[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[Renall]

Originally Posted by ijriims

About Kyrie not giving Rudolf money, why did she have to do so if she knew Rudolf was probably going to die on Rokkenjima , or he and his sibling would find the 10tons gold?

He doesn't have to die. He can become the head of the family. If he's not in financial danger, he "wins" over his siblings. There's no point in killing him. There's no point in killing anyone. The only reason that could possibly make Kyrie kill everyone is "she's insane." That's ridiculous.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

Well in the end a lot of people, no everyone just dismiss whole scenes as complete lies. For example they deny that Shannon ever loved George or that Jessica's love for Kanon is also just a lie that Kyrie is happy with Rudolph, thatshe loves ange etc. A lot of stuff is just discared in most theories.

There was a scene in Episode 6 where Tohya said that most readers had started ignoring everything she wrote that wasn't in red ink. She thanked Ange for having the consideration to read the words she'd written in black ink too.

To me, this looks a plea to understand why each scene was presented in white text. Even fantasy scenes have an intent behind them. You're free to interpret Beato's ranting on the telephone in Episode 4 as a fantasy, but that doesn't absolve you of the responsibility of understanding what she was trying to convey to Battler through that fantasy.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Renall

He doesn't have to die. He can become the head of the family. If he's not in financial danger, he "wins" over his siblings. There's no point in killing him. There's no point in killing anyone. The only reason that could possibly make Kyrie kill everyone is "she's insane." That's ridiculous.

I suppose you don't really get my stance. I was talking about Kyrie being Beatrice as well as the mastermind behind all murders (except EP2). Her motive was to give a chance for the Ushiromiya family to unite again and get the gold or to perish (and through this, Sumadera family got all the fortune). She setup all the letters-in-bottle, epitaph letters, bank card, and the final explosion (with the help of Shannon, who sympathize with Kyrie's cause and Genji, who was working under the will of Kinzo).

WHo said that she killed people because she was crazy. Don't you get that the whole Umineko was talking about family bonds. Don't you see that Beatrice was acting as a judge on Ushiromiya family from the beginning. Can't you see that everything Beatrice urging the Ushiromiya family to do was to solve the epitaph and took everyone to take refuge in Kwadorian? Can't you see that Beatrice made a promise with Maria to take her to Golden Land and such that she had to implement her promise no matter what?

Damned. Why were people still saying Battler's sin was forgetting the white horse promise, saying George murdered the whole family for the sake of him and Shannon's love, saying that Kinzo raping Jessica or Shannon such that she developed DID and it was Beatrice?

Do you people just look for a plausible explanation but not the only truth? Why can't you see the link between Real Beatrice, Kinzo, Maria, epitaph, final disaster, 07151129, 10 ton gold, the deceased Kinzo's beloved Beatrice and 1967 Beatrice?

(I am probably getting over-excited. )

[Renall]

Originally Posted by ijriims

Do you people just look for a plausible explanation but not the only truth? Why can't you see the link between Real Beatrice, Kinzo, Maria, epitaph, final disaster, 07151129, 10 ton gold and the deceased Kinzo's beloved Beatrice?

Probably because you're the only one who sees it. I'm not saying you're wrong, but if your position was really so obvious you wouldn't be the only person convinced of it given how many times you've advanced the idea.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Renall

Probably because you're the only one who sees it. I'm not saying you're wrong, but if your position was really so obvious you wouldn't be the only person convinced of it given how many times you've advanced the idea.

I could see that some people were at least trying to posit something otherthan DID, and white horse as motive.

I will suffice for that already.

Even you tried to say something like Beatrice as a killer for love, I am just looking for someone like you.

There are something which could be proven wrong in my theories like Kyrie being Beatrice. However, I am quite convinued that no matter who Beatrice is, her motive would be close to what I have posited.

Usually people advocated theories which separated the real Beatrice (usually posited as Shannon or Jessica) and the old Beatrices (1952 one, 1967 one), that is quite wrong in my eyes since every scene given by Ryukishi07 should got connected together in the end and that would make a good story.

(I probably often choose theories based on my artistic taste rather than on reason)

[Renall]

I don't think the issue most people take with your idea is what motivates Beatrice or any of the relationships, but the shoehorning of Kyrie into the role when evidence suggests other candidates with equal or greater strength. The inflexibility of assigning a culprit and constructing everything around that means people tend not to pay attention to your more valid points because they think it's all just related to one thing.

There's lots of people who believe Kyrie is a potential culprit. There's lots of people who think "Beatrice" might be acting out of a misguided or tragic love. But there's relatively few people who think the two are one and the same, and the evidence is not obvious or conclusive no matter how many times you present it.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Renall

There's lots of people who believe Kyrie is a potential culprit. There's lots of people who think "Beatrice" might be acting out of a misguided or tragic love. But there's relatively few people who think the two are one and the same, and the evidence is not obvious or conclusive no matter how many times you present it.

