2013-02-07, 20:57 | Link #1541 |
Gamilas Falls
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Ship to ship combat ranges should be within the 1 or maybe 2 light second range, though most instances of combat in the show seem to be measured in either kilometers or even meters (clear visual range). The Gamilas missile attack on the Comet Empire fleet seemed to be outside of normal visual range, though still less than a light second away. Probably in the 10,000 to 30,000 km range I'm guessing.
Given the nature of the distances the battles seem to normally be fought at, high speed combat craft seem viable for force projection beyond normal combat ranges, or for either planetary missions, or for operations "beyond the horizon" if one is in the area of a system of planets and moons using the moons to cover the smaller crafts approach. Yes I know people will say the heat signature will make it impossible to hide, but that requires one to be focusing on a very small area of space to see it. Also that the argument that fighters are worthless due to FTL drives or the expense of the craft and pilots verse just building another battleship which would be more useful. Also the concept that the only reason to have carriers and fighters in naval warfare is because of the two different mediums (air and water), which does not exist when everything is space. (you might have guessed I had this argument at a game once. The conclusion was that space mines were a silly idea, but fighters could be thought of as Fast Attack Craft or Torpedo Boats, as some pre-World War I battleships would sometimes carry small torpedo boats with them to their patrol areas).
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Last edited by Ithekro; 2013-02-07 at 21:08. |
2013-02-07, 22:31 | Link #1542 | |||||
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I should point out that I'm not criticizing Yamato for being unrealistic; it's Science Fantasy, I know the combat in is bullshit so it can do whatever it wants as long as it looks cool. I'm just talking about the practicality of space combat in the world we live in. Anyways some other thoughts. I kinda like how they seemed to incorporate some elements of the USN's modernization of their Iowas in the 1980s. Really like the VLS cells in what used to be the funnel. Also saw something about an experimental Alcuberrie drive. I like that idea, but the problem is the current models for the warp drive have it at only 10C, so it'd take about 15,000 years for it to reach Gamilas. I do like the idea though of the UN exceeding that, accidentally sending off a probe through warp that would collide with and obliterate one of Gamilas' colonies. |
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2013-02-07, 23:36 | Link #1543 |
Gamilas Falls
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The Alcuberrie Drive would be an interesting nod to modern day understanding of FTL travel possibilities. So far I don't think there has been any real mention of it in the show, though in Yamato III it would go a long way into explaining how a group of pioneers managed to arrive at Barnard's Star before Yamato should have been launched (pre-Wave Motion Engine times). Only happenstance has that ship's design as being remotely similar to a Football shaped vessel with a ring.
Perhaps if the production team that works on Yamato 2199 ever decide to tackle that story again, they might use such an experimental drive. Or they will come up with a more realistic timeline that allows for a civilian ship equipped with a Wave Motion Engine to leave Earth after Yamato is launched.
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2013-02-08, 00:20 | Link #1544 |
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Actually a friend and I had that idea that Earth could incite a war by accidentally slamming its first FTL probe into a planet; which obliterates it and damages that Federation's economy.
EDIT: Also anyone notice how Yamato is sort of the Moses story? Spoiler for This is a spoiler for the original show, it may not happen this way in this version:
Last edited by Scherzo09; 2013-02-08 at 00:41. |
2013-02-08, 03:13 | Link #1545 | ||||||||||
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Clearly they are nuclear powered and may be some form of high-yield ion engine. Much like the current NASA ion drives that have a lifespan of 43,000 hours with very little fuel compared to a rocket motor. Then there are the NASA plasma drives which are still only experimental, but show considerable promise for high-thurst, long-life technology for spaceflight. I'm not saying we have the techology to mimic SBY 2199 right now, but by the year 2199, what we now think of as only Science Fiction very well could become fact. With science it is unwise to say "NEVER" or call something "IMPOSSIBLE." Quote:
G-limits could easily be overcome through advanced compensators, and/or antigravity systems since G-force is dependent on gravity, mass, and velocity. Nullify or counteract the force of gravity and you could in theory counteract the effect of G-forces. In Space Battleship Yamato 2199, this is obviously the case since the fighters are traveling at incredible speeds that without some type of g-force compensator the pilots would be mush in the cockpit. Quote:
Also, nuclear powered craft are not limited by fuel in the traditional aircraft sense or rocket motor. Look at the new ion engines of today or nuclear electric engines developed by NASA. Now, take that technology and advance it 100 years into the future. Quote:
We already have technology to mask heat sources of considerable temperature (like the heat-masking unit on the M1A1 Abrams tank). A highly advanced version of this could make a fighter seem invisible, especially in space where all a fighter need do is set its course, then thrust for the required number of seconds to build up the desired speed, then cut the engines. Quote:
A fighter in Yamato 2199 is probably not made of the same alloys, use the same type of engines, nor fuel as a rocket ship of today. It must be assumed that space fighter technology is feasible since the USAF is pursuing it. Quote:
As for what will be practical in our world, we're still far too primitive a civilization to know what is or what is not possible for future space warfare. Being a Kardeshev Type-0 civilization, we need to focus on actually getting off Earth and developing a realistic means of space propulsion to achieve Type-1 status. As you said, at this point, space fighters are nothing more than Science Fiction. Quote:
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Both sides attacked one another over the use of shuttles (in Star Trek) and space fighters (in Star Wars) in cosmic warfare. Personally, if the US mllitary sees it as viable for future warfare, then there is clearly a tactical, strategic, or force projection role they see for manned and/or unmanned space fighter units.
