Lacus Clyne... the Plot Hole Character

[kaito-kid]

Originally Posted by Admiral Larsen

Its mainly because in the shows that I've seen, it usually indicates a ditz or such. Looking at her initial presentation, it reminded me way too much of Lynn Minmay of Macross fame (which is not a good thing in my book).

Well.. Don't judje a book by it's cover.. I guess.
To be fair, there was some foreshadowing that she had commanding capability or at least that she had a voice on the the battlefield. I do agree with RD that they could have made a few more scenes covering this subject and I understand you didn't buy it, but I did. I'm ok with just that one instance, after all foreshadowing is about subtlety.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

A few more scenes spread across earlier episodes before her whole guerrilla escape with the Eternal could've fixed that.

Maybe so, but I think what they gave us of her background was already enough of a setup for what Lacus ended up doing in SEED.

Being a celebrity and the daughter of the first PLANT Chairman, Lacus was established as someone who was well known to the public and able to address the people. Her being involved in her father's work (as evidenced by her knowing about a top secret project like the Freedom) also prepared her for inheriting the support of the Clyne Faction (which, I might add, referred to a group of people who supported Siegel Clyne as opposed to Patrick Zala). Thus, with the support already there through her father and her own ability to publicly address the public, the fact that Lacus acted and might even looked like a "ditzy" character in the beginning seems to me to be a poor excuse to be labeling her eventual role, as it was, as a plot hole. In the end, Lacus had always been capable of addressing the public, and she merely used her ability to speak out against the way the PLANT Council was handling the war.

And as for her part in the theft of the Eternal and subsequent role in the coming battles, we've seen that Lacus could hold her own in a tough situation, and she also had Andrew Waltdfeld helping her. Again, her primary role was still in addressing the people, or the soldiers in this case, as well as being the center for her cause. These are things which, again, she had already been shown to be capable of doing.

Lacus acting the way she did in person in the beginning had no bearing on what she was capable of doing in public, especially as we've already been shown her serious side earlier. Therefore, no inconsistency had occurred in the plot, and thus, no plot hole.

[S.Freedom]

There's something else to consider about her character when we where first introduced to her. She was on an enemy controlled warship headed for even more enemies where she's concerned. I mean Natarle(?) suggested using her as a political hostage for crying out loud.

How else was she supposed to act than as a ditzy idol singer?

[monster]

Well, Lacus did identity herself as the daughter of the PLANT Chairman, but I suppose she felt it was better to come off clean from the beginning as she wasn't exactly a private figure.

Or maybe she's just a quick judge of character and realized that they wouldn't hurt her.

[S.Freedom]

Well that was only after Mu recognized her last name. Otherwise she was unknown really. At least on a personal level, they only knew her by who her father was. Which is why Natarle suggested using her as a hostage.

[monster]

Well, Lacus didn't have to say her last name or she could fake her name. But, like I said, she probably thought it's best to be honest from the start.

[Gundamx]

she is Coordinator
war between Coordinator and Natural
so she will have better treatment if they know who she is

[IkuzeMinna]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Lacus could've used better presentation, because as it stands she mostly came off as ditzy idol in one part of the story, guerilla combatant in the second. It was jarring for some.

This is pretty much all it boils down to in my case. I'll say it outright, I abhor Lacus in the first series (I won't bother mentioning that train wreck sequel). But my dislike does not stem from her character traits or her appearance or the quality of her hair(?), but from her presentation. In particular, the blatant favoritism on the writers' part and the inane catering to the teenaged audience, which pretty much drove me up the wall when she wouldn't. stop. singing. during her introductory episodes. And Haro. Goodness, how I hate that obnoxious thing.

From what I remember, and I ask you forgive any errors as it's been years since I last watched the show, on paper, Lacus is a kindhearted young woman with firm beliefs, who is famous among her people not only due to her father but also due to her own career. She may be young, but she knows when to put her foot down and isn't afraid to take risks to reach her goals.