In the end, I should say that my stance is to look for a theory which could explain everything elegantly and intelligently (DID is not, implausible cloth-changing is not) and with a touching motive (white horse is not, killing relatives for money is not)while the hints were present inside the SN. If anyone would give me a Shannon-centric or Jessica-centric theory which did not need to resort to cheap trick, then I would endorse and possibly switching side.

IF Ryukishi07 did use DID or something alike in the end, then I would probably stop reading his third series, and probably many would stop as well.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by ijriims

If I read that part correctly, the so-called "rape" part was from Beatrice to urge Battler to do so. In fact, from the context, she probably enjoyed it.

I'm not sure how you could possibly read that emotion into it, especially given everything else Beato's said on the subject of love throughout the story. If anything, the bit where she said "make me feel like furniture again" ought to cement my interpretation of events.

Originally Posted by ijriims

Based on what we know between 1967 Beatrice and Kinzo, we knew that Kinzo did not throw himself on 1967 Beatrice even though she definitely look like her initial lover, so where you can find Kinzo raping Shannon?? Kinzo was a gentleman to 1967 Beatrice.

Yes, the one he kept locked up in a hidden mansion without allowing her to leave. And then she "escaped" when he wasn't looking. And then there was the incident with the child he gave to Natsuhi, which apparently cemented his belief that Beatrice was trying to get away from him. And his growing instability and obsession with black magic, which his own friends acknowledged. Is it really that unbelievable that he might not be as nice to the next "Beatrice" that came along?

Actually, it's been clear in Kinzo's portrayal from the beginning that there was a conflict between a "loving" Kinzo who just wanted to see his beloved Beatrice again and a "violent" Kinzo who wanted to keep her imprisoned. As I was saying to Kitsu, just because he was appearing in fantasy scenes doesn't mean we can immediately write off all of his character development.

Originally Posted by ijriims

And did George know that? Probably when Shannon and George were in love with each other than SHannon would confide these kind of raping to George. Or she should have told Kanon and then Kanon would go instantly to murder Kinzo.

Shannon didn't start dating George until 1985, after Kinzo died. Never mind, that wasn't their first date. However, their relationship wouldn't have gotten off the ground until after the mirror-breaking incident, which was sometime after October 1984.

As for why she didn't tell anyone, go read the wiki article on long-term sexual abuse of children by parental figures, particularly the part about psychological effects. Low self-esteem, guilt, self-blame. Selective amnesia about abuse incidents. Disassociative identity disorder. The symptoms vary by case, but they're all amplified the longer the abuse continues. Disassociation is not unbelievable in cases like this, it's frequent.

I'd like to point out something else. Shannon has been on the island for ten years, far longer than normal, even though she apparently has been making plenty of money and should have been able to strike out on her own. Possibly she stayed for psychological reasons like fear of Kinzo, but if not, it follows that Kinzo had some means of keeping her from leaving. Doesn't that line up with Beato's claim that she was trapped on the island for a long time, and that she only regained her power recently?

I don't know what method Kinzo might have used, but I could speculate baselessly that he wasn't actually paying her.

Originally Posted by ijriims

The so-called prank is only a part of the legend of the golden witch, didn't you remember Shannon telling the tale that a old servant who defame Beatrice then she (or he) got a serious injury? THe legend of the golden witch and all the mysteries dated back to a lot earlier than the timeShannon coming to Rokkenjima (she also said she knew all the unexplainable events from older servants). And EP6 was saying that a distinct Beatrice was responsible for all of these, and this Beatrice was another Beatrice's big sister.

I never said Shannon was behind the pranks. Rather, there is a staggering mountain of evidence that Genji is.

In the same scene I quoted to Kitsu earlier, Ange said something interesting about the first twilight. "Humans have a bad habit of taking two unrelated events and forcibly creating a relationship between them." I've been saying something similar for a long time about the magic circles. There is not one speck of evidence that shows the magic circles were drawn by the culprit, but everyone just assumes they were because they showed up at some of the crime scenes.

Regarding the two Beatos in Episode 6, you're conflating the meta relationship with the board relationship. On the board, Big Sister Beato only exists in fantasy scenes. She represents a collection of rumors, pranks, and stories, not an actual person. What you're claiming is equivalent to saying that Battler must be Little Sister Beato's father on the game board because she called him Father in the meta world.

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by ijriims

In the end, I should say that my stance is to look for a theory which could explain everything elegantly and intelligently (DID is not, implausible cloth-changing is not) and with a touching motive (white horse is not, killing relatives for money is not)while the hints were present inside the SN. If anyone would give me a Shannon-centric or Jessica-centric theory which did not need to resort to cheap trick, then I would endorse and possibly switching side.

