AnimeSuki Forums

Syn13 · 2004-10-20, 04:02

Hi all, I finished watching the first 2 episodes of Gundam Seed Destiny and found it actually quite entertaining to watch.

Here's the thing, when Seed first came out, I saw some of the first episodes and then I stopped because it was starting out real slow and plus the art kinda turned me off(probably cuz of Scryed). Anyway growing up watching most of the U.C. series(Gundam, Z Gundam, 0800, 08th ms team, Char's counter attack, F91, etc...) and then watching Gundam X, Savior and Wing, the alternate Century storylines kinda turned me away from watching any of the new Gundam stuff(Mainly Gundam Wing). Will Seed turn out good for a Gundam fan like me? I saw some of the later later episodes and they were pretty cool.

Anyway I like how they are trying to bring the UC look to Destiny's MS' such as the Zakus and the GM looking ones(actually looks like the Victory Gundam mass produced ones).

JediNight · 2004-10-20, 05:12

AFAIK its a retelling of the original 0079 story give or take, "Jazzed up" for current day. Coordinators == Newtypes of course. Granted I've only seen parts of 0079 and Zeta, but I liked Seed much better than X or Wing. It's definitely paced differently and won't feel like a Tomino Gundam series at all to my knowledge. Although from what I hear -- Tomino is consulting on Seed Destiny, so we may see more in that way of plotstyle in this 2nd Season.

Blaat · 2004-10-20, 05:16

Based on polls etc. Some will say its better, many will say its worse. It all depends on your tastes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JediNight

Although from what I hear -- Tomino is consulting on Seed Destiny, so we may see more in that way of plotstyle in this 2nd Season.

Didn't they say the samething with SEED, besides if he was consulting on SEED DESTINY why isn't he listed in the crew list, besides the obvious original creator?

srb · 2004-10-20, 06:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by JediNight

Coordinators == Newtypes of course.

Actually, Newtypes = Newtypes and Coordinators = Coordinators in SEED.

JohnSilver · 2004-10-20, 06:36

I'm a huge UC fan, but that's mostly because of the Zeon in 79,80 and 83. Seed has very interesting elements that will please both new fans and hardcore fans, and the newest gundam designs are getting better and better (while the mass produced models are starting to lack in efficiency (as long as we don't get a Gundam Wing effect...))

You can easily compare UC with Seed and consider that both are good...

And unless Rai is a Coordinator Newtype, the equation Coordinator = Newtype is still in the NOT TRUE status.

pyu · 2004-10-20, 06:54

IMHO, series from the UC storyline itself aren't very original or thought provoking after the release of the first one.

The rest of it all after the first orignal MSG series (Zeta to Victory) pretty much follows the conflict between the different factions and this in turns fueled the massive Gundam franchise that has been a money spinner for Bandai for a very long time.

The only constants were you had Amuro or Char somewhere in all of them - till they got squished in Char's Counterattack.

And of course, the over-arching theme is still the conflict between Earth and her colonies. However, in Seed, there is a slight adjustment - the conflict has its roots along more disturbing themes - i.e. the Naturals waging war upon the genetically modified Coordinators via the plotting and machinations of the Blue Cosmos.

The evil that men do. *SIGH*

Anyway, I personally find Seed to be very good if you consider it on its own. Many of my friends who have never watched a Gundam series before (they do exist...

) found it to be very engaging and nice - despite having the main protagonist cry all the time.

Unfortunately, it is almost impossible not to compare Seed with older Gundam series. Just blame it on the familiar Gundam elements - there is a villian wearing a helmet mask that masks his identity, and there are plenty plot elements in Seed that originated from UC.

Syn13 · 2004-10-20, 12:50

Interesting!! Maybe I should give it a go then, thanks!

By the way, can you guys explain this coordinator and newtype thing....What is so different about it that they use a different name. The only time I heard the term newtype in a Alternate Universe was Gundam X.

The new Gundam designs I would have to go half half on them and seeing twin/sister models lately like the Astray blue and red and the GO3 and GO4 which happens to be red and blue and side stories...Ever since they started the Alternate universe, they have gotten much colourful and creative especially in G-Gundam and Gundam Wing. Gundam Wing must have been the worse gundam series I've seen IMO(I know Gundams are the best you can get but I don't think you are invincible when you are standing in one spot getting shot at by 100 MS's)

srb · 2004-10-20, 13:15

Well, the ones in G are supposed to be colourful and unique because it's a super robot show, and a damn entertaining one at that. And as a Swede I am PROUD that we have a school girl Gundam and yoooouuuu dooooon't!