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2013-02-08, 19:39 | Link #1546 | |
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Spoiler for This is a spoiler for the original show, it may not happen this way in this version:
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2013-02-08, 21:28 | Link #1547 | |
Gamilas Falls
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Okay this will be interesting:
http://yamato2199.net/news.html#dreamteam Quote:
Also does it suggest that the TV version of the show will have a slightly different opening theme sung by this "Yamato - Allstars" grouping. Or just the regular theme song sung by all of them?
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2013-02-08, 23:42 | Link #1548 | |||||||||
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If anything, Space Destroyers or BBs would be better served using KEWs or 'Rods of God' from space to provide ground support for planetary actions, since that best utilizes the advantage of being in space. Quote:
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This pretty definitely shows how stealth in space is impossible. Quote:
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Anyways, probably don't want to dwell on this anymore since this is beside the point of Yamato's universe. Do you think the Ditz girl is going to be killed off in episode 11? |
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2013-02-09, 00:18 | Link #1549 |
Gamilas Falls
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There are always possibilities. New technologies make present day tactics irrelevant or even useless. Things that would be considered impossible or at least impractical become common accepted tactics.
In 1813 who would have thought it was a possible to send a small number of flying machines across the ocean to vaporize cities? Yet by 1999 that was possible. It is now 2013, who knows what will be considered possible in 2199? It may remain entirely impractical or impossible. But than again, we are we to judge?
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2013-02-09, 00:25 | Link #1550 | |
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Anyways, is it looking like we're getting a sort of Zeon-esqe deep inside look at how Gamilas works in this series? That's something I've rather liked about the show so far. |
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2013-02-09, 00:32 | Link #1551 |
Gamilas Falls
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As for Ditz. We know from the trailer she'll be in a dogfight with Yamamoto. From stills it suggests they send her on her way with a care package like Kodai did with the captured pilot in the original series.
However, at this time...having not seen the full episode...I don't know what the sequance of events is. We know Ditz says to tell Yamamoto she's a great pilot in the trailer, so the guess is that they have the dogfight and later send Ditz on her way to someplace. Since I doubt her fighter has a FTL drive of any sort, one would assume they drop her off near a "known" Gamilas base, or leave her someplace were she might be picked up as oppose to just someplace in deep space. Since she is the Admiral's daughter, one would assume they wouldn't add that plot point just to off her since that could have major implications down the road. Especially if she has a record of what happened to her ship from Yamato's radar array. The rest of the Gamilas seem to have things going on. We get Dommel's return from the front lines (which turns out to be "barbarians" from the White Comet Empire). We see his wife. Dessler calls Starsha at somepoint. There is Frakken the Wolf who hunts Yamato in his submarine. There is Celestria who seems to be the propaganda minister. And likely some other internal issues in the Empire (as not everyone can be happy of Dommel's popularity). Plus we already seem to have some politics going on between various Admirals and Generals seen in episodes 8 and 10. Plus we have Goer still.
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Last edited by Ithekro; 2013-02-09 at 01:07. |
2013-02-09, 01:45 | Link #1552 |
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It seems like a big deal is Gamilas' population demographics, with the conquered races feeling tired of behind oppressed. I wonder if Yamato's arrival in the Large Magellanic Cloud would incite a civil war.