IF Ryukishi07 did use DID or something alike in the end, then I would probably stop reading his third series, and probably many would stop as well.

I think we're all looking for a good theory that is intelligent, just so you know.

And what "cheap tricks" does Shannontrice have to use? At worst, there's the whole First Twilight First Episode thing which has been beaten to death, but I hardly think that's a "cheap" trick at all. Meanwhile, you're claiming your theory does not use DID, but how in the world is that possible when you're claiming that the most rational, ruthless, anti-witch person on the island is doing things out of love and the protection of family?

[ijriims]

Interesting...interesting... In some people's eyes, Kyrie is the most rational, ruthless, anti-witch person despite her defending Maria everytime people talk about her hobby and her intense love to Rudolf for 18 years (rational? how can loving a guy who abandoned you after you miscarried for 18 years be rational?) and "miscarried" child. A person without intense emotion would never do such thing. No wonder Ryu07 said without love it cannot be seen.

And the big-sis-Beatrice was a real person since she was also the one who gave the brooch to Shannon, unless you thought that Shannon bought herself a brooch with her alternative personality Beatrice. Or you thought that the whole brooch thing (along with Shannon dating with George) was completely faked by meta-Beatrice.

Done. It is certain that for some of you no matter what clues or script from SN I show, Kyrie is still a downright rational, cool-blooded, nonloving person and Kinzo is a crazy, lustful, evil, dominating grandfather. Ange could not accept Eva would be unwilling to kill Hideyoshi and George no matter what others said to her until she sympathized with Eva's situation. For some of you, you can just treat my characterization of Kyrie and Kinzo as the King's new clothes, I don't mind. And we shall see who shall be the one laughing in the end.

For the others' side, Go furnish the Shannontrice theory or whatever theory you have rather than arguing with me what kind of a person Kyrie could not be. At least show that you can solve EP3, without resorting to DID.

Everyone works for their best, okay?

[LyricalAura]

I just read through the part where Erika tried to confirm everyone's locations, and I don't understand how this fails to kill the Shkannon theory completely.

The first twilight victims are all in the rooms they were found in.
The people in the room neighboring the cousins' room are Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Hideyoshi.

Meta Battler was uncomfortable with repeating "Everyone else (excluding Kinzo) is in the cousins' room." However, he told Erika and noted mentally that he would be perfectly willing to repeat that Krauss, Rudolf, Jessica, Genji, Gohda, and Kanon are in the cousins' room. It wasn't outright stated in red, but it might as well have been unless you claim that even Battler's internal monologue that Erika had no access to was bluffing. So how can Shkannon work when the two of them are in different rooms at the same time?

And then: I acknowledge that all other people (excluding Kinzo) are in the cousins' room. Regardless of Shkannon, this certainly erases Erika -- because although she excluded Kinzo from "all other people," she never excluded herself.

EDIT:
Erases her, or locks her in the cousins' room with everyone else. But if she's in the cousins' room, she can't be out in the hallway sealing doors or investigating.

[imaginari]

...I was planning to reply to this a page or two ago. I've changed my mind.

edit: "this" being ijriims' posts, not the one above

[Dr. Akagi]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Did you miss the part of the story where Beatrice appears to have been violently raped by Kinzo repeatedly over a long period of time?

What? There really was something like that in Ep 6?

Pedo-Kinzo? Gimme moar!

I wonder about Shkannon though… Being both pedo- and homo- could be a tough combo to pull. On the other hand, as Battler likes to say, I wouldn’t put it past Grandfather.

Poor George and Jessica. Now I finally understand that one line in “La divina tragedia” which never made much sense. It turns out Kinzo was actually singing: “Sacrifice ship to God”. Oh deeezaaayaa, indeed.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Dr. Akagi

What? There really was something like that in Ep 6?

I was referring to Beato ranting at Battler in Episode 4, and various remarks she made to other characters in other episodes. For instance, the part in Episode 2(?) where she told Shannon that her relationship with George would definitely lose its appeal the first time George looked at her with lust in his eyes.

[Dr. Akagi]

Ah, I see.

I'm still rooting for bona fide rape flashback in Ep 7, though. Bring it on, you old geezer!

** Makes a mental note to restock on the popcorn**

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

I was referring to Beato ranting at Battler in Episode 4, and various remarks she made to other characters in other episodes. For instance, the part in Episode 2(?) where she told Shannon that her relationship with George would definitely lose its appeal the first time George looked at her with lust in his eyes.

I thought she was just talking about the way any man would get when they get horny.

It could also be what she thinks of Battler when he thinks about groping some girl's breasts; especially in that flashback scene where he admits to her progenitor about wanting to do so.