Coordinators are genetically engineered humans, basically better at everything. First generation Coordinators (like Kira Yamato) are named so not after age but how they were conceived - he was conceived "naturally" and then altered while second generation Coordinators is born from a Coordinator mother and father and carries on the traits they have.

Newtypes are another step in the human evolution with amongst other things telepathic ability and being able to sense intense feelings. There's a whole lot to write about it and I'm tired and there are tons of websites with great explanations as well as the most excellent Mobile Suit Gundam novel trilogy re-issued in one book released by Stonebridge Press.

jake007 · 2004-10-20, 13:21

Newtypes are naturally evolved humans (If I recall, it's due to a prolonged period in space.)

Coordinators are genetically modified (to the max the is) prior to the fertilisation.

And also, coordinators becomes weaker and less fertile from generations to generation.

Syn13 · 2004-10-20, 13:22

Cool, only needed the Coordinator explaination

It reminds me of Artificial Newtypes but they were all unstable...well the ones I remember were.
From all the Gundam I've watched, I'm pretty sure the definition/idea of Newtype is stuck in my head heh heh. I remember that Gundam X had reveal that Newtypes weren't evolution or something at the end, can't remember cuz I watched it on crappy VCD years and years ago but I don't think that'll matter since it is After War Century.

LOL G Gundam was so predictable for China being chinese...A dragon...WOW!

srb · 2004-10-20, 13:26

But Sweden don't have school uniforms in any school in the whole country except for a few religious whacko-schools :P

Although I wouldn't mind it...

It's just that Sweden is thought to be such an equal country that we had to have a female-looking Gundam... But I wonder how the hell they figured "Allenby Beardsley" would be a Swedish name? :P

avmoghe · 2004-10-20, 13:49

It all depends on your tastes.

Here is what I have seen of the UC -

MSG movies (supposed to be better than the series)
Zeta Gundam
Char's Counterattack
Victory Gundam
0080
0083

I can say without a doubt that I enjoyed Gundam Seed far more than any of the above.
I grant that Gundam Seed is very similar to the original MSG for about the first 25 episodes. But I've always thought that the best part of GS (the part that makes me love it the most) has been the final third.

With the commencement of Operation Spit Break in episode 34, I felt like the show moved to a while new level of awesome-ness. From that point on, till the ending credits of episode 50, I was on the edge of my seat.

You probably saw some of the above episodes which you thought were cool. If you thought they were cool, then I would definitely recommend continuing with the series.

Either way, to address your original question, I personally find Gundam Seed a lot more enjoyable than the UC stuff I've seen.

Eskay · 2004-10-20, 18:41

Despite the fact that Wing was the first series i watched, i consider myself a UC fan at heart. (having seen 0079, 0080, 0083, F91, 08th, wing, G, Seed and currently watching X) And to be completely honest, i was disappointed with Seed the most. Not because it borrowed almost half a storyline from 0079 (although that definatly didnt help things) but i hate the whole "teen angst in mid war" and "clone" thing. IMHO its over done and doesnt really make for a good story. Another thing i disliked about seed (and i dislike this about all anime) is the "i cant die because im uber" persona. When a character is caught in a situation that he/she couldnt possibly survive and then comes back with just a scratch, i start losing interest in the storyline altogether. With the older series however you dont get all that. (amuro being the exception to that) It actually seems like a war is taking place.

I will say this about destiny though, so far the action is pretty good despite the fact they are rehashing the same starting plot from the first season. If they can keep this pace up then i may actually over look the lack of plot creativity and grow to like the second season.

Just my 2 cents.....

Syn13 · 2004-10-20, 19:12

Great, gotta fire up my PC and start downloading heh heh!! My laptop is full of Elfen Lied and other stuff.

