(CR) Sousou no Frieren (Frieren: Beyond Journey's End)

[Kazu-kun]

I see no problems with Methode being an all-rounder with several different capabilities. There's no rule that says only Frieren gets to have many abilities. If anything, I want more mages like Methode to show up.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by ryllharu

You seem to be countering with points that I'm not bringing up?

Ubel clearly stated she didn't hold back enough. The test itself is unfair, not her performance. She didn't argue over her disqualification. She states exactly that to Sense.

What I did say is that Ubel's entire cohort was given a purposefully unfair test, designed to make more of them fail with its restrictive rules. Take the emotion out and read my responses, please.

You said this:

Originally Posted by ryllharu;6573445[B

]They deliberately limited the type of spells the examinees could use[/B], under the excuse that it was to protect the other examinees. The magic association had zero doubts about Burg's safety. The test was designed to make mages with powerful magic, like we've seen the entire time in both tests this year, unable to use their full potential to get him to take a step back.

Originally Posted by ryllharu

Of all the abilities we've seen them use that could move Burg, all of them would have not been allowed to use them, "for the safety of the other examinees".

Which is why I countered that they're free to use any spell they want as long as they adjust the output, which is something Richter, Frieren, and Fern all know how to do.

What kind of situation are you imagining where potential second-class mages are so strong that even holding back their strength wouldn't have prevented their spells from being lethal? Do you think they're packing a killing curse Avada Kadavra?

Originally Posted by ryllharu

The more recent takeaway from this discussion that I'm asking you to be receptive towards is that Frieren (the series) has exceptionally loose lore. There's huge gaps in the series composition, that are nearly seamlessly backfilled. That's not a bad thing. But it does show that the series was never particularly well-planned from the beginning. Lots of series aren't. What Frieren (the series) is good at is making it seem like it is well-planned, by keeping recently introduced concepts vague, then expanding on them later. There's some very clear contradictions concerning many details of the series' setting.

I'm also not saying anything I'm speculating is true. I'm pointing out that if the series doesn't explicitly state it, it can't be used as rationale in a discussion, because its lore is so open-ended and very frequently backfilled. It doesn't have a consistent magic system. It doesn't even have rules for its magic system. The politics of the world is basically made up as the main party go along. This isn't negative criticism. But don't try to extrapolate beyond what the series verbally states or shows. Because it has changed as the series has gone along.

The criticism I do have is almost entirely restricted to THIS arc and THESE new characters. Because I don't think this arc or the new side characters are as consistent, well composed, and the writing just isn't as good, as everything that proceeded it.

Your valid point about the series being loose with its lore is muddied by the fact that you do in fact extrapolate beyond what the series states or shows.

Moving Berg is a non-issue. Even Ubel herself doesn't think she was treated unfairly, so I don't understand how you think this is the hill to die on.

There's plenty of other valid points you could have brought up, like Flamme originally being characterized as vengence-driven and focused on combat magic to fight demons to now being the most well-known leader of all mages who loves all kinds of magic.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by ryllharu

I'm also not saying anything I'm speculating is true. I'm pointing out that if the series doesn't explicitly state it, it can't be used as rationale in a discussion, because its lore is so open-ended and very frequently backfilled. It doesn't have a consistent magic system. It doesn't even have rules for its magic system. The politics of the world is basically made up as the main party go along. This isn't negative criticism. But don't try to extrapolate beyond what the series verbally states or shows. Because it has changed as the series has gone along.

For whatever it's worth, this is an untenable position for a discussion. Obviously there are some things we do not know, and the author does sometimes "conveniently" reveal this info when needed to progress the plot, which we can certainly argue is a writing flaw. But, as viewers, we still have to make some assumptions about the consistency of the world as shown based on what we know to this point.

Plus, you're presenting a double standard here. You are free to speculate whatever you want ("but I'm not saying it's true!"), but if anyone tries to argue that it's logically inconsistent, you can just stubbornly say "where does the story prove that?" so absolutely any inference anyone else makes is suspect, but your own inferences are beyond reproach. This is illogical and self-serving. ("I'm saying the world is illogical, so any attempts to use logic against me are automatically out." Brilliant!)