Also I'm glad their introducing the players in the galactic scene off the bat, instead of just inventing them as they go along. Anyone else think Ditz's space fighter looks like an Me-262? |
2013-02-09, 02:20 | Link #1555 | |||||||||||
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A chemical rocket would be required with today's tech, sure, but we're talking about projecting our technology some 186 years into the future. Considering what our technology was 186 years ago, you can see how the technological curve would certainly produce far better space propulsion than we have now. Unless we assume that our current scientific knowledge will stagnate and we will not have any future 'break throughs.' I hope that's not the case. Quote:
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However, since military combat goals have a wide range of requirements already, I can imagine that gamut being expanded even further for space combat. That will require a multi-mission combat unit such as a space fighter IMO. Quote:
I'm not arguing with you. I thought we were just having a fun little discussion about the pros and cons of space fighter use? Did I miss something? As I said, under current theories, sure, a workable space fighter concept would be very difficult without the ability to protect the pilot from the g-forces involved. Space fighters would, in theory, make for a very inexpensive way to defend a spacecraft, and/or project force without risking a very expensive Capital ship or escort. It is why we have aircraft carriers in the first place. It allows us to project force to anywhere on Earth via an oceanborne airport. The same military goal could be achieved with space fighters. Granted the science involved in actually getting such a weapon system to work would be difficult by today's standards, but what about 200 years from now? Quote:
However, they do provide a high thrust-to-weight ratio compared to current chemical rocket motors and improved/more-advanced versions could provide the necessary propulsion for the kind of small, one-or-two man, high speed fighter we see so often in science fiction. Quote:
Interesting website, but I disagree with many of his assumptions about the limitations of future science and/or technology. Besides a gent over at ScienceBlogs points out the flaws in their article on stealth in space being impossible. As most people there stated in the comments, the speeds being traveled would make IR detection pointless since the heat particles aren't moving faster than your craft is, you'd be long gone from the point of detection by the time any sensor saw the heat to begin with. Add to this the new technology of infrared masking of the IR wave form and you start seeing that stealth in space is actually possible without violating any laws of physics or thermodynamics. Hell, cooling baffles that disperse the heat particles out the exhaust will cause rapid cooling in the frigid temperatures of space making the heat signature considerably smaller and cooler even for a plasma engine generating 572-662K (Kelvin) of heat for 1000 seconds to achieve maximum thrust (and that's with NASA's VASIMR of today). However, you are absolutely correct about any rocket engine using chemical thrust, and a nuclear rocket would be like a spotlight in a dark room. It generates heat of 2400-2600K (exhaust from hydrogen), so it is considerably hotter than a plasma or ion drive and thus dissipation time is longer making detection much greater. Now imagine miltitary technology of 186 years from now after the current crop of Ion and Plasma drives are refined (assuming they're still in use and haven't been replaced by something better). Assuming the military is attempting to limit detection for space warfare, they are going to be looking for both cooler exhaust and reduced light from the emission. Granted the light from the exhaust might be seen (depending on the propulsion system), but without the IR wave stealth does become possible. In other words, use an electronic countermeasure that masks infrared since that is what is being detected by passive sensors. The heat generated by the spacecraft doesn't matter to an infrared sensor, it is the wave signal that is picked up. Jam that and the infrared sensor will not see the heat at all, thus masking the vehicle. Quote:
The idea that only KEW, missile, or laser weaponry is feasable in space warfare from Capital ships is short sighted in my opinion. Since we haven't seen the application of any of these systems in practice, it is all speculation at this point. Using the argument you're making, a missile or KEW becomes useless if energy-weapons traveling at near light-speed are being used since no missile or KEW is going to be able to dodge/evade such a weapon if the weapon can be seen coming. Both would suffer from the same problems as a space fighter would. Quote:
Science Fantasy is actually a genre in and of itself. Michael Moorecock's Hawkmoon series, China Mieville's Embassy Town (and other books), John Carter of Mars, or Star Wars would classify as such. Space Opera, at least attempts to incorporate scientific theory into it (though again with varying degrees of reality mixed with fantasy, as you said). Like Halo, Star Trek, Avatar, Alien series, Flash Gordon, or Space Battleship Yamato 2199. Science Fiction (Hard SF) would be something more like Clarke's 2001 or Heinlein's "Have Suit will travel." In other words, there are varying degrees away from Hard SF with Hard SF having almost no deviation from current scientific theory, Space Opera having some, and Science Fantasy having really no scientific basis whatsoever. Quote:
I'm not so quick to dismiss the concept of space fighters in favor of KEWs or missiles. I do believe all will be used in conjunction with each other as the mission parameters require in future combat. Quote:
I was referring to the concept of a space fighter system period, not the X-37. Quote:
Anyways, you are probably right, we shouldn't derail this too far into a private conversation about space fighters. I hope Melda (?) survives. She is an interesting character that I wouldn't mind seeing develop further into the series. Maybe even see her become another love interest for Kodai? Just a thought I'm throwing out there.
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2013-02-09, 02:22 | Link #1556 |
Gamilas Falls
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Unless Yamato starts designing some carried craft or they have some flashback, I doubt it. At least until they return to Earth. Or somehow some humans managed to get their hands on a captured Gamilas warship and are using that in parallel with Yamato. Or stick a captured Gamilas Wave Motion Engine into an older Earth design.