That's a decent characterization. How it was worked into the story is what kills me. monster is right with what s/he says; neither Lacus' charisma nor her "leadership" skills nor even her sobriety came out of left field. It was all hinted at during earlier episodes.
The problem is that I feel the writers were far more focused on selling her as the stereotypical naive, idealistic, ditzy, <insert flashy color>-haired pop idol (see: Yuna in FF X-2) whom Japanese and teeny audiences seem to love for some reason, that her other qualities were more or less thrown under the bus as far as screen time goes.
To put it in other words, I would have enjoyed seeing more of her acting in her capacity as a Junius 7 memorial delegate (I think it was?) in place of her popping up on TV to "sing the song of peace" or whatever. I mean, seriously? That's like making Michelle Obama sing Kumbaya instead of giving a speech. I don't know about others, but I can't take that seriously. Made worse by the fact that apparently the entire CE universe is into her songs.
Except for Flay, but she's an evil witch hurting poor, poor Kira-chan anyway.

By the time Lacus' second arc started, the image of a carefree, gentle pop singer, who sporadically turned solemn, had pretty much cemented itself in my mind so I was quite put off when I saw her sitting in the middle of Eternal's bridge and going into SEED mode to... deliver a speech...?
Mind you, I didn't mind the hijack, nor did I mind her broadcasts (those were actually pretty cool on her part). I could even stomach her presence on Eternal, writing it off as solidarity.
But why on Earth did they make every shot of Eternal's bridge look like Lacus was in charge? Why did she have the central seat? She looked like the freaking captain! And correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there is a purpose for a ship's leader to have such a seat instead of sitting in some corner. If so, shouldn't a soldier better man that post when going into battle instead of a civilian in a fancy kimono?

Long story short, if the writers had stopped fanboygirling over her for five minutes and focused more on her practical skills than her singing and fashion sense, there would have been far less people yelling Mary Sue and plot hole character when they hear the name Lacus, simply because they would have noticed that she can do more than sing and look pretty.

[S.Freedom]

Ok you had me for most of your post IkuzeMinna, and I'll even agree with most of it. But the second I read Flay being a witch who hurt poor, poor Kira-chan you lost me. And it only got worse from there.

You do remember that Andrew Waltfield was also on the Eternals bridge right? And that he's a skilled commander and MS pilot who actually did do most of the commanding aboard the Eternal.

Also I believe your mistaking Lacus for Meer Cambell poping up on TV singing and such.

[IkuzeMinna]

Haha, I apologize for the misunderstanding S.Freedom. The comment about "Kira-chan" was me alluding to a surprisingly large portion of the fandom, which loathes Flay because "she's evil, she manipulated and used poor Kira! she deserved to die!!!1", when, uh, he was on top of her. Those folks more often than not happen to ship him with Lacus. And are young, with no grasp on the Japanese language, resulting in posts littered with "-chan"s, "-kun"s and "baka"s, among other things.

To clarify, I shall be caught dead before I mean something like that seriously.

And yes, I remember Waltfeld being in command. That's not what I was ranting about. I was ranting about the animators sticking Lacus behind him in a central position, making her look like she was part of the commanding unit. Although she wasn't.
To get my point across, compare Allster's position to hers; he was seated next to the captain. Or Azrael, who sat somewhere below Badgiruel. I believe Durandal was also sitting next to Gladys (best mom ever btw).
Lacus though is enthroned above Waltfeld, making it appear as if she's in charge, since she has the "best" seat. Hence, some casual viewers believing she actually is.

And again, I apologize for indeed getting Meer and Lacus mixed up. While I remember Lacus' music video(?) being broadcast on TV, it was not in conjunction with any political campaign. That was Meer all right. Thanks for pointing that out.
As I said, it has been years since I last watched the show, so please be lenient with me for confusing Lacus with her (sorta) clone. But say, when Lacus did the broadcasts to counter Zala's propaganda, didn't she say something about singing, too? I'd look it up, but I have no idea where to start...

