Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[Nerroth]

When it comes to how Sakura might be helped after a not-HF route, there is the possibility that while Rin and/or Shirou are in London, they might either find a way to deal with the situation themselves, or (through making new contacts while there, perhaps through Waver) run into someone who can.

If one assumes that Rin will want to go back to Japan now and then to make house calls - or perhaps to maintain the whole 'Tohsaka fiefdom' deal over Fuyuki-shi.


For my own part, one - well, one and another-in-progress - of my longer fics is set after UBW-Good, and looks into just such a scenario - so yeah, I suppose I would say something like that, wouldn't I?


In any event, there's a whole load of time left (as yet) unexplored when it comes to the characters' lives, in almost every timeline shown to exist - indeed, you could argue that Fate/Zero is an example of how to flesh the wider setting out, in one direction at least.

In principle, the thought of picking one or more spokes upon the Kaleidoscope and tracing a way down to a new entry in the wider setting, is not so unreasonable.


But then, as a would-be fic writer, I suppose I'd say that too! (Though I would use the caveat that there are so many options from the Kaleidoscope that you could have many different stories stemming from a common series of events - say, the UBW-Good ending I mentioned - and not have them trip over each other. So, a reader could take or leave whichever timeline they wish.)

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Nerroth

When it comes to how Sakura might be helped after a not-HF route, there is the possibility that while Rin and/or Shirou are in London, they might either find a way to deal with the situation themselves, or (through making new contacts while there, perhaps through Waver) run into someone who can.

Well, yeah, it's quite possible. I've struggled with trying to work out ways for them to actually do it, though. The biggest issue, actually, is getting them to find out (barring something like a random telepath just happening to accidentally look into her mind ), because Sakura sure as hell isn't going to tell them, and Rin isn't likely to look deeply enough into it to find out. Plus, they have to discover it in a way that doesn't lead to them charging in there and getting themselves killed....

If one assumes that Rin will want to go back to Japan now and then to make house calls - or perhaps to maintain the whole 'Tohsaka fiefdom' deal over Fuyuki-shi.

Well, she has to admit to herself that she actually cares about Sakura first (and she has to tell Shirou the truth, of course). I'd imagine she'd end up telling him at some point, though, and there's no doubt in my mind that he'd try to reconcile them in that case.

In any event, there's a whole load of time left (as yet) unexplored when it comes to the characters' lives, in almost every timeline shown to exist

Well, yeah. The problem is that Zouken is a real bitch to kill, especially if you want Sakura to come out of it unharmed. And, of course, they have to find out first....

I guess I'm just too pessimistic....

But then, as a would-be fic writer, I suppose I'd say that too!

Well, I am a fanfic writer too (in theory...), although I'm far better at coming up with random ideas and chapters from the middle of the sequel than I am at actually solving the problems with my main fic....

(Though I would use the caveat that there are so many options from the Kaleidoscope that you could have many different stories stemming from a common series of events - say, the UBW-Good ending I mentioned - and not have them trip over each other. So, a reader could take or leave whichever timeline they wish.)

Well, of course. I've actually thought up one that follows from UBW Good, although I'm pretty damn sure you'd absolutely hate the premise (although, hopefully, not the final outcome).

[Nerroth]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Well, yeah, it's quite possible. I've struggled with trying to work out ways for them to actually do it, though. The biggest issue, actually, is getting them to find out (barring something like a random telepath just happening to accidentally look into her mind :P), because Sakura sure as hell isn't going to tell them, and Rin isn't likely to look deeply enough into it to find out. Plus, they have to discover it in a way that doesn't lead to them charging in there and getting themselves killed....

Now, why do I get the feeling that you and I know each other on a certain other forum?

And 'random', eh? Oh, dear...

Well, she has to admit to herself that she actually cares about Sakura first (and she has to tell Shirou the truth, of course). I'd imagine she'd end up telling him at some point, though, and there's no doubt in my mind that he'd try to reconcile them in that case.

There's plenty of time for that to happen - with or without outside help.

Although, one thing which would be interesting is what might happen if Saber ever talks about her experiences with young Ilya prior to the 4th War...

Well, yeah. The problem is that Zouken is a real bitch to kill, especially if you want Sakura to come out of it unharmed. And, of course, they have to find out first....

I guess I'm just too pessimistic....

Oh ye of little faith.

But then, if your deity's not forty metres tall, parked in the middle of a subterranean crystalline valley of some sort, while being mysterious to the point of not being covered overly much in pre-existing published fiction, it's no wonder!

