Game of Thrones

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

I don't know if he's disowned him officially in anyway.

Yeah, that wasn't like a formal schism or anything - more like a mutual snit.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Yeah, that wasn't like a formal schism or anything - more like a mutual snit.

I also don't think Tywin would let someone he literally disowned keep their hands on a Valayrian steel sword.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I would bet a ton of Valyrian steel he knows. He's talked wryly about keeping a lid on the "vicious lies" about Cersei and Jaime. Tywin is surely one of the smartest and most practical men in Westeros - there's no way he doesn't know what's going on.

While I don't dispute Tywin's intelligence or practicality, I also find him to be a fairly traditional man. More to the point, he is very controlling of what his children do, or at least did when still babes, so I find it hard to believe that he would even consider the idea that the children he raised would ever partake in incest, especially considering how messed up it made the Taegaryens (?).

Control is really the key thing here. Tywin wishes to control ever aspect of his children's life (even those he hates). So, the idea that Tywin would have either allowed or simply not cared about the incest seems preposterous, especially considering how damaging the sheer potentiality of said incest would be to the House's reputation. No, Tywin can't know or else the entire history of the series would be drastically different. I expect he views the information of incest as just awful rumours created to slander Joffery (or more specifically, the Lannisters) and create ill-will amongst the masses.

That being said, I expect that even if he learned about the incest right before Joffery's wedding, Tywin would have still gone through with everything and still attempted to complete his ambitions. The incest may be a direct blow against all of is traditions and beliefs, but he is still practical enough to attempt to salvage what remains.

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I think the interesting question is whether Tywin would still have hated Tyrion if he hadn't "killed" his mother during childbirth. Would he have been able to see past the physical and understand how brilliant Tyrion was if not for that tragedy?

The triumvarant of Tywin's children has always interested me, at least in how they emmulate their father. In many respects they each reflect a very specific aspect of Tywin's own character: Jaime represent the martial prowess, Cersei represent the ambition, and Tyrion represent the intelligence. At the same time, though, it is quite obvious just how the children are vastly different from Tywin, possible as a result of their mother or because they've decided to be purposefully different from their father.

That being said, I do not think Tywin could have seen beyond the physical nature of Tyrion's disability. The sheer shame of such a stigma in the Westero society would prevent Tywin from ever being able to accept Tyrion even if he hadn't "killed" his mother.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by james0246

While I don't dispute Tywin's intelligence or practicality, I also find him to be a fairly traditional man. More to the point, he is very controlling of what his children do, or at least did when still babes, so I find it hard to believe that he would even consider the idea that the children he raised would ever partake in incest, especially considering how messed up it made the Taegaryens (?).

I don't doubt that Tywinn didn't know about the adultery for the majority of it. He certainly wouldn't have tolerated Cersei doing something so outlandishly dangerous to the Lannister line. She wasn't just having an affair with Jamie. She was deliberately getting herself pregnant by him, while avoiding having legitimate children with Robert as much as possible. Tywin wouldn't have tolerated something that insanely dangerous.

OTOH, he has to be somewhat aware that something is going on by season 1. Tywinn overall seemed to have the Lannisters too ready to jump on a war footing in season 1 to have NO idea that something wasn't stirring up the hornets nest in kings landing related to the legitimacy of Jeoffrey's children. Especially since by all rights the Lannisters and the Starks SHOULD be thawing their icey relation with each-other by having Tywin's grandson married to Eddard Starks daughter. The feeling you get is that Ever since Jon Arryn made his investigations into Roberts bastards, the Lannisters have been sharpening their claws. And to get daddy Tywin to do that, Cersei and Jamie have to give him SOME reason to think that things are about to go astronomically tits up. Though I could certainly see them trying to hide what it was.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

OTOH, he has to be somewhat aware that something is going on by season 1. Tywinn overall seemed to have the Lannisters too ready to jump on a war footing in season 1 to have NO idea that something wasn't stirring up the hornets nest in kings landing related to the legitimacy of Jeoffrey's children. Especially since by all rights the Lannisters and the Starks SHOULD be thawing their icey relation with each-other by having Tywin's grandson married to Eddard Starks daughter. The feeling you get is that Ever since Jon Arryn made his investigations into Roberts bastards, the Lannisters have been sharpening their claws. And to get daddy Tywin to do that, Cersei and Jamie have to give him SOME reason to think that things are about to go astronomically tits up. Though I could certainly see them trying to hide what it was.

