Toradora! - Episode 20 Discussion / Poll

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Freya

It doesn't lol. So there's no real reason to bitch about AmixRyuuji.

Unless Toradora pulls a Akane Iro ni Somarusaka

Or an Ichigo 100%. Or a SHUFFLE.

Though, to be fair, SHUFFLE made a little more sense. Honestly, who'd want to be Kaede's boyfriend? She's CRAZY.


Anyway, pretty good ep, though, as almost always, the concluding episode is going to be the really epic one.

I just kind of got a bad feeling out of this, somehow. Maybe it's because I don't see how they can resolve the coming conflict without it feeling kind of poorly done, at least to me.

Spoiler for upcoming event?:

I also don't see how Ryuuji can fall for Taiga at all, especially with the way the anime has adapted this...

8/10. Want to give it more, but that's all I feel it deserves. Probably the overall ranking this show is going to get from me, too...

Sigh. Man, I really wish this show was more like the books...

[roan]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Sigh. Man, I really wish this show was more like the books...

I think that's how everyone feels when their manga/novel/game isn't done by Kyoani....

But I still agree .

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by roan

I think that's how everyone feels when their manga/novel/game isn't done by Kyoani....

But I still agree .

Heck, I still wish most of KyoAni's adaptations were like the games/books.

Excepting Lucky Star which got heavily improved and Kanon which was just made of win.

I think half the reason I'm not enjoying this show as much is because I know how it ends, and the other half being I don't see how they can realistically end it like that without the subtle hints and informative internal monologues the books have.

[nor4d]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

I just kind of got a bad feeling out of this, somehow. Maybe it's because I don't see how they can resolve the coming conflict without it feeling kind of poorly done, at least to me.

You're not alone. Hard to say what will happen... I even don't know what i want by myself

[BetoJR]

Well, I've been spoiled about how the story might end recently (not by anyone's fault), and since then, I've no problem with the direction the anime's taking. Honestly, it can work, with all the hints going back towards the second or third episodes (also by the show's title, but who's counting that?).

Anyway, this one was quite the change of pace from the last. Minorin's back to acting all genki, probably feeling that "things are fine just as they are", but, as Ryuji pointedly realized, they cannot stay as they are. Next episode probably will have lots of teen angst, quite nicely hinted at here. And some people might be just a wee bit surprised as to the reason Ami looks so pissed at the previews - I know I look forward to it.

Taiga called Ryuji out for running away. But isn't that almost exactly what she is doing, at the moment? Quite the kettle calling the pot black, eh?

Ryuji is a quiet wreck waiting to happen. Would be funny if he cut/dyed his hair, tho.

All in all, a solid nine from me.

[wistfulloner]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

I think half the reason I'm not enjoying this show as much is because I know how it ends, and the other half being I don't see how they can realistically end it like that without the subtle hints and informative internal monologues the books have.

For the first half, its your problem, so I can't say anything.

As for the second half of your dislike: Why do you think novels and novels adapted to anime have to end in a perfectly realistic scenario? It's a work of fiction, and fiction doesn't become interesting by sticking to guidelines. If you read the novel, it's a bonus to you, but from the purely anime standpoint, it's up to you to interpret what it means, not for the novel to do that job.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by wistfulloner

As for the second half of your dislike: Why do you think novels and novels adapted to anime have to end in a perfectly realistic scenario? It's a work of fiction, and fiction doesn't become interesting by sticking to guidelines. If you read the novel, it's a bonus to you, but from the purely anime standpoint, it's up to you to interpret what it means, not for the novel to do that job.

The question is whether or not the anime can pull off what the novels have done. And even that's arguable because I really don't think Ryuuji's development in the novel is realistic either, but I haven't actually read that far so I'll stop there.

I'm not using the term "realistic" as in "real life", more like... "logical outcome"? "Natural development"? "A not-contrived, deus ex plotline"?

I'm just worried.

[BetoJR]

I, for one, think that the hinted-at end is the more logical outcome. I mean, c'mon... it's not like there haven't been moments when the characters themselves wondered about it.

[stormy001_M1A2]

I dunno if anyone noticed this but Taiga is becoming more and more human (she becomes more relaxed and spontaneous girl), becoming less and less cardboard tsundereko (like god awful ZnT pink hair chick) around Ryuji after the accidental catharsis in episode 19.