Series I've seen are:
Mobile Suit Gundam Movie(2 outta 3, I know what happens from TV series)
War in a Pocket(second favorite)
08th Ms team
Stardust Memory
Zeta Gundam(favorite)
Char's Counter Attack
F91
G-Savior(funniest one I've seen)
G-gundam(half)
Gundam X(favorite in alternative)
Gundam Wing

I hope I can add Gundam Seed to my list...along with Victory and ZZ.

Nagare Ryouma · 2004-10-21, 14:25

I'm not sure about Seed when compared with UC, FC, AC, AW, CC timelines... But what I do know is that so far Seed: Destiny looks promising. Although we won't get the Tomino-san treatment, but it looks like we'll get the 'kill'em all' treatment
from Fukuda-san. And it looks like NT's are still around... I just hope whatever Fukuda has in mind (of his) for the story of NT's won't cause an angry backlash by the UC fans.

From my point of view, nothing is better then the UC timeline series.... Their just too dramatic, and it's hard to replace them, the mechs and the pilots. Even ZZ turned out pretty well in the middle.... since Tomino scrapped the whole idea and replaced it with his.... But accepting a new Gundam series is nice, as long as the story and everything is good. Can't comment much about Seed, since I honestly didn't like it too much. But Destiny is getting my attention, and a lot of it.... And were just talking about 2 EP's so far.....

brightman · 2004-10-21, 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nagare Ryouma

Even ZZ turned out pretty well in the middle.... since Tomino scrapped the whole idea and replaced it with his....

Er... The idea to make ZZ a comedy was his to begin with. He didn't like Zeta's depressing storyline much so he wanted to make something happier.

Blaat · 2004-10-21, 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by brightman

Er... The idea to make ZZ a comedy was his to begin with. He didn't like Zeta's depressing storyline much so he wanted to make something happier.

True, hence we have comedy in the beginning. I like the humour in the beginning, laughed a few times but it got old pretty quickly. The entire dublin arc is ZZ at its finest.

chibikit · 2004-10-22, 00:59

Okay, let's see... As it has been said, the opinion of Gundam SEED depends strongly on who you ask. Some hardcore UC-ers will say that it's a horrible knock-off of MSG, while some hardcore CE fans will say that it's the best thing since sliced bread.

SEED starts off with an "OMG! They stole the Gundams! Let's get it back!" sequence of events, which then follows the MSG plot idea of going back to main base on Earth but getting sidetracked for various reasons, which then follows the Gundam staple of big showdown in space, all while a bunch of manipulators manipulate each side for their own nefarious ends. Sounds unoriginal and ho-hum, yes? Well, it would be, if this were the whole point of the story.

SEED, despite appearances, is mainly about friendship and the strain on it in times of war. This is most clearly seen in the Kira-Athrun dynamic (two childhood friends on opposing sides, with Athrun intent on bringing Kira to ZAFT) as well as Kira's primary motivation (he willingly fights to protect his friends on the ship, although he wishes he didn't have to). SEED also features strong and fairly believable character development, almost on par with Gundam X. Unlike most other Gundams, it's a drama show with a war in it, instead of a war show with character drama in it.

SEED does have its shortcomings. It happily plods along developing things slowly at first, only to rush through things in the last few episodes - this was handled much better by Gundam X, which finished gracefully despite being axed down to 39 episodes. SEED also had a tendency to use a lot of standard clips of mecha firing and doing stuff, which got a little annoying after a while, but you don't usually notice it because the battles are full of tension.

In conclusion, I'd recommend you watch SEED, especially if you intend to watch Destiny. You will need the backstory from SEED to understand the events in the new series.

Syn13 · 2004-10-22, 01:29

Very informative which is good but too bad for my torrent speed...10gb is gonna take a while but I'm in no rush anyway heh heh and if it really takes too long, then I'll just go out and get the complete DVD boxset.

Couple of the annoying things I found annoying about Seed and Destiny is that use the stolen Gundam idea twice, and the Gundam vs Gundam thing...Its like for a Gundam series now, Gundam has to no equal unless its another Gundam.
Durring my time watching Gundam, only 0083 was the one that I remembered had a Gundam stolen.

chibikit · 2004-10-22, 01:36

Well, think of it this way: what sensible military power wouldn't try to nick their opponents prototypes or plans if they could get away with it? Gundam-jacking makes a lot of sense; you deny your opponent the data they might gather from their prototype and you get a good look at the enemy's technology.