Well, I am a fanfic writer too (in theory...), although I'm far better at coming up with random ideas and chapters from the middle of the sequel than I am at actually solving the problems with my main fic....

There are only so many ways to say 'do what you can', you know!

Well, of course. I've actually thought up one that follows from UBW Good, although I'm pretty damn sure you'd absolutely hate the premise (although, hopefully, not the final outcome).

Just as well I have my own to work on, then!

[GDB]

Sorry to Sakura fans, but she's pretty much screwed outside of HF. But really, that's the case for quite a few characters. Ilya gets screwed in all non-Fate routes. Shinji gets screwed in all non-UBW routes, and even then gets messed up something fierce.

So really, the only ones who come out fine in all routes are Rin and Shirou, and even then Shirou gets messed up in HF. Saber kind of pulls through with a 2/3 ratio.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Nerroth

Now, why do I get the feeling that you and I know each other on a certain other forum?

Because we do....

Well, unless there happen to be two Sakura fans who go by the name "Nerroth" and write post-UBW fanfics about saving Sakura, anyway....

And 'random', eh? Oh, dear...

I was only joking....

There's plenty of time for that to happen - with or without outside help.

Well, true. I don't see Rin not mentioning it to Shirou at some point, and I don't see Shirou just letting it slide if she does, so something will happen eventually.

Although, one thing which would be interesting is what might happen if Saber ever talks about her experiences with young Ilya prior to the 4th War...

How would this help?

There are only so many ways to say 'do what you can', you know!

Yeah, unfortunately, I'm in the annoying position where I've written a decent chuck of the sequel, have worked out the plot wonderfully and am really interested in it, but I can't get around the problem with the backstory for my original fic, despite being stuck with it for about 6 months now....

Just as well I have my own to work on, then!

Yeah....

Well, mine is more of a practical "what's the best way of saving her" kind of thing, rather than an idealised "perfect scenario" (although she will, of course, end up being happy at the end). But, it does come at a bit of a cost, unfortunately....

Originally Posted by GDB

Sorry to Sakura fans, but she's pretty much screwed outside of HF.

The thing is, we don't actually know that, because there's no information whatsoever about what happens to her. But, I don't see Rin just forgetting about her, especially in UBW where Shirou will encourage them to reunite. It's also possible that Rin will work out what has happened to her as she learns more about magic. Plus, Zouken's original plan is shot to pieces by Waver dismantling the Grail, so he's got to do something. God-knows what he'll try, but I can't imagine Rin not ending up getting involved, given that he's living on her land and using her sister as his pawn.

There's simply not enough information to say conclusively "Sakura is screwed outside of HF". Of course, there's not enough information to say that she's going to be perfectly fine either, which is what is so damn infuriating about her situation outside of HF, especially since she could quite easily drag Shirou and Rin down with her if they manage to make a complete mess of the rescue attempt.

But really, that's the case for quite a few characters.

Yeah, but the other characters just die. Sakura spends the rest of her life being tortured by Zouken, and in UBW she doesn't even have Shirou to lean on any more....

Ilya gets screwed in all non-Fate routes.

Actually, Ilya gets screwed in all routes, because she dies in a year's time no matter what.

Shinji gets screwed in all non-UBW routes, and even then gets messed up something fierce.

Yeah, but Shinji deserves it. And, you can hardly claim he gets screwed in HF. If you decide to rape your mentally-unstable and exceptionally powerful adoptive sister (for the God-knows-how-manyth time), then you deserve everything you damn well get. He didn't get screwed in HF, he got Karmic justice for all the years of abuse he put Sakura through.

So really, the only ones who come out fine in all routes are Rin and Shirou, and even then Shirou gets messed up in HF.

Shirou is just fine in HF True. He has a wonderful and utterly devoted girlfriend, lots of hot sex and he can live perfectly normally. I'd say that's a pretty damn good life, actually. So what if his body is slightly imperfect? It's not like the cure is something he's going to want to avoid anyway.... HF Normal, of course, he's dead, so no argument there....

Saber kind of pulls through with a 2/3 ratio.

Saber is OK(ish) in Fate and (maybe) in UBW True, and pretty well-off in UBW Good.

[Nerroth]

Originally Posted by GDB

Sorry to Sakura fans, but she's pretty much screwed outside of HF.

Respectfully, I don't care to leave it at that - in the untold range of alternate universes out there, there has to be room for at least a few where something can be done.