And then when people call you out for this bad faith discussion tactic, you complain about being "personally attacked." No, you just throw out suspect conjecture, and dismiss anyone else's conjecture as inadmissible. So what is even the point of discussing anything? You are just wasting everyone's time.

To be able to have a discussion about anything in fiction, you have to accept certain ground rules, and that includes that everyone is equally permitted to make inferences based on what is shown, even though the story may end up proving those inferences wrong in the future by newly-introduced information. So you need to stop being so combative every time someone uses reasonable logic to counter your conjecture, or otherwise you just need to stop discussing on this forum because you're poisoning the conversation.

If you wish to discuss this further with me, you're welcome to send me a PM, but please do not derail this thread any further.

[Liddo-kun]

forgot to say this..

I know they're doing the dungeon clear for the test... but I think everyone who reached the bottom deserve a little share of the gold and treasures there? As far as I know, only Denken is a rich guy there... maybe Ehre is also rich because of her parents. But the others would want some of the money.

[ChronoReverse]

Originally Posted by Liddo-kun

forgot to say this..

I know they're doing the dungeon clear for the test... but I think everyone who reached the bottom deserve a little share of the gold and treasures there? As far as I know, only Denken is a rich guy there... maybe Ehre is also rich because of her parents. But the others would want some of the money.

Fern better take charge of their share or Frieren will frivolously use it up! This would neatly solve their current funds problem.

[Shadow5YA]

Lawine comes from a a noble family and has brothers in the Association.

Nothing was mentioned about Ehre's parents, but her grandfather is one of the first-class mages.

Frieren is not likely to take more than what's necessary for her party to survive. Most of the time she prefers grimoires and magical items.

[TURI123456]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Lawine comes from a a noble family and has brothers in the Association.

Nothing was mentioned about Ehre's parents, but her grandfather is one of the first-class mages.

Frieren is not likely to take more than what's necessary for her party to survive. Most of the time she prefers grimoires and magical items.

Ehre isn't from a very rich family her home is in a village at least it was.
And don't you give a spoiler here?

About the dungeon treasures it seems like Frieren wanted to take a few things that she found and she was trying to open the treasure boxes (in front of Sense and Fern that didn't say a thing about it) so I think that they can take things with them but not too much.

[magnuskn]

YouTube

https://youtu.be/Y1DpzDFQ96w

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

[Mad Pierrot]

[Frontier]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

YouTube

https://youtu.be/Y1DpzDFQ96w

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

I love how Kanne immediately assumes Lawine is going to attack her .

Fern seems kind of bummed out next to Stark there .

Serie appears .

[TURI123456]

Among the examinees who do you think will over to the exam and become a First-Class Mage and who not?

[Frontier]

Some things never change for Stark, whether it be an old dude constantly teaching Stark all he knows about martial arts or Fern pouting the first moment she sees him .

Well, yeah, if her staff was a precious gift from Heiter, no wonder Fern wouldn't take it well when Frieren said they should just replace it with a new one. Not that it stops Frieren from trying to get it fixed once she realizes how important it is to Fern .

Well, sucks Lawine didn't move onto the 3rd exam, but at least she can still get headpats from her girlfriend Kanne! And neither of them passed in the end so ...

Denken and Laufen show up at Richter's job to console him, Laufen even offering him up a donut (she had already chewed on), and while Richter isn't receptive and is even more surly than usual, Denken sees in Richter his younger self and knows he'll have much more opportunities to improve and pass in the future !

(Though what is Laufen and Denken's relationship? She follows him around and it seems like they've been together longer than just for the exam ).

Ha! Of course Frieren would doubt Richter's ability to make him fix the staff, and even he can appreciate how it's a well-cared for and precious staff...which makes it all the more significant when Fern sees it again and realized what Frieren did for her .