At least the Gundam can only be defeated by a Gundam rule isn't very strong in SEED and Destiny, with the exception of the three final Gundams. A GuAIZ can cream Strike if the pilot is good enough, and Athrun did quite well against Gaia in that Zaku.

2004-10-20, 04:02	Link #1
Syn13 Sui Yein Ng 13 Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Canada Age: 40	How good is Gundam Seed compared to UC storylines? Hi all, I finished watching the first 2 episodes of Gundam Seed Destiny and found it actually quite entertaining to watch. Here's the thing, when Seed first came out, I saw some of the first episodes and then I stopped because it was starting out real slow and plus the art kinda turned me off(probably cuz of Scryed). Anyway growing up watching most of the U.C. series(Gundam, Z Gundam, 0800, 08th ms team, Char's counter attack, F91, etc...) and then watching Gundam X, Savior and Wing, the alternate Century storylines kinda turned me away from watching any of the new Gundam stuff(Mainly Gundam Wing). Will Seed turn out good for a Gundam fan like me? I saw some of the later later episodes and they were pretty cool. Anyway I like how they are trying to bring the UC look to Destiny's MS' such as the Zakus and the GM looking ones(actually looks like the Victory Gundam mass produced ones).

2004-10-20, 05:12	Link #2
JediNight キズランダム Join Date: Apr 2003	AFAIK its a retelling of the original 0079 story give or take, "Jazzed up" for current day. Coordinators == Newtypes of course. Granted I've only seen parts of 0079 and Zeta, but I liked Seed much better than X or Wing. It's definitely paced differently and won't feel like a Tomino Gundam series at all to my knowledge. Although from what I hear -- Tomino is consulting on Seed Destiny, so we may see more in that way of plotstyle in this 2nd Season.

2004-10-20, 06:36	Link #5
JohnSilver MS Technician Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Near the gates of Valhalla Age: 40	I'm a huge UC fan, but that's mostly because of the Zeon in 79,80 and 83. Seed has very interesting elements that will please both new fans and hardcore fans, and the newest gundam designs are getting better and better (while the mass produced models are starting to lack in efficiency (as long as we don't get a Gundam Wing effect...)) You can easily compare UC with Seed and consider that both are good... And unless Rai is a Coordinator Newtype, the equation Coordinator = Newtype is still in the NOT TRUE status.

2004-10-20, 06:54	Link #6
pyu Crouchety Old Man Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Singapore	IMHO, series from the UC storyline itself aren't very original or thought provoking after the release of the first one. The rest of it all after the first orignal MSG series (Zeta to Victory) pretty much follows the conflict between the different factions and this in turns fueled the massive Gundam franchise that has been a money spinner for Bandai for a very long time. The only constants were you had Amuro or Char somewhere in all of them - till they got squished in Char's Counterattack. And of course, the over-arching theme is still the conflict between Earth and her colonies. However, in Seed, there is a slight adjustment - the conflict has its roots along more disturbing themes - i.e. the Naturals waging war upon the genetically modified Coordinators via the plotting and machinations of the Blue Cosmos. The evil that men do. SIGH Anyway, I personally find Seed to be very good if you consider it on its own. Many of my friends who have never watched a Gundam series before (they do exist... ) found it to be very engaging and nice - despite having the main protagonist cry all the time. Unfortunately, it is almost impossible not to compare Seed with older Gundam series. Just blame it on the familiar Gundam elements - there is a villian wearing a helmet mask that masks his identity, and there are plenty plot elements in Seed that originated from UC.

2004-10-20, 12:50	Link #7
Syn13 Sui Yein Ng 13 Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Canada Age: 40	Interesting!! Maybe I should give it a go then, thanks! By the way, can you guys explain this coordinator and newtype thing....What is so different about it that they use a different name. The only time I heard the term newtype in a Alternate Universe was Gundam X. The new Gundam designs I would have to go half half on them and seeing twin/sister models lately like the Astray blue and red and the GO3 and GO4 which happens to be red and blue and side stories...Ever since they started the Alternate universe, they have gotten much colourful and creative especially in G-Gundam and Gundam Wing. Gundam Wing must have been the worse gundam series I've seen IMO(I know Gundams are the best you can get but I don't think you are invincible when you are standing in one spot getting shot at by 100 MS's)