While there is some logic to what you are saying, it should be noted that Tywin and many other Lannisters only reaction to events is to destroy all opposition. In fact there is an entire song just about how far the Lannisters will go against any foe (the Rains of Castamere). When Tywin found out that Caetlyn, and through her potentially the Starks and Tullys, "attacked" the Lannisters by taking Tyrion hostage, he marshaled all of his men and went to war. He offered no chance for diplomacy, he simply saw a slight against his family and decided a show of force was the only solution.

In other words, I don't think Tywin had any real inkling that something was going on with his twins, rather he was challenege by the Starks and his first reaction to any challenge is to simply destroy the opposition no mater the severity of the insult.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by james0246

While there is some logic to what you are saying, it should be noted that Tywin and many other Lannisters only reaction to events is to destroy all opposition. In fact there is an entire song just about how far the Lannisters will go against any foe (the Rains of Castamere). When Tywin found out that Caetlyn, and through her potentially the Starks and Tullys, "attacked" the Lannisters by taking Tyrion hostage, he marshaled all of his men and went to war. He offered no chance for diplomacy, he simply saw a slight against his family and decided a show of force was the only solution.

In other words, I don't think Tywin had any real inkling that something was going on with his twins, rather he was challenege by the Starks and his first reaction to any challenge is to simply destroy the opposition no mater the severity of the insult.

I certainly don't doubt that Tywin would be willing to do some violent shit to maintain his family name, but...somehow that makes him come off as being just a little too half cocked. Cause without any of the palace backstabbing going on in Kings Landing after Robert died, Tywin would have been rushing into a head on conflict with both the North and the Riverlands without the support of the Iron Throne. That's dicey prospects, especially since Robert would likely view the Lannisters ravaging the Riverlands as a much greater breach of the peace than Catyln abducting his dwarf brother in law.


I dunno. This all comes off as incredibly half cocked if Tywin doesn't have an insurance policy already in motion in Kings Landing to make carrying out this war more viable. Especially since the punitive expedition ended up with this happening.

YouTube

https://youtu.be/uKB0ogglzGQ

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

I just don't see Tywin maneuvering himself into a situation like this without a contingency already in motion ready to deal with this kind of event. If Robert hadn't ended up dead and Ned dealt with in Kings Landing, the Lannisters would have been in a very precarious position.


Again. It just doesn't seem like Tywin would run into a situation like this where the plan consisted of "PUNISH OUR ENEMIES!"

[Guardian Enzo]

I don't know... All these arguments at their core boil down to one thing - Tywin is naive. And I don't buy that argument.

I think, in fact, that Tywin's persistent efforts to separate the twins physically are strong evidence he knows full well what's happening.

[Sheba]

I am also of the opinion that he knew what was going on and had been doing the equivalent of damage control. To publicly recognize his son and daughter's deeds will be a confession of weakness and failure from someone who built the image of a lord who takes shit from no one. Especially when he insisted a lot on how the image of his family is important.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Sheba

I am also of the opinion that he knew what was going on and had been doing the equivalent of damage control. To publicly recognize his son and daughter's deeds will be a confession of weakness and failure from someone who built the image of a lord who takes shit from no one. Especially when he insisted a lot on how the image of his family is important.

...well that and totally lose his family any legal right to the Iron Throne.

[Traece]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

...well that and totally lose his family any legal right to the Iron Throne.

I imagine Tywin would find the one awkward discussion in his adult life to have been the explanation about how Robert's predecessor wasn't actually his son, and was actually a full-blooded Lannister.

I've forgotten at this point, but is the new to-be-king actually Robert's? Regardless, I'm quite pleased to see that the new king isn't completely nuts, and will happily watch Tywin use him as a puppet so we can get more screen time with him. My one regret is that we wont get to see Tyrion make hilarious jokes about this new king.

If I've gained anything from this episode, it's that they should just use Daenerys as an episode ender. Every time she has a final scene (final scene of the episode, or final scene of the season), it's always a spectacle of unparalleled badassery. They needed to cap every episode off with her and ride the hype train into the far heavens.

[Sheba]

Tommen Lannister is like his elder brother, the fruit of Cersei's adultery. It's a miracle he is not wacko.

Yet.

[GDB]

Yeah, Tommen is actually pretty chill. Probably because his brother was such a freaking wacko, so being able to see it as a third party made it obvious that that kind of behavior is not good.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I don't know... All these arguments at their core boil down to one thing - Tywin is naive. And I don't buy that argument.

