we also don't know if madara can use amaterasu or not and we don't know the extent of madara's MS powers. it makes sense for sasuke and itachi to have similar eyes since they are brothers

it is in some regards, but i don't think so for the reasons you listed. i think so because of izanagi and izanami which simply don't make sense on just about every level

but considering we were told that amaterasu plus tsukiyomi equals susanoo, is it safe to assume madara could use amaterasu? (or did i get that wrong)

[Dengar]

Isn't it implied that the Rinnegan has all of the Sharingan's abilities and then some?

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by SimplyAJ

Sasuke started going blind pretty fast though, so from what we've seen, it doesn't seem like the process is all that long. We had a small taste of it effecting Kakashi, but that was seemingly dropped after being mentioned. If anything, you would think that it would effect him more due to not being an Uchiha, but who knows.

yea that's true. sasuke did start going blind fast. i'm sure the light loss of MS is similar to each ninja's chakra level, in that kishi alters them to to fit the plot. still though, it could be explained that using susano'o puts a bigger load on the MS than say kamui or amaterasu. sasuke noted how painful it was to use susano'o and when itachi used it, he suffered the most, so it stands to reason that susano'o usage leads to the quickest blindness.

As for Obito, I dunno, has it been really verified that he has Senju in him? Posing as Madara he has claimed that, he's claimed a lot that has yet to be verified. I dunno, maybe he does.

not specifically, but we have seen several times that his body is made up of zetsu, which is senju dna essentially

Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime

but considering we were told that amaterasu plus tsukiyomi equals susanoo, is it safe to assume madara could use amaterasu? (or did i get that wrong)

we were told that a 3rd power awakened in both MS eyes by itachi. it wasn't contigent on amaterasu, it's its own power. madara may or not be able to use amaterasu. i kind of expect him to have kamui actually. that would explain how he is living in that pocket dimension as an old man, if that is indeed the kamui dimension. it would explain his quick arrival to obito and it would also imply that he is obito's direct ancestor which i assume still. plus it would make training obito to use kamui a lot easier if madara knew it already

Originally Posted by Dengar

Isn't it implied that the Rinnegan has all of the Sharingan's abilities and then some?

not too sure. madara is using MS techniques while using rinnegan, but nagato never did. it's a little convoluted and probably will never be explained fully. i would assume that the explanation for such a complex series of powers and different ninja would be worse to read than not having a concrete definition at all. like how the izanami/izanagi explanations just left more questions

[DarthDestroiar]

I dont know why people are ccomplaining this series are actually its taking directions one year ago i didnt expect. And the Tsunade thing its brutal, Madara is really the ultimate Badass villain of this series.

[Essenar]

I'm thinking that:
Sasuke and Itachi are descendants of Madara. That's the reason for similarities in Mangekyou Sharingan. And really, isn't it obvious at this point? Just look at the young Madara/Izuna pictures. At this point, we shouldn't even call it speculation but just accept it as Kishimoto's way of doing things.

So there's three distinct Mangekyou Sharingan abilities we've seen thus far:
1) Amaterasu/Tsukuyomi/Susanoo from the Madara/Sasuke/Itachi blood generation.
2) Kamui/Alternate Dimension from the Obito generation.
3) Kotoamatsukami from Shisui generation.

Other abilities are more or less just Uchiha specific like Izanagi and Izanami.