2004-10-20, 13:15	Link #8
srb I can see time itself! Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Kingdom of Sweden Age: 37	Well, the ones in G are supposed to be colourful and unique because it's a super robot show, and a damn entertaining one at that. And as a Swede I am PROUD that we have a school girl Gundam and yoooouuuu dooooon't! Coordinators are genetically engineered humans, basically better at everything. First generation Coordinators (like Kira Yamato) are named so not after age but how they were conceived - he was conceived "naturally" and then altered while second generation Coordinators is born from a Coordinator mother and father and carries on the traits they have. Newtypes are another step in the human evolution with amongst other things telepathic ability and being able to sense intense feelings. There's a whole lot to write about it and I'm tired and there are tons of websites with great explanations as well as the most excellent Mobile Suit Gundam novel trilogy re-issued in one book released by Stonebridge Press.

2004-10-20, 13:21	Link #9
jake007 Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2004	Newtypes are naturally evolved humans (If I recall, it's due to a prolonged period in space.) Coordinators are genetically modified (to the max the is) prior to the fertilisation. And also, coordinators becomes weaker and less fertile from generations to generation.

2004-10-20, 13:22	Link #10
Syn13 Sui Yein Ng 13 Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Canada Age: 40	Cool, only needed the Coordinator explaination It reminds me of Artificial Newtypes but they were all unstable...well the ones I remember were. From all the Gundam I've watched, I'm pretty sure the definition/idea of Newtype is stuck in my head heh heh. I remember that Gundam X had reveal that Newtypes weren't evolution or something at the end, can't remember cuz I watched it on crappy VCD years and years ago but I don't think that'll matter since it is After War Century. LOL G Gundam was so predictable for China being chinese...A dragon...WOW!

2004-10-20, 13:26	Link #11
srb I can see time itself! Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Kingdom of Sweden Age: 37	But Sweden don't have school uniforms in any school in the whole country except for a few religious whacko-schools :P Although I wouldn't mind it... It's just that Sweden is thought to be such an equal country that we had to have a female-looking Gundam... But I wonder how the hell they figured "Allenby Beardsley" would be a Swedish name? :P

2004-10-20, 13:49	Link #12
avmoghe Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004	It all depends on your tastes. Here is what I have seen of the UC - MSG movies (supposed to be better than the series) Zeta Gundam Char's Counterattack Victory Gundam 0080 0083 I can say without a doubt that I enjoyed Gundam Seed far more than any of the above. I grant that Gundam Seed is very similar to the original MSG for about the first 25 episodes. But I've always thought that the best part of GS (the part that makes me love it the most) has been the final third. With the commencement of Operation Spit Break in episode 34, I felt like the show moved to a while new level of awesome-ness. From that point on, till the ending credits of episode 50, I was on the edge of my seat. You probably saw some of the above episodes which you thought were cool. If you thought they were cool, then I would definitely recommend continuing with the series. Either way, to address your original question, I personally find Gundam Seed a lot more enjoyable than the UC stuff I've seen.

2004-10-20, 18:41	Link #13
Eskay Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2004	Despite the fact that Wing was the first series i watched, i consider myself a UC fan at heart. (having seen 0079, 0080, 0083, F91, 08th, wing, G, Seed and currently watching X) And to be completely honest, i was disappointed with Seed the most. Not because it borrowed almost half a storyline from 0079 (although that definatly didnt help things) but i hate the whole "teen angst in mid war" and "clone" thing. IMHO its over done and doesnt really make for a good story. Another thing i disliked about seed (and i dislike this about all anime) is the "i cant die because im uber" persona. When a character is caught in a situation that he/she couldnt possibly survive and then comes back with just a scratch, i start losing interest in the storyline altogether. With the older series however you dont get all that. (amuro being the exception to that) It actually seems like a war is taking place. I will say this about destiny though, so far the action is pretty good despite the fact they are rehashing the same starting plot from the first season. If they can keep this pace up then i may actually over look the lack of plot creativity and grow to like the second season. Just my 2 cents.....