[monster]

Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna

By the time Lacus' second arc started, the image of a carefree, gentle pop singer, who sporadically turned solemn, had pretty much cemented itself in my mind so I was quite put off when I saw her sitting in the middle of Eternal's bridge and going into SEED mode to... deliver a speech...?

In other words, you're not able to accept that someone who is carefree can also be serious, that someone who is a gentle pop singer can also address more serious topics? You know, these are not mutually exclusive qualities.

But why on Earth did they make every shot of Eternal's bridge look like Lacus was in charge? Why did she have the central seat? She looked like the freaking captain! And correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there is a purpose for a ship's leader to have such a seat instead of sitting in some corner. If so, shouldn't a soldier better man that post when going into battle instead of a civilian in a fancy kimono?

Well, she is the leader. Also, she is seating behind Andrew, like Gilbert, Athrun, and Cagalli were seating behind Talia in the Minerva.

And from a story standpoint, it makes sense because they want to emphasize her as she represents the Eternal/Clyne Faction.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by monster

Well, she is the leader. Also, she is seating behind Andrew, like Gilbert, Athrun, and Cagalli were seating behind Talia in the Minerva.

And from a story standpoint, it makes sense because they want to emphasize her as she represents the Eternal/Clyne Faction.

Her being the leader of the Clyne Faction means shit when it comes to the command chair on a bridge of a ship. Such chairs are designed for the captain, the guy who calls the shots on the vessel, to oversee ALL of the actions going on in the bridge.

Since she is neither military, nor a captain, Lacus had no business taking the seat Andrew, the actual captain of that vessel, should've been sitting at.

[Washu-Chan]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Her being the leader of the Clyne Faction means shit when it comes to the command chair on a bridge of a ship. Such chairs are designed for the captain, the guy who calls the shots on the vessel, to oversee ALL of the actions going on in the bridge.

Since she is neither military, nor a captain, Lacus had no business taking the seat Andrew, the actual captain of that vessel, should've been sitting at.

Isn't Lacus supposed to be a figurehead/face of the TSA, and left the dirty work to Kira, Athrun, Cagalli, Andrew, and Murrue?

[monster]

Andrew is seating in the middle, just like Murrue, Natarle, and Talia in their respective ships.

[IkuzeMinna]

Originally Posted by monster

In other words, you're not able to accept that someone who is carefree can also be serious, that someone who is a gentle pop singer can also address more serious topics? You know, these are not mutually exclusive qualities.

You misunderstood me. No, they most certainly aren't. But I believe the writers have done a horrid job of introducing and portraying Lacus "correctly," making her character controversial if one does not pay attention.

What I mean with "correctly" is that Lacus' personality strikes me as being more serious than silly, according to what we see during the latter half of SEED and the entirety of the sequel.
But what I remember from her introduction is her wandering around an enemy warship as though taking a stroll, excusing her escape from her room as Haro not liking being locked up and trying to befriend a girl with obvious racist views in a (what I feel) rather naive manner. Also, her telling Athrun, a soldier in the middle of fighting a war, to smile more.
With that carefree attitude in mind, it was quite jarring to see her appear so austere in the second half.

If the writers want to go for a cute, sweet, teenaged girl, they're free to focus on her singing and all the other juvenile aspects of her. But if they're gonna pass her off as a political figure in the future, I expect there to be more emphasis on her public appearances outside her singing (namely the memorial delegate thing) to give credibility to her actions and to prevent people from comparing her to Britney Spears giving a speech on CNN.
Likewise, if they're not going to focus on her so that the audience might witness her character development, they ought to establish her as a serious character from the beginning, if that's what they'll go for. She can have a playful side to her, but that shouldn't overshadow her basic nature.

No matter how I slice it, it's just bad writing.

Well, she is the leader. Also, she is seating behind Andrew, like Gilbert, Athrun, and Cagalli were seating behind Talia in the Minerva.

And from a story standpoint, it makes sense because they want to emphasize her as she represents the Eternal/Clyne Faction.