Anyways, I wanted to post because I was wondering about this theory that you guys are discussing regarding "The Culprit." Don't you think there could still be more than one culprit? Although I mean culprit as in people going around doing strange things, not necessarily murder. (There's most likely more than one murderer, for example in EP3, Eva going nuts at the end and shooting Battler.) In the same way that there are multiple Beatrices, there are multiple culprits. But each different culprit's actions accumulate onto Beatrice so it looks like she's 'fickle.'

For example... I think this is everyone's suspicion too; Jan Poo once suggested the only unattached girls for Battler to love is Maria and Kumasawa. Now, I was not so quick to dismiss Kumasawa... but at the same time, I didn't think it was romantic love too.

I've ascribed a lot of what Virgilia does to Kumasawa. What if Kumasawa was really upset at the death of '67 Beatrice? Enough to try and 'resurrect' her by playing the pranks (with Kinzo's blessing of course)? This could explain the epitaph; Beatrice will be revived... but then she will sleep forever. Perhaps she at the same time cared about Battler and thought that Beatrice would be suitable for Battler, in an imaginary, 'magic' way.

Afterall, Kumasawa IS the only other girl... er... woman... er... old lady... to offer her boobs up for him to feel. 8)

With her as the first mastermind behind one or two of the Beatrices, she could have recruited both Shannon and Jessica to play the parts, though they may not be aware of why they are doing so. In addition, her motives may not actually be nefarious.

Could it be that Kumasawa is responsible for the Witch Legend Beatrice, Shannon is responsible for branching off Moetrice, and Jessica is the one who plays the Beatrice with the short skirt for everyone else to see?

The other things I've suspected is that Kinzo may have simply loved Beatrice as a daughter. The only times people said she was his lover was in rumors and we never got any evidence of any funny stuff between the two. None from Nanjo, Kumasawa or Genji. I smell a Ryukishi trap here, like the one he laid down for us about 'Furniture.' Perhaps also Kinzo had lined her up as a successor for the family too... who knows.

Finally, it seems clear to me that there are at least two culprits now, with the proof from EP6 that people are faking deaths. It's said that the people willingly chose to lie down and pretend they were dead, although I wouldn't think it was necessarily a prank like the text said. (Maybe they were given sedatives though.) This is why they all chose nice rooms with beds, is what the game told us. And then someone else comes along and really kills them, as people who stay motionless on purpose or under drugs are really, really easy targets. Especially for gunshots, like in some of the episodes.

The only thing is in some of the episodes culprit #2 has already come along and moved the bodies elsewhere by the time anyone is aware, like in EP1. And in some episodes culprit #2 may not have the ability to move bodies, like in EP3. It seems less likely that the first culprit who asked people to play dead also killed them, because like in EP5, the people moved... and then were killed later.

Theoretically it could be just one guy... but it seems like culprit #1 is constant throughout the episodes but culprit #2 is not, owing to different methods of murder and different results.

Anyways, sorry if this has been discussed before, although I think I've read every page up to now and hadn't seen it brought up yet...

[MeoTwister5]

Some people were asking when I'll be continuing the summaries. I think I sort of understand the Japanese of the logic error now and exams are done so I should have some up later.

Edit - Just realized the part where I stopped wasn't THE logic error that becomes the issue but a minor one regarding Battler trying to hurry the game along.

[Kaiba]

Kyrie is the most rational, ruthless, anti-witch person despite her defending Maria everytime people talk about her hobby

Wut. When did this happen.

For the others' side, Go furnish the Shannontrice theory or whatever theory you have rather than arguing with me what kind of a person Kyrie could not be. At least show that you can solve EP3, without resorting to DID.

I've already explained my version of Episode 3 to you beforehand, and how it works with Shannontrice. Long story short, Shannon had nothing to do with that episode.

? Although I mean culprit as in people going around doing strange things, not necessarily murder.

Well, yes. There is absolutely no way that only one person could have done all the murders/stuff for all the episodes, as they all have alibis at one point or another. Multiple people are involved, and possibly multiple groups. Or are you saying something else?

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Kaiba

I've already explained my version of Episode 3 to you beforehand, and how it works with Shannontrice. Long story short, Shannon had nothing to do with that episode.

I would be grateful to have the link to that article.

BTW, I suppose you are not using Geogre as mastermind in this episode, are you?

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

I just read through the part where Erika tried to confirm everyone's locations, and I don't understand how this fails to kill the Shkannon theory completely.

Pretty much the same observation I made here.
As far as Episode 6 has some hints regarding the shkanon theory, that monologue + logic error red galore are hardly possible to avoid either.

That and Erika's POV in Episode 5 (unless again, people claim Bernkastel is doing the moron, using an unreliable POV instead of Erika who is next to both Shannon and Kanon for several instances).