2004-10-20, 19:12	Link #14
Syn13 Sui Yein Ng 13 Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Canada Age: 40	Great, gotta fire up my PC and start downloading heh heh!! My laptop is full of Elfen Lied and other stuff. Series I've seen are: Mobile Suit Gundam Movie(2 outta 3, I know what happens from TV series) War in a Pocket(second favorite) 08th Ms team Stardust Memory Zeta Gundam(favorite) Char's Counter Attack F91 G-Savior(funniest one I've seen) G-gundam(half) Gundam X(favorite in alternative) Gundam Wing I hope I can add Gundam Seed to my list...along with Victory and ZZ.

2004-10-21, 14:25	Link #15
Nagare Ryouma Warrior Of Eternity Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Saotome Research Institute	I'm not sure about Seed when compared with UC, FC, AC, AW, CC timelines... But what I do know is that so far Seed: Destiny looks promising. Although we won't get the Tomino-san treatment, but it looks like we'll get the 'kill'em all' treatment from Fukuda-san. And it looks like NT's are still around... I just hope whatever Fukuda has in mind (of his) for the story of NT's won't cause an angry backlash by the UC fans. From my point of view, nothing is better then the UC timeline series.... Their just too dramatic, and it's hard to replace them, the mechs and the pilots. Even ZZ turned out pretty well in the middle.... since Tomino scrapped the whole idea and replaced it with his.... But accepting a new Gundam series is nice, as long as the story and everything is good. Can't comment much about Seed, since I honestly didn't like it too much. But Destiny is getting my attention, and a lot of it.... And were just talking about 2 EP's so far.....

2004-10-22, 00:59	Link #18
chibikit Lowly A-Kingdom flunkie Join Date: Nov 2003	Okay, let's see... As it has been said, the opinion of Gundam SEED depends strongly on who you ask. Some hardcore UC-ers will say that it's a horrible knock-off of MSG, while some hardcore CE fans will say that it's the best thing since sliced bread. SEED starts off with an "OMG! They stole the Gundams! Let's get it back!" sequence of events, which then follows the MSG plot idea of going back to main base on Earth but getting sidetracked for various reasons, which then follows the Gundam staple of big showdown in space, all while a bunch of manipulators manipulate each side for their own nefarious ends. Sounds unoriginal and ho-hum, yes? Well, it would be, if this were the whole point of the story. SEED, despite appearances, is mainly about friendship and the strain on it in times of war. This is most clearly seen in the Kira-Athrun dynamic (two childhood friends on opposing sides, with Athrun intent on bringing Kira to ZAFT) as well as Kira's primary motivation (he willingly fights to protect his friends on the ship, although he wishes he didn't have to). SEED also features strong and fairly believable character development, almost on par with Gundam X. Unlike most other Gundams, it's a drama show with a war in it, instead of a war show with character drama in it. SEED does have its shortcomings. It happily plods along developing things slowly at first, only to rush through things in the last few episodes - this was handled much better by Gundam X, which finished gracefully despite being axed down to 39 episodes. SEED also had a tendency to use a lot of standard clips of mecha firing and doing stuff, which got a little annoying after a while, but you don't usually notice it because the battles are full of tension. In conclusion, I'd recommend you watch SEED, especially if you intend to watch Destiny. You will need the backstory from SEED to understand the events in the new series.

2004-10-22, 01:29	Link #19
Syn13 Sui Yein Ng 13 Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Canada Age: 40	Very informative which is good but too bad for my torrent speed...10gb is gonna take a while but I'm in no rush anyway heh heh and if it really takes too long, then I'll just go out and get the complete DVD boxset. Couple of the annoying things I found annoying about Seed and Destiny is that use the stolen Gundam idea twice, and the Gundam vs Gundam thing...Its like for a Gundam series now, Gundam has to no equal unless its another Gundam. Durring my time watching Gundam, only 0083 was the one that I remembered had a Gundam stolen.

2004-10-22, 01:36	Link #20
chibikit Lowly A-Kingdom flunkie Join Date: Nov 2003	Well, think of it this way: what sensible military power wouldn't try to nick their opponents prototypes or plans if they could get away with it? Gundam-jacking makes a lot of sense; you deny your opponent the data they might gather from their prototype and you get a good look at the enemy's technology. At least the Gundam can only be defeated by a Gundam rule isn't very strong in SEED and Destiny, with the exception of the three final Gundams. A GuAIZ can cream Strike if the pilot is good enough, and Athrun did quite well against Gaia in that Zaku.