Serie is not happy about all the people who passed the test. Not because she disagrees with better cooperation between mages, but most of them only passed because of Frieren and Fern, so they may not truly be qualified to be 1st class mages. Which means she and her flying cape are going to assess them personally .

So Lernen was the first 1st class mage and one of Serie's personal students? He's also the only one who was able to notice the fluctuations of Frieren hiding her mana...even though he never noticed it in his own master. Which just makes Serie disappointed that he's nearing the end of his life and make her question why she bothers training humans .

This seems like a really nice and tranquil exam...oh, Kanne failed. And Laufen. And Scharf. And Ehre. And Dunst. Yikes .

Frieren and Serie finally reunite and it's a quick and to the point meeting as Serie fails her, because Frieren's favorite spell is still the flower spell she learned from Flamme. But no matter what Serie thinks of her, it's that spell that lead her to join up with Himmel (because she showed it to him when he was a child and made him love magic, which is why he recruited her) and together they were able to beat the Demon King .

Fern actually noticed Serie's fluctuations! And Serie finally sees another human she's willing to train, though Serie wants none of that. But that's enough to pass her in Series eye .

[Liddo-kun]

episode 27:

congrats. Fern is now a first class mage.

sad for the others though.. they survived hell in the second exam only to be failed here.

and Richter is really skilled for fixing Fern's staff that got trashed.

just one more episode. Gonna miss this anime.

[nojay]

Originally Posted by Frontier

Which means she and her flying cape are going to assess them personally .

The cape was put on Serie's shoulders by Sense's hair.

I like Serie as a character, she is otherworldly and not human in a way that most works of fiction never manage to convey. Frieren has spent too much time becoming emotionally involved with humans and she is no longer one hundred percent elf unlike the (deliberately?) aloof Serie who holds everyone at arm's length.

Fern can eat and pout at the same time. Is there no end to this first-class-mage's talents?

[ChronoReverse]

In hindsight I should've figured it out before being told from the themes of Frieren but it still was a surprise moment for me finding out

Spoiler:

that the demon king saw through Frieren's mana suppression at first glance

It's particularly poignant point to me since we also find out that

Spoiler:

Serie is better at mana suppression than Frieren. It all makes sense now why Frieren was the one who would defeat the demon king.

[frubam]

What is the significance of Serie's fluctuating mana?

[kari-no-sugata II]

Originally Posted by frubam

What is the significance of Serie's fluctuating mana?

Strictly speaking, we don't know - it could be interpreted as a result of mana suppression but I think it's better to keep an open mind on it.

[Ragashingo]

Originally Posted by frubam

What is the significance of Serie's fluctuating mana?

Unless someone has outside info, my guess is that all these near-1st class mages who are stunned at Serie's vast mana are still only noticing the smallest fraction of her true power because she suppresses it like Frieren.

Yet another wonderful episode. I am, once again, surprised at how good this show is even though basically nothing happened. It's because it took its time to build these characters piece by tiny piece that I'm just as happy to watch them talk and be disappointed in each other as I am watching them blast at each other with spectacular magic that hasn't been seen in hundred of years.

All in all, I think Serie made the right choices. Only maybe two or three of those that passed the second test had any actual right to be 1st Class mages. A lot of them, like Lawine, simply got lucky to be on a team that was going to win anyway.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by frubam

What is the significance of Serie's fluctuating mana?

Falsch showed that mana normally fluctuates when you're suppressing it, unless you're so good at it that other people don't notice.

The implication is that Fern could see through that.

[Kazu-kun]

It has been long established that mana grows with years of training. Serie seems considerably older than Frieren, as she was already considered a great mage when Frieren just started her training. This means her mana must be way bigger than Freiren's. But according to Lernen, Frieren and Serie's mana look similar in size. The obvious conclusion here is that Serie must be suppressing her mana, hence the fluctuations.

And she's better at it than Frieren, because the fluctuations in her mana are harder to detect.

We can only imagine how big her unsuppressed mana must be. What a terrifying mage despite being so petty and tsundere. lol