Wait, leader of what? The Three Ships Alliance? Even if she was (and I find that unreasonable, considering the TSA is a militia), she is a civilian. She has no practical reason to be on the Eternal. Other than getting much-needed screen time, that is.

So I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you here. The way I see it, the emphasis on Lacus was not due to her representing anything, but simple favoritism. Or a failed attempt at excusing her being touted as a main character. Likely both.
If they want to stick her in there, fine. I just wish they had been appropriate about her role and toned down the fanboygirling, refraining from giving her special treatment in the forms of that "throne" and SEED mode and a fancy new dress.
Every other person barely had a wardrobe exceeding two outfits and at the least got assigned to the CIC as they were untrained, yet there would be no freeloading (cannon fodder exempt).
As for Lacus? I would have had her stay behind somewhere safe, like every president does. Or, if her presence on Eternal was absolutely necessary, have her in the background like Durandal, not shoved in my face. Frankly, I found Durandal's presence and interactions with Gladys very well done.

By the way, is Lacus actually the leader of the Clyne Faction? I don't remember her being called such and sort of assumed that she was just the figurehead, while people like Canaver were doing most of the work. It would make more sense for a politician to lead than a young girl whose main profession appears to be in the music industry.

[monster]

Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna

No, they most certainly aren't.

Then there shouldn't be any controversy. Lacus had obviously judged that she was not in any immediate danger on the Archangel. The only way her more serious attitude later in the series could be considered jarring is if you had somehow forgotten that she and her father had chosen to go against the Zala administration and that their lives are in fact in danger, proven by her father's death.

Wait, leader of what? The Three Ships Alliance?

No, the Clyne Faction.

Even if she was (and I find that unreasonable, considering the TSA is a militia), she is a civilian. She has no practical reason to be on the Eternal. Other than getting much-needed screen time, that is.

I would have had her stay behind somewhere safe, like every president does. Or, if her presence on Eternal was absolutely necessary, have her in the background like Durandal, not shoved in my face. Frankly, I found Durandal's presence and interactions with Gladys very well done.

Again, are you forgetting that Lacus was targeted? She's in the Eternal because she was running away from the PLANTs. She doesn't have an office, you know.

If a President/Chairman was in a military ship, he/she, even as a civilian, would still be in charge.

I also previously mentioned that Lacus's seat is in a similar position to Durandal, just that he chose to sit to the side. In both the Eternal and the Minerva, Andrew and Talia sit in the middle seat of the bridge, respectively.

[Admiral Larsen]

Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna

You misunderstood me. No, they most certainly aren't. But I believe the writers have done a horrid job of introducing and portraying Lacus "correctly," making her character controversial if one does not pay attention.

What I mean with "correctly" is that Lacus' personality strikes me as being more serious than silly, according to what we see during the latter half of SEED and the entirety of the sequel.
But what I remember from her introduction is her wandering around an enemy warship as though taking a stroll, excusing her escape from her room as Haro not liking being locked up and trying to befriend a girl with obvious racist views in a (what I feel) rather naive manner. Also, her telling Athrun, a soldier in the middle of fighting a war, to smile more.
With that carefree attitude in mind, it was quite jarring to see her appear so austere in the second half.

If the writers want to go for a cute, sweet, teenaged girl, they're free to focus on her singing and all the other juvenile aspects of her. But if they're gonna pass her off as a political figure in the future, I expect there to be more emphasis on her public appearances outside her singing (namely the memorial delegate thing) to give credibility to her actions and to prevent people from comparing her to Britney Spears giving a speech on CNN.
Likewise, if they're not going to focus on her so that the audience might witness her character development, they ought to establish her as a serious character from the beginning, if that's what they'll go for. She can have a playful side to her, but that shouldn't overshadow her basic nature.

No matter how I slice it, it's just bad writing.



Wait, leader of what? The Three Ships Alliance? Even if she was (and I find that unreasonable, considering the TSA is a militia), she is a civilian. She has no practical reason to be on the Eternal. Other than getting much-needed screen time, that is.