Here is the question, what are people looking for in this series? An affirmation of otaku troping stereotype that is in end; empty hokum or genuine bloom of human relationship which can be bittersweet but satisfying?

I see these 2 camps here in ToraDora!.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

I, for one, think that the hinted-at end is the more logical outcome. I mean, c'mon... it's not like there haven't been moments when the characters themselves wondered about it.

Only once in the anime, and NOT from Ryuuji, if I recall correctly.

What matters here isn't Taiga's feelings. It's Ryuuji's feelings, and...

Spoiler for logical outcome from events in anime, probable spoilers:

The logical outcome of all this, to me, would be that Taiga ends up forcing Ryuuji to ask out Minorin again, while finally showing Minorin that she doesn't need Ryuuji, and in the process getting over him herself. YAY GOOD END.

That's how the story would logically progress from this point, if you ask me. Bad end for Taiga, but oh well, she just needs to learn to look after herself.

Even if Ryuuji does find out about Taiga's true feelings, he (in the anime) has shown ABSOLUTELY NO romantic interest in her. Save perhaps one scene where he saw her in a swimsuit, and I really don't count that. Just hormones.

From what we've seen so far in the anime, Ryuuji would not choose Taiga over Minorin as a romantic decision, although if forced to choose between them as a general decision, he'd choose Taiga.

It's not romantic love, it's just devotion and caring. A different kind of love. He has no sexual or romantic interest in Taiga, and does not see her that way and I don't see him ever thinking of her that way without seeming horribly out of character.

Again, this is just from what the anime has done, although the 'hints' in the novels are far too subtle to really pick up on, (for me at least) especially to do with Ryuuji's feelings. It does help that they have a lot more physical contact in the books, however.

And that's pretty much my problem with the show right now, and why I'm probably not going to rate this as high as I would have otherwise.

It'll probably depend on the ending, as it usually does for me.


Now, someone prove me wrong.

[BetoJR]

I don't really differentiate between need and love. They all boil down to the same set of feelings, really. And Ryuji is attracted to Taiga - he does notice her in that way. He's also jealous of her, of people (specially men) paying her more attention than he cares for.
I can't pull scenes from the top of my head, but I remember noticing it in the anime, as well - not only in the novels. Anyway, it's probably just a matter of resolution. And it's getting kinda close.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

I don't really differentiate between need and love. They all boil down to the same set of feelings, really.

I really, really, really, don't think that. Dependency is not love. It's dependency. Love is really more about equality, and regardless of what the novels and anime say, I don't really feel Ryuuji and Taiga have EVER been equal. That is, I feel that what is shown and what is said are very different things. I've felt this from the beginning, about a lot of things in Toradora, and it's this feeling of continued dissonance that is making me like this show less and less.

"I need Ryuuji, therefore, I love Ryuuij"? Logical error. Logical error. Conclusion does not follow from premise. Logic error.

Originally Posted by BetoJR

And Ryuji is attracted to Taiga - he does notice her in that way. He's also jealous of her, of people (specially men) paying her more attention than he cares for.
I can't pull scenes from the top of my head, but I remember noticing it in the anime, as well - not only in the novels. Anyway, it's probably just a matter of resolution. And it's getting kinda close.

I've never seen it in the anime. I've seen him jealous, but never ATTRACTED to her. Not in the anime. Not really in the books either. It's more of a "Yeah, she's really pretty, but I heart Kushieda~"

I've never seen the "sexual tension" people are talking about, or the "friendship". All I've seen is an abusive, dependent, one-sided relationship, and this really, really disappoints me.

Yes, the relationship has become less abusive, and she's forcing it to become less dependent, but it's still one-sided.


Both Minorin and Taiga are, at this point, pushing Ryuuji in different directions, regardless of how he feels. And is how he feels EVER going to matter?

[BetoJR]

Actually, love is a co-dependent form of relationship. Equality and stuff is all nice and fluffy, but when it comes down to it, it's just a need to be close to someone you care about. But this is neither here nor there.

I, for one, believe they could only end up together. I would prefer Ryuji to end up with Ami (or even Minorin), but that's not how it's all shaping up to be - in my eyes. He won't be able to not feel his world coming out from under him when he finds out about Taiga's feelings - Minorin crush or no.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Actually, love is a co-dependent form of relationship. Equality and stuff is all nice and fluffy, but when it comes down to it, it's just a need to be close to someone you care about. But this is neither here nor there.