Of course, I'm hardly unbiased in saying that... but there it is.

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Because we do....

Well, unless there happen to be two Sakura fans who go by the name "Nerroth" and write post-UBW fanfics about saving Sakura, anyway....

You found out about my Shattered Glass alternate? Crap.

I was only joking....

I figured as much!

Well, true. I don't see Rin not mentioning it to Shirou at some point, and I don't see Shirou just letting it slide if she does, so something will happen eventually.

Possibly.

How would this help?

I didn't say it would help - but I suppose the principle of the bond between the members of the group involved being perhaps strengthened by getting through the issue would be at least indirectly beneficial for the matter at hand.

And even if it didn't, the drama potential is there, depending on how well (or not) Shirou might take such a revelation.

Yeah, unfortunately, I'm in the annoying position where I've written a decent chuck of the sequel, have worked out the plot wonderfully and am really interested in it, but I can't get around the problem with the backstory for my original fic, despite being stuck with it for about 6 months now....

Maybe try to write something else entirely? You never know what kind of tangents the simple act of story creation might provide.

(I've certainly had ideas bounce from one setting to another, in some shape or form.)

Yeah....

Well, mine is more of a practical "what's the best way of saving her" kind of thing, rather than an idealised "perfect scenario" (although she will, of course, end up being happy at the end).

I didn't say anything about a perfect scenario - there can be no such thing.

You do the best you can, and hope it's enough.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Nerroth

Maybe try to write something else entirely? You never know what kind of tangents the simple act of story creation might provide.

(I've certainly had ideas bounce from one setting to another, in some shape or form.)

Well, I have been writing other stuff. I've got loads of stories on my computer, actually (I think I've got 6 or 7 that I've written at least something for). But, I can never seem to get any of them into a form where I can actually put any of them up.

The problem with trying this for my backstory, though, is that what I need to happen there (for the story to function) is almost the exact opposite of what I want to happen in every other fic I write. I've also kind of hemmed myself in by writing large parts of the story (some of which include elements of the backstory) before actually finalising the backstory itself, only to discover that what I thought would work as an idea actually doesn't.

I didn't say anything about a perfect scenario - there can be no such thing.

You do the best you can, and hope it's enough.

Well, no, of course. I was thinking more of the fact that you introduce a guy who is perfect for Sakura, with just the right powers needed to save her (not that I'm attacking your story, of course). Admittedly, I intend to do something similarish, but I actually have a good reason why this guy would know Shirou, Rin and Saber, plus I intend the powers needed to save her to come from his contacts rather than necessarily from the guy himself.

[Nerroth]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Well, I have been writing other stuff. I've got loads of stories on my computer, actually (I think I've got 6 or 7 that I've written at least something for). But, I can never seem to get any of them into a form where I can actually put any of them up.

The problem with trying this for my backstory, though, is that what I need to happen there (for the story to function) is almost the exact opposite of what I want to happen in every other fic I write. I've also kind of hemmed myself in by writing large parts of the story (some of which include elements of the backstory) before actually finalising the backstory itself, only to discover that what I thought would work as an idea actually doesn't.

Look, ultimately, even if you feel that your stories you have aren't ready, you may find it worth your while to at least post one of them, somewhere.

Even say 'this is a work-in-progress, please advise accordingly' or something.

The longer you leave it without posting anything, the more Sisyphean that burden will feel.

Trust me on this.

(Of course, I really ought to be more 'physician, heal thyself' with that, too.)

Well, no, of course. I was thinking more of the fact that you introduce a guy who is perfect for Sakura, with just the right powers needed to save her (not that I'm attacking your story, of course). Admittedly, I intend to do something similarish, but I actually have a good reason why this guy would know Shirou, Rin and Saber, plus I intend the powers needed to save her to come from his contacts rather than necessarily from the guy himself.

I don't want to go into too many details here, since this is not a fanfic thread - but that is not how it happens, not least since he did not act alone. (And he certainly wouldn't have made some of the later decisions he ended up making, were he 'perfect for her'. Again, perfect is impossible, not to mention implausible - you do what you can.)


By the way, there is a fanfic thread here, too - lest things go too far into derailing the point of this particular thread.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Nerroth

Look, ultimately, even if you feel that your stories you have aren't ready, you may find it worth your while to at least post one of them, somewhere.

The problem is that they're not "not ready", they're not even written. Or, rather, the beginning isn't written, even if the middle or the ending are.