Since it took them a year to build Yamato (a newly built ship) with a wave motion engine and they had to get at least one part imported from Iscandar, it is doubtful they would have a second ship ready until Yamato is at least on her way home. If they can figure out how to build a Wave Motion Core of their own design in the interim. If they follow up with another series, than sure there should be a lot of new Earth ships after Yamato gets back home.
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2013-02-09, 02:28 | Link #1557 |
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Apparently there's a new version of the theme that'll be coming out.
In this series is it stated that it's a new ship? I kinda liked the idea that it wasn't literally the hull of the original Yamato, but merely used the facade of the wreck to hide wholly new ship. Well it seems with what Kaoru is doing, the administration back on earth doesn't have much faith in the Yamato finding a Radiation Scrubber device and seems to still be continuing the Izumo plan as a contingency. That makes me think they might have more FTL ships waiting in the wings. |
2013-02-09, 02:37 | Link #1558 | ||
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The EDF fleet would look really awesome using the new animation. Quote:
Spoiler for just in case anyone thinks this should be hidden:
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2013-02-09, 02:54 | Link #1559 |
Gamilas Falls
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It was stated that the wreck on the surface was camouflage so the Gamilas spy planes and ships wouldn't notice the construction of a large warship near the planet's surface. It was up that far so it could be launched safety without too much risk to the underground cities (cause they have no idea just what the engine would do, nor how much of an explosion it would have if it failed).
Side note: in this version, where did Kirishama dock? In an underground berth of some kind. Some hard dock, or wheels? I doubt they have a giant pool of water for her to land in anymore. So it can be assumed that they might have a shipyard down there. Though Kirishama doesn't stay long as it's in orbit before Yamato is. Izumo Plan seems to have been for a Sleeper Ship. Though I won't rule out the idea of an earlier FTL drive system (Alcuberrie Drive) because it is possible, though the Gamilas have no knowledge of any Earth FTL ships when Ganz reported that Yamato had warped to Jupiter (and up the chain of command, the same reaction). It might have been a parallel plan to the Yamato Plan when they received the Wave Motion Engine plans in 2198 (or maybe late 2197) to build an FTL escape ship. However future WME equipped ships will need Wave Motion Cores, and unless Earth industry can build their own, they will only have Yamato until she can return home with more. The Izumo-Yamato Plan mess will likely come to a head at somepoint in the voyage. You have the designated mission of going to Iscandar and back within one Earth year, and you have the probably more realistic goal of finding an Earth-like planet (or at least a habitable planet) to settle some humans on to continue the species. With the WME and at least some of the way cleared of Gamilas ships and bases, they could ferry survivors to the new world at least until Earth's population dies (and even then they could use non-FTL ships to move more of the population to the remains of Mars Colony and Pluto Base to give them at least a little more time for Yamato to shuttle people back and forth). Though what exactly is to stop the Gamilas from taking over or destroying that colony apart from Yamato is unclear. One thing of interest though. Sasha's spacecraft sped into the Solar System at extremely high speeds. Somewhere around 25 times the speed of light for her to have made it from Neptune to Mars in ten minutes on January 17th, 2199. No telling what happened to Yurisha's craft at this time (maybe episode 14 has clues about that), though one imagines it was of a similar type to Sasha's.
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Last edited by Ithekro; 2013-02-09 at 03:06. |
2013-02-09, 03:20 | Link #1560 |
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I saw another thing note that it doesn't make any sense for the Kirishima to be able to fly through Earth's atmosphere. It doesn't have any lifting surfaces and it's pre-Yamato, so it's not like it's floating on a bed of EM particles.
Honestly I felt the ETA in that episode was a bit of a flub on their part because an object moving at 25 times the speed of light, well, it wouldn't be visible. I sort of wonder what the actual time scale is during Operation M, since relays between the Earth and Pluto would take several hours because again there wouldn't have been FTL comms Pre-Yamato. On that note, reminds me of something else I was thinking about; why the Heliopause would block comms. IRL there doesn't seem to be much of a problem relaying to Voyager 2 as it leaves the Solar System, and obviously the Gamilans can communicate fine. I've come up with an idea: assuming the idea that Sol has a Bow Shock (It doesn't but they wouldn't have known that when making the show), the interstellar comms would blueshifted due to being accelerated beyond the speed of light and therefore hit and bounce off the Bow Shock. Either Gamilans have stronger equipment on both ends, or they use some form of Quantum Entanglement to communicate. EDIT: Oh and if there's this idea that Earth struck Gamilas first, at least with Gamilan propaganda, wouldn't that mean at least some of them believe Earth has been FTL capable? Last edited by Scherzo09; 2013-02-09 at 04:01. |
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