It's not so much naivety as it is the power Tywin believes he has and does have over his children. Tywin spent the formative years of his children's life terrorizing them, forcing them to obey his desires and whims, and trying to shape them as he saw fit. Consequently, I expect he believes that the sheer fear he has instilled within them would prevent them from ever disobeying him or doing something he would deem to be hazardous to the family (Case and point, both Cersei and Joffery could have, at any point, simply killed him for how he acted toward them; they had the power, but there will was beaten out of them).

To put it in perspective, when Tyrion married a whore, Tywin forced Tyrion to watch as the girl was forced to service an entire garrison of soldiers before breaking the marriage. While I doubt Cersei would ever have to endure such a horror, it is fairly obvious to me that Tywin would have punished his children in some horrific manor if he actually believed that they had committed incest (personally, I think Tywin would have dismembered Jaime further, forced a marriage on him, bred him like a stallion until a son was born, then simply kill Jaime afterwards and raise the new child as Tywin's own). He expects them to act a certain way, and when they don't...well, nothing good comes of his wrath.

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I think, in fact, that Tywin's persistent efforts to separate the twins physically are strong evidence he knows full well what's happening.

What persistent effort? Tywin has done nothing more than what any other prominent and ambitious Lord would have done in a similar situation. Cersei can still breed and she is attractive, so he wants her to pump out more political alliances; Jaime is supposed to be the heir and he is certainly no longer a knight, so he wants him shipped back home. Neither of those options require any knowledge or even speculation concerning incest. They are common sense for a man like Tywin.

[Xagzan]

GoT keeps reminding me why it is the best Drama (if we separate TV into the binary of Drama and Comedy) show I've ever seen. Although, it probably helps that I like medieval/fantasy setting.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Xagzan

GoT keeps reminding me why it is the best Drama (if we separate TV into the binary of Drama and Comedy) show I've ever seen. Although, it probably helps that I like medieval/fantasy setting.

When you see the cultural phenomenon it had become and the critical acclaim it is getting, it made some of the earlier negative reviews all the more hilarious. In a "oh boy, that guy is so clueless."

[sunset]

Originally Posted by Traece

If I've gained anything from this episode, it's that they should just use Daenerys as an episode ender. Every time she has a final scene (final scene of the episode, or final scene of the season), it's always a spectacle of unparalleled badassery. They needed to cap every episode off with her and ride the hype train into the far heavens.

Agreed.

Also, I drink from every scene featuring the Onion Knight, Liam Cunningham is six shades of awesome.

[HayashiTakara]

I enjoyed the desecration of Jeoffrey's corpse, nothing better than forcing sex on a dead boys mom by his corpse, lol

Oh little finger, why doesn't your appearance surprise me? I'm just glad that Sanza is safe for now.

I feel that Sam just made a massive mistake, I bet that creepy wench that was harassing that wildling chick (forgot her name) is going to do something.

Well Tommen is a good kid, obviously Tywin favors him more, most likely cause he'll be easier to mold.

[Guardian Enzo]

Tywin knows. Believe what you will, but half of King's Landing does.

In any case, I strongly disapprove of the changes Weiss and Benioff made to the sex scene, effectively turning it into a rape. I really wonder where they're going here, as it seems to undercut much of Jamie's development.

[TooPurePureBoy]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

In any case, I strongly disapprove of the changes Weiss and Benioff made to the sex scene, effectively turning it into a rape. I really wonder where they're going here, as it seems to undercut much of Jamie's development.

I completely agree 100%.

[Artful Dodger]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

I enjoyed the desecration of Jeoffrey's corpse, nothing better than forcing sex on a dead boys mom by his corpse, lol

I really didn't like what Jaime did, pretty horrible. I really wanted to be a fan of his, and thought his experiences would humble him and make him into a better man(I like redemption development), but I guess I keep forgetting that this is the asshole that pushed a little kid out a window.

Oh little finger, why doesn't your appearance surprise me? I'm just glad that Sanza is safe for now.

lol I'm so nervous for poor Sansa when she's around that guy. He definitely has some plans, as he always shows such an eerie fondness for her. Originally he wanted to wed her to gain control of the north, and I don't think even with all his spies that he knows about the other brother who is still alive yet(nor does the north know of her marriage to Tyrion?).

Well Tommen is a good kid, obviously Tywin favors him more, most likely cause he'll be easier to mold.

I laughed when Cersei told him this isn't the time or place, and he just kept right on with a smirk and even rubbed it in saying "You're brother wasn't a wise king, he wasn't a good king either." lol, I loved the look on Cersei's face when she couldn't rebut with one of her cutting remarks.