Even say 'this is a work-in-progress, please advise acordingly' or something.

Yeah, the problem is that I don't feel very comfortable doing that, especially after what happened with my last fic. Having made a total mess of that, I don't like posting anything until I've got the plot, backstory etc. worked out to the point that I can be sure I'm not going to need to change the whole thing.

The longer you leave it without posting anything, the more Sisyphean that burden will feel.

Yeah, I've noticed....

I don't want to go into too many details here, since this is not a fanfic thread - but that is not how it happens, not least since he did not act alone.

Yeah, I know. I have read the fic, remember....

(And he certainly wouldn't have made some of the later decisions he ended up making, were he 'perfect for her'. Again, perfect is impossible, not to mention implausible - you do what you can.)

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that, though. I can't think of any such decisions off the top of my head.... Admittedly, I haven't read it for a while.

[Nerroth]

As edited into the last post, there is a fanfic thread for talking about some of that stuff (where I'd still prefer to make use of the spoiler function, in case anyone ever feels the inclination to read it for themselves). I don't want to go too far into such a discussion here, where people interested in the game (and not necessarily in some Irish guy's crazy story ideas) would want to be involved in.


But before I call a halt to my line of reasoning here for now, I will say this:

Write something, and post it.

It can be an entirely different timeline altogether. It may be a snapshot from this or that time period on a timeline you're already working over. It may be a collection of bullet points and idea fragments you'd like to ask for help with.

But it's better than nothing.


Really.

[orangejuicetang]

Originally Posted by Nerroth

Now, why do I get the feeling that you and I know each other on a certain other forum?

I'll be honest, I laughed when I read this. Partly because I can't believe I didn't realize it for so long. And partly because the 'a certain other' reminded me of the 'tu aru no' series. Which made me imagine what a 'tu aru no type-moon forum' would be like, but that is neither here no there.

[Nerroth]

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

I'll be honest, I laughed when I read this. Partly because I can't believe I didn't realize it for so long. .

I'd say it might count as a Beast's Lair reunion... but can you have a reunion when you're still active on the place you're re-union-ing from?

I wonder.

[orangejuicetang]

Originally Posted by Nerroth

I'd say it might count as a Beast's Lair reunion... but can you have a reunion when you're still active on the place you're re-union-ing from?

I wonder.

I'm still hitting myself for not realizing it sooner. I mean, in hindsight, looking at his posts, it's just so obvious who he was. Why didn't I realize it sooner!?

[Keroko]

About Zouken, it's been a while since I played but wasn't there a part in HF where Zouken talks with... I think it's with true assasin... that he isn't truly immortal and is hanging on by a thread? Combine that with the suggestion that he's dead in UBW, and Shinji's change-of-heart in that route (for which there is no reason if Zouken still loves) that looks like a happy-ending for Sakura.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Keroko

About Zouken, it's been a while since I played but wasn't there a part in HF where Zouken talks with... I think it's with true assasin... that he isn't truly immortal and is hanging on by a thread?

Yeah, but he also says in HF that his original plan was to turn Sakura into a Grail gradually over the next several decades, and then use either her or her descendants in the next Grail War. He's going to die eventually, yeah (because his soul is decaying), but he's got another 60 years left at least, which is more than enough to ensure Sakura is screwed if he so desires.

Bear in mind that Zouken didn't expect there to be a Grail War at this time, and that, outside of HF, he didn't get involved because he expected to have another chance. If he knew this was his last shot (as him dying shortly after the war would imply) then he would have gone all-out for this war. At absolute minimum, he'd have summoned TA and got himself involved, and he may have even attempted to force Sakura to fight (because he's got nothing to lose). Similarly, he says in Fate/Zero that he has another chance for the war in 60 years, which wouldn't be true if he was going to die shortly after FSN.

Combine that with the suggestion that he's dead in UBW

The thing is, if he could be killed as easily as he (supposedly) is in UBW, then HF would have been a 3-day-long route. Seriously, in HF, he gets cut in half by Archer, has his body exorcised and has his main worm pulled out of Sakura's heart and crushed, and he's still not dead. If he can survive all of that, I don't for the life of me see how he could have died in UBW without Gil even trying (unfortunately).

