2013-02-11, 17:51 | Link #141 | |
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
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Nagato arguably terrorized and then finally subjugated an entire nation. He systematically slaughtered his entire opposition down to the babies in their cradles. He was not merely a weak or flawed individual. Itachi thought the only way to peace was the complete annihilation of an entire group of people. He committed genocide in hopes of stabilizing a region of the world. He was not merely a weak or flawed individual. They, and others, may have had high ideals or end goals that were idyllic, but they still committed truly bad acts, sometimes even evil, in order to attain their goals. Now I agree that you do not have to be "evil" to be a bad guy (thank you Ralph ), but mass murder is a bit different. They were ultimately bad people. Last edited by james0246; 2013-02-11 at 18:41. |
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2013-02-11, 18:20 | Link #143 | ||
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
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As it is, I still am unsure if I would classify either as being "good" (mass murder is a little hard to wipe away, even if you do have the power to resurrect many of those that have died or you're really really sorry). (btw, I do agree that both admitted to being failures.) |
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2013-02-11, 18:46 | Link #144 |
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 39
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Hm... It's hard to explain what makes kicking a dog worse than mass murder. Maybe it's one of those things that you either "get" or "don't get". Some people here should get what I mean tho.
It's a personality-defining thing. |
2013-02-11, 18:58 | Link #147 | |
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Join Date: Mar 2009
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Conversely, whatever you may think of the whole "one death a tragedy, a million a statistic" thing, in fiction it actually does apply. Why do you think everybody was annoyed during the war that none of the named good guys were dying, just nameless ninja? We didn't know any of those casualties. We didn't care about them, or have any sort of connection with them, not even through one of the characters we do know and love. They weren't even real people, just narrative bowling pins for the villains. That's pretty much the difference. |
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2013-02-11, 19:11 | Link #148 |
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hidden Village of Sake
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By james0246's definition since Naruto changed them they are now good. In case of Nagato it was clear that he was bad before he changed his mind in the end. But in case of Itachi it's quite debatable, but going by james' strict definition he was bad. By debatable i mean killing some people to prevent the death of many more people is debatable (for example dropping the atomic bombs on japan killed a lot but saved many more on both sides), the 1st hokage or Naruto wouldn't kill anyone for this reason while someone like the 2nd hokage would do it.
I guess summoning Rin with Edo Tensei would be enough to change Obito's mind, but i don't see anyone doing that, unless Kabuto changes sides after he learned his lesson from Itachi. If Kabuto somehow knew who is Tobi then having Rin could be his fail-safe in case Tobi tried to kill him and everything else failed. |
2013-02-11, 19:54 | Link #150 | |
Smurfee
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Caribbean
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Oh and speaking of powerless, they were, they had no Uchiha clan member involved/representation in the governing of Konoha's affairs, hence they had no voice or input into the runninngs of konoha (a village they had a hand in forming). That's what the Military Police was for, remember? They didn't revolt to get real estate, they just wanted the village elders to hear them out. And with regards to the nine-tails attack, keyword: suspected, the clan didn't get a fair trail/hearing, they knew they were already being prejudiced by the village elders. This was due to the mistrust already planted by Tobirama and later on fueled by the false accusations of the 9-tails attack which led to Danzo's massacre order to gain their eyes for his nefarious ends. so I'm guessing your'e okay with mass murder when one clan member does something that his clan wasn't remotely responsible for but since they're from the same clan, it's all the same to you: peter pay's for paul paul pay's for all I'm sure if Harishima would've reigned a little longer, the Uchiha might've actually gotten proper representation, learn to trust the Senju clan more, close old wounds and actually got along. Why else would Harishima try to call out his brother on bad-talking the clan. After all, it's this same evil clan that outsed their own maniac leader Madara for this guy. Tobirama did what he did because he lived through those war-torn era battling with the Uchiha Clan back & forth and still didn't trust them, the agreement was made between Madara and Harishima (I'm sure Tobirama didn't like it since he still sees them as oil & water). Which is why he seems prejudiced to me and I can also see where Danzo got this ideal of the village stability over others, it was from him. If you wanna call yourself a bigoted hater that's fine by me but think before you actually post and don't get blinded by the haterade |
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2013-02-11, 21:11 | Link #151 | |
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Command center, the ship's bridge
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The two most powerful clans in the ninja world eventually made peace and created a village together, yet the Senju ended up holding the top-tier positions in the government. Despite being a position of authority, the police force's power was relatively limited and kept the Uchiha clan from participating in the top-level governing the affairs of the village, which they felt entitled to considering they were a founding clan of Konoha. This was one of the major causes for the gradual resentment brewing between them; they did not plot to overthrow the village because they resided on undesirable real estate. Personally, I don't completely condemn Tobirama for his choices, yet I don't believe they were the best possible. On the other hand, the author seems to be sending obvious hints to us that Tobirama was wrong, especially considering his resentful, prejiduced attitude towards the Uchiha, and Hashirama's passionate disaproval. |
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2013-02-11, 22:40 | Link #153 | |
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Join Date: Nov 2011
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i dont think he was. if anything, he has changed naruto into a better leader |
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2013-02-12, 00:26 | Link #154 | ||||||
Endless
Join Date: May 2004
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You're also assuming that the village runs on a representative government; it doesn't. From what we have seen it is a dictatorship. The elders advise the kage but the kage has the last say. Or the dynamos do. So all your talk about "having a say" is rubbish. I said real estate because the only indication that they were segregated was that they were on the outskirts of town. Quote:
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You base your arguement on what again? Democracy? Something that doesn't exist in this universe. Even the kages are selected by the Dynamos. |
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2013-02-12, 01:27 | Link #155 | |||||
Smurfee
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Caribbean
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Plus, the village already had ANBU Black Ops/ANBU Root Division who were alot higher status & rank, the Military police looked like Mall cops compared to them so they still weren't on good standing. Quote:
Hell, Itachi even admitted to Sasuke that this whole situation could've been handled better but he messed up by doing things on his own and with little time on his hands. Quote:
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P.S. Tobirama didn't trust them to begin with so what "trust" Tobirama placed on them are u talking bout? Last edited by El_Negro; 2013-02-12 at 01:51. |
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2013-02-12, 04:57 | Link #158 | |||||
Endless
Join Date: May 2004
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Tobirama trusted the Uchiha to safeguard the peace. And yet they became a cancer. He wanted them to use their power to make their home better. Instead they decided to revolt. He was being naive for thinking they could be appeased. They can't. Give them a 1000 bucks and they wonder why you didn't give them 1 million. |
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2013-02-12, 07:45 | Link #160 | ||
The Ironman
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Likewise, the feelings towards the Uchiha didn't seem to be bitter as a whole. Really it seems like the opposite. They were admired, or at least respected. Sasuke's classmates whisper in awe that he's from the great Uchiha clan. And Kakashi mentions in the Gaiden how the Uchiha are considered a genius clan. Oro only points out that police forces tend to draw resentment from the population, but if there was actually negative feelings towards the Uchiha among the general population, we never see it. "Dynamo" sounds much more awesome Quote:
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