So I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you here. The way I see it, the emphasis on Lacus was not due to her representing anything, but simple favoritism. Or a failed attempt at excusing her being touted as a main character. Likely both.
If they want to stick her in there, fine. I just wish they had been appropriate about her role and toned down the fanboygirling, refraining from giving her special treatment in the forms of that "throne" and SEED mode and a fancy new dress.
Every other person barely had a wardrobe exceeding two outfits and at the least got assigned to the CIC as they were untrained, yet there would be no freeloading (cannon fodder exempt).
As for Lacus? I would have had her stay behind somewhere safe, like every president does. Or, if her presence on Eternal was absolutely necessary, have her in the background like Durandal, not shoved in my face. Frankly, I found Durandal's presence and interactions with Gladys very well done.

By the way, is Lacus actually the leader of the Clyne Faction? I don't remember her being called such and sort of assumed that she was just the figurehead, while people like Canaver were doing most of the work. It would make more sense for a politician to lead than a young girl whose main profession appears to be in the music industry.

I have to agree with you on that. Her presentation was horrible especially since they shoved it right in our faces that she was supposed to be someone very important to the main character. Instead of seeing a natural progression, we see something that looks schizophrenic and such. Personally, I would have ditched about her being the pop-star singer with such ugly naivety and shown her more serious side right off the bat.

[IkuzeMinna]

Originally Posted by monster

Then there shouldn't be any controversy. Lacus had obviously judged that she was not in any immediate danger on the Archangel.

Be that as it may, her behavior on the Archangel still put her in danger. If I was part of a military that fights another army because of inane racism, having the daughter of the leader of my opponents stroll around my warship unsupervised and more importantly without permission, I would have accused her of snooping around and thrown her into a cell at the very least. She was confined to her room for a reason, after all.

I can't imagine Lacus, who just barely survived an assassination attempt at the remains of Junius freaking 7, would be so ignorant to naturals' beliefs and views that she'd act as though nothing was up.
I know she's not an airhead, so I'd like for the writers to show that instead of "yeah, pinky got bored so I went for a walk in your warship." She could have gotten herself accused of spying and shot with those actions.

The only way her more serious attitude later in the series could be considered jarring is if you had somehow forgotten that she and her father had chosen to go against the Zala administration and that their lives are in fact in danger, proven by her father's death.

Her life was in danger even before that. That didn't stop the writers from emphasizing a happy-go-lucky attitude at first. If her default nature is to be serious, then I expect her to be. She was not a sheltered girl living under a rock. She knew what was going on around her. Her father was the Chief Representative and her fiancé was a soldier. She actively took part in public events relating to the war (like visiting the remains of Junius 7).

Such a person ought to be highly aware of how to act around different people. Such a person ought to know when to be careful with her actions and words. But most of the time before the TSA arc I found her to behave completely inappropriate. The cheerful and naive attitude didn't help.

Thus, it was jarring when she suddenly snapped out of that stupor. And if you say it was because of her father's death, then I'll have to believe she was on drugs before to be so utterly carefree when people already tried to kill her.

Again, are you forgetting that Lacus was targeted? She's in the Eternal because she was running away from the PLANTs. She doesn't have an office, you know.

So the safest place to go to is a battlefield...? You're joking, aren't you? Mate, there is nothing wrong with acknowledging she needed screen time. It's certainly more sound than trying to excuse her presence as a necessity, seeing as there were opportunities for her to be carted off somewhere, like Malcho's place or heck, random colony #35. They weren't under constant fire, someone could have dropped her off. And it's not like Zala had people to spare with the EA attacking.

Originally Posted by Admiral Larsen

I have to agree with you on that. Her presentation was horrible especially since they shoved it right in our faces that she was supposed to be someone very important to the main character.

I never got that pairing.

Instead of seeing a natural progression, we see something that looks schizophrenic and such. Personally, I would have ditched about her being the pop-star singer with such ugly naivety and shown her more serious side right off the bat.