Shinji's change-of-heart in that route (for which there is no reason if Zouken still loves)

Shinji isn't nasty to Sakura because of Zouken, he's nasty to Sakura because he's a selfish prick with a massive inferiority complex that she sets off big time (by having the audacity to get herself raped by Zouken's worms for eight years and, thus, become the Matou heir...). Zouken may have helped push him in that direction, but Shinji abuses Sakura of his own will, not because Zouken orders him to. True, without Zouken around, he most probably couldn't abuse her (because Zouken makes it pretty much impossible for her to fight back), but he most certainly wouldn't have to be nice to her, like he seemingly is in UBW.

The reason he's nice in UBW is either because he's genuinely changed (because the events at the end of UBW scared him into realising what a dick he was), or else because he's simply too weak to abuse her at that point....

that looks like a happy-ending for Sakura.

Well, even if Zouken is dead, which seems pretty unlikely, it's not really a happy ending for her. Her sister has run off with the boy she loves to London, leaving alone in Fuyuki with her only company being the boy who raped and abused her for three years, and she's going to have serious psychological problems that she can't even talk to anyone about, because no-one other than Shinji (who isn't exactly likely to be helpful, given that he caused quite a few of them) even knows what she's been through.

[Keroko]

That actually brings me to another point, and I believe I asked this before but I've forgotten when or where, but proof of Zouken's death may be that he didn't move at all in the other routes. I mean, living inside Sakura means that he knew of Shirou and knew that he held a pretty manipulation toy in his hand. Why didn't he move?

Only answer I can think of is 'because he's dead.'

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Keroko

That actually brings me to another point, and I believe I asked this before but I've forgotten when or where, but proof of Zouken's death may be that he didn't move at all in the other routes. I mean, living inside Sakura means that he knew of Shirou and knew that he held a pretty manipulation toy in his hand. Why didn't he move?

Only answer I can think of is 'because he's dead.'

You asked me precisely the same question less than a month ago on this very thread, and I answered it then. In fact, it's only one page back....

The simple answer is that there's nothing that would kill him, and no time when he could reasonably have died. The events of FSN don't make any sense unless he's alive up until at least the very beginning of Fate (because Sakura wouldn't have bothered to even summon a servant if he were dead) and up until day 5 or 6 of UBW (because he rings Shirou's house to tell Sakura to come home).

If you believe that his vital status varies between routes, then that means that whether he is alive or dead is decided by whether Shirou decides to walk Sakura home and then cook an extra dish the morning afterwards and, even more absurdly, on whether Shirou stops Saber from attacking Archer (since he's alive until day 5 of UBW at least). The game simply doesn't work that way. The only things that change in FSN are those things that are changed (directly or indirectly) by your decisions.

His reasons for not acting in Fate and UBW are explained (implicitly, at least) in HF. In simple terms, outside of HF he couldn't manage to find anything to activate and trigger Sakura's dark side (because he didn't realise just how much she cared about Shirou, and how much she feared what Rin might do to him), and thus he was forced just to let Shinji have Rider and plan for the next war (since he never had any expectation of Shinji actually winning).

[Keroko]

Blar, my memory is flunky. Sorry about that.

But if he was living within Sakura for... well, practically the whole time, how could he not see how much Sakura cares for Shirou? Sakura doesn't exactly drop the must subtlest of hints (a testimony to Shirou's thickness, but that aside) to us readers, so I find myself wondering how someone who watches Sakura 24/7 doesn't know this.

[GDB]

Unless he has multiple consciousnesses, I would assume he only switches over to monitor Sakura when he needs to. Otherwise, he's paying attention to what's going on around his physical body.

[Cherry_Lover]

From what I can tell, he can monitor where Sakura is, but I don't think he's capable of monitoring what she's doing or saying, at least not completely. After all, his crest worms don't have ears (and, even if he can hear through his main worm, it's buried inside her chest), and her mind is too strong for him to control it. He can probably pick up some details (if she was, for example, running, he might be able to work that out from her heartbeat), but I don't think he can hear everything she's saying, and he certainly can't see what she sees. That's enough to ensure that she can't run away (and he's mentally conditioned her to obey him and (probably) to distrust Rin, plus he's made it obvious (with Kariya, for example) what would happen to anyone who tries to save her if they fail, so she's unlikely to be able to go and seek help), but it's not enough for him to work out how close she is to Shirou.

Judging by the way she speaks about it in HF, Sakura seems to be under the impression that she's fooled him by claiming that she needs to observe Shirou as a potential master, even though she knows that he's not a proper magus (since she's seen him practicing), which simply couldn't be true if he knew everything that she said or heard.