I really still think Taiga is really mistaking her feelings, and that one line really gives me a feeling of, to put it in emotional terms "WRONGWRONGFEELSICKWRONGBADWRONGWRONG".

So yeah. It just feels really, really wrong to me.

"I need him, so I love him"? What the hell?

Originally Posted by BetoJR

I, for one, believe they could only end up together. I would prefer Ryuji to end up with Ami (or even Minorin), but that's not how it's all shaping up to be - in my eyes. He won't be able to not feel his world coming out from under him when he finds out about Taiga's feelings - Minorin crush or no.

Of course it would break his world, but what would he do about it?

His feelings for her don't appear to be romantic in nature, though I don't deny that they're a kind of love... I just don't think he'd magically fall for her at all.

Why would he stop having romantic feelings for Minorin just because his "best friend" suddenly confessed to him? How is that supposed to work?

[physics223]

I'm going to be blunt and some people may be offended by my crassness, but I don't think there's any other way of stating this. Toradora is a show that is Yuyuko Takemiya's wish-fulfillment. It's not my wish fulfillment or yours. Realistically speaking, Ami would be the obvious choice. Who doesn't want a model who is both intelligent and mature?

But as some people pointed out, it's all fiction. Maybe Takemiya saw herself like Taiga when she was young. Maybe she failed to bag the guy so she decided to create a story where someone like Taiga gets the guy. Maybe it's like Atonement. It's shaping up to be like that. We won't know her reasons, but Toradora (if the title hasn't obviously stated it yet) will end between Ryuuji and Taiga. A lot of people commiserate with Ami because there has got to be no man existing who is as dense as Ryuuji. But he is.

Just deal with it, guys. I'm trying to, myself.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by physics223

I'm going to be blunt and some people may be offended by my crassness, but I don't think there's any other way of stating this. Toradora is a show that is Yuyuko Takemiya's wish-fulfillment. It's not my wish fulfillment or yours. Realistically speaking, Ami would be the obvious choice. Who doesn't want a model who is both intelligent and mature?

Now that's wish fulfillment.

Realistically speaking, it'd be Minorin. WHY? Because Ryuuji has had a crush on her from the very start of the show.

This isn't a shipper talking here. This is just looking at logical progression of narration, of which a Taiga ending IS NOT.

If it had more setup, if they were more obviously attracted to each other, sure. But they're isn't and they're not.


And, ultimately, it doesn't matter, because they're all just stupid kids with horrible pasts making really bad decisions that will get them into relationships that won't last past high school.

[physics223]

Ryuuji liked Minori even at the very beginning. Granted.

But I doubt any normal male, given a chance in going out with a model who's smart, mature, and young ... would turn that down. My point still stands - it's Takemiya's wish-fulfillment, not yours or mine.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by physics223

But I doubt any normal male, given a chance in going out with a model who's smart, mature, and young ... would turn that down. My point still stands - it's Takemiya's wish-fulfillment, not yours or mine.

Has Ami ever really asked him out? Has she ever been really overtly obvious about her attraction to him?

Remember, he still sees all her come-ons as simple teasing.

The viewers are lucky because they have an outside perspective. Try looking at it from Ryuuji's viewpoint.

Besides, Ryuuji isn't emotionally attracted to her anyway. Which is what really matters.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by physics223

But I doubt any normal male, given a chance in going out with a model who's smart, mature, and young ... would turn that down.

Actually, quite a lot of males do just that. Or do you think all the intelligent models fare all that well in their love lives? Case in point: Ryuji's first impression of her was pretty bad. And she doesn't really work all that hard to change it, if you care to see it.

[physics223]

My point still stands - it's Takemiya's wish-fulfillment, not yours or mine.

We can debate all night on who's the girl who Ryuuji would logically end up with, and still disagree. Besides, that's not the focus of my point. I bolded it in case it still confuses anyone what my central argument is. We know it's never going to be Taiga that Ryuuji's going to end up with, at least, and we agree upon that.

Among the three, Taiga would be the least likely Ryuuji would end up with - if this were not wish-fulfillment.