Yup, right with you on that. I would have liked it more than the "Hello Kitty goes Guiseppe Garibaldi" mess we got.
But one has to wonder whether the sales would have suffered in that case. Because no matter how much it bugs me, SEED made tons of money. And Lacus played no small part in that.

[monster]

Originally Posted by IkuzeMinna

Be that as it may, her behavior on the Archangel still put her in danger. If I was part of a military that fights another army because of inane racism, having the daughter of the leader of my opponents stroll around my warship unsupervised and more importantly without permission, I would have accused her of snooping around and thrown her into a cell at the very least. She was confined to her room for a reason, after all.

That's all and good if she had been in a ship full of insane racists. She wasn't.

Lacus confirmed her identity and they did not react negatively.
She explained her situation and the Captain sympathized with her.
They might've confined her in a locked room, but they didn't bother to put her in a brig or put armed guards around her.

She tested her freedom and was pleasantly reacted to peacefully aside for Flay. And speaking of Flay, Lacus calmly refuted her ignorant assumptions instead of stooping to her level or even being afraid or hateful of Flay. Lacus actually tried to make peace. That's not naïve; it's what Lacus wanted rather than go with Patrick Zala's kill-all-Naturals solution.

She then learned that Kira was a Coordinator, which again showed that this was not a ship where she has to live in fear. And as Mu said, the EA would welcome her as a valuable hostage. Altogether, her life was not in any immediate danger.

I can't imagine Lacus, who just barely survived an assassination attempt at the remains of Junius freaking 7, would be so ignorant to naturals' beliefs and views that she'd act as though nothing was up.

On the contrary, she's not ignorant enough to think that all Naturals viewed Coordinators in that way, as proven by the Archangel crew.

It's that kind of thinking that leads Zala to his genocidal plan. Lacus is not naïve like that.

I know she's not an airhead, so I'd like for the writers to show that instead of "yeah, pinky got bored so I went for a walk in your warship." She could have gotten herself accused of spying and shot with those actions.

If they were going to shoot her, they would've put armed guards at her door. She also went straight to the mess hall the first time instead of snooping around. At worst, she might've been put in the brig.

Her life was in danger even before that.

No it wasn't. At least, not to the level where she was actively targeted.

Such a person ought to be highly aware of how to act around different people. Such a person ought to know when to be careful with her actions and words. But most of the time before the TSA arc I found her to behave completely inappropriate. The cheerful and naive attitude didn't help.

Aside for Flay, her personality helped Lacus not to be seen as threatening by the people around her. And other than her time at the Archangel, Lacus was at home. She can behave anyway she wants at her home.

Thus, it was jarring when she suddenly snapped out of that stupor. And if you say it was because of her father's death, then I'll have to believe she was on drugs before to be so utterly carefree when people already tried to kill her.

Before that, the only incident she was in was a dispute between EA and ZAFT at the site of the Junius 7 site that turned violent, but it was over quickly and nobody ever targeted her specifically.

So the safest place to go to is a battlefield...?

The safest place is to be away from Patrick Zala and together with the people who support her.

As for the battlefield, they decided to ensure that the nuclear weapons wouldn't reach the PLANTs and they certainly wouldn't leave Lacus in Mendel.

[Aquaman OS]

Ditzy Lacus was pretty clearly an act, as shown when she immedaitely drops the facade and seriously orders Cruset to stand down. Likewise her regular self (which she shows when around the TSA) is somewhere in between that and her "serious" self. Nice, but calm and stoic (kind of like GSD Kira).

Of course that's not to say she wasn't poorly handled thanks to the directors desire to make her this "deep" character that only he and his wife understood, which only really made her come off as boring. Making a her pop star was also a poor decision because what she was obviously supposed to have been raised as (and became) was Siegal Clyne's political heir. I suspect it might have been just an excuse to have Rie Tanaka sing songs for the show.

It might also have to do with Japanese people's at times irrational reverance of famous people. Which would not be the first time Seed's very Japanese design (particularly with Lacus and anyone connected to the nation of Orb) as opposed to other Gundam's somewhat more culturally neutral one, confused or otherwise annoyed western viewers.