[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[Klashikari]

Yes, that happens when Akasaka barges in the fray to save Rika.
Actually, when you -destructive- is playing as the BGM, the said scene has a mutiplied impact due to the onscreen text (see Rias post from episode 22).
The anime scene looks extremely watered down in comparison. (well, MOST scenes in the anime version are watered down anyway)

That said, unlike higurashi, the text is a prime element in the meta world for Umineko. leaving them out would be suicidal.

[chronotrig]

I think it might be helpful to have a list of all the ep4 red text in one place. Let me warn you that this will spoil the entire game.

Spoiler for red text for all of ep4:

...and those tea parties were just deadly.
I've put lines for the previous games in separate sections and removed duplicates. But I did include similar lines if they are even slightly different.

Spoiler for chapter 17:

Battler thinking:
6 years ago for me, the person called Beatrice did not exist.

Beatrice talking:
The crime I am now demanding that you remember is not something between Ushiromiya Battler and Beatrice.
Ushiromiya Battler committed a crime. (or sin)
From your crime, a person died.
Due to your crime, many humans died on this island. No one escaped, they all died.

Beatrice talking: I am the Golden Witch Beatrice. And I opened this game in order to fight with Ushiromiya Kinzo's grandson, Ushiromiya Battler.
Battler talking: Ushiromiya Battler's mother is Ushiromiya Asumu. My name is Ushiromiya Battler. Ushiromiya Battler was born from Ushiromiya Asumu.
Battler cannot say 'I was born from Ushiromiya Asumu.'
Beatrice talking: You are not Ushiromiya Asumu's son. (speaking to meta Battler)

Spoiler for chapter 19:

Beatrice: This is my Golden Land. A world where any magic other than my own definitely cannot exist.
Beatrice: With my magic, Sakutarou could not be revived. Your stuffed animal is a special stuffed animal. The only one in the world, made by Rosa for her daughter's birthday.

Ange: Ushiromiya Battler is not Ushiromiya Asumu's son. Only Kinzo's grandson Battler is qualified to be your opponent.
Battler: Ange is my younger sister. You can't trust anything, you can't trust any words that aren't red...!!

Ange: Come back quickly, Onii-chan!! Don't leave me all alone!!! It's me, Ange...!! No one came back, not Mom, not Dad, not you, Onii-chan!! I'm lonely!! I beg you, come back quickly! That's right, I'm Ange!! The Ange of the world where no one comes back...!! My entire family didn't come back from Rokkenjima on that day...!! The witch before your eyes stole my whole family, even you, Onii-chan...! Only you can finish her, Onii-chan!! Finish her, Onii-chan...!! And take our family back!! Then, ......come back to me......!!!

The rest is from the tea parties.

Spoiler for EP1:

Regarding the closed room with Eva and Hideyoshi.
Beatrice: The two were killed by other people (or homocide)
It is not the case that after the creation of the closed room, one committed suicide after committing murder! Furthermore, the one who carried out the murders did so in the same room as the victims! No method exists for the person who carried out murder to do so from outside the room!

Regarding Kanon in the boiler room.
Beatrice: All survivors have alibis!! That also includes the dead!! In other words, no humans or dead people on the island could have killed Kanon! Kanon did not commit suicide.
Lambda: Kanon did not die in an accident.

Regarding the deaths of Kumasawa, Genji, and Nanjo.
Beatrice: Maria, who was in the same room, did not kill them! And, of course, they were killed by other people! Regarding corpses with unknown identities, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!
Lambda: Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not murderers.

Regarding Natsuhi's death.
Beatrice: Natsuhi was killed by another person. There were absolutely no corpses of unknown identity, and all survivors had alibis! The bullet buried in Natsuhi's head was not fired by Natsuhi's gun!
Lambda: The thing that shot Natsuhi was not a trap, but a real shooting murder with a readied gun and a pulled trigger!

Spoiler for EP2:

Regarding the first twilight in the chapel.
Beatrice: From the time Maria received her key, until the next day, at the instant when Rosa opened the letter, the key did not pass through anyone's hands!! Other than Kinzo's study, no door with an auto-lock exists! By the time the six were found, they had all already died. All were killed by other people! All six were genuine victims, and were not related to each others' murders! No mutual murders existed!! No one was hiding in that chapel. Therefore, the 'staying shut in' closed room doesn't work.
Lambda: When the six who were in the chapel were killed, the culprit was in the chapel!

Regarding Kanon's double who 'killed' Kumasawa and Nanjo.
Beatrice: They would definitely not mistake another person for Kanon.
Lambda: The only one who can use Kanon's name is the person himself. A different human cannot use that name!

Regarding Natsuhi's closed room with George and Shannon.
Beatrice: All of the master keys were under Rosa's control.
Lambda: After Rosa came to control the master keys, not once did they leave her hands! Except for the time that she lent it to Battler to unlock Natsuhi's room.

Spoiler for EP3:

Regarding the 6 closed rooms chain in ep3.
Beatrice: All five master keys were found in the pockets of the 5 servants! The keys for the individual rooms were in envelopes alongside the corpses! In other words, all keys related to the linked closed rooms were shut up inside the linked closed rooms!! There was no way to return the keys from the outside using things like cracks in the doors, cracks in the windows, or air vents. All of them had signs of fatal wounds that resembled gunshot wounds! Murder from outside the room was impossible!! And I'll say even more in red! When the 5 people other than Kinzo were murdered, the murderer was definitely in the same room! I already said at the time that non of them committed suicide!!

Regarding George leaving the guesthouse to 'save' Shannon.
Beatrice: George did not go down the guesthouse staircase. All doors and windows leadng to the outside were locked from the inside. Furthermore, it is impossible to lock any of these from the outside.

Spoiler for EP4:

Beatrice: Kanon is dead. He was the first to die in Kyrie's group of 5. In other words, he is the ninth victim. All who were at the family conference acknowledged Kinzo's existence! No person would mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo for someone else by sight. No matter what the disguise, they would not mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo!

Regarding the end of the game.
Beatrice: Ushiromiya Battler. After this point in time, I will kill you. And right now, there is no one on this island other than you. The only one alive on this island is you. Nothing outside the island can interfere in any way. You are all alone on this island. And of course, I am not you. However, I am here now, and will kill you.

Spoiler for all games:

Beatrice: Kinzo's life or death status at the start of each of the 4 games are all the same. The setup was not different for the fourth game alone. At the start of all games, Kinzo is already dead! Until now, I have stated that no more than 18 people exist on this island. I will lower this by one for Kinzo!! There are no more than 17 humans existing on this island!! This includes an 18th person. In other words, no 18th person X exists!! This applies to all games!!!

[Sterling01]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

I think it might be helpful to have a list of all the ep4 red text in one place. Let me warn you that this will spoil the entire game.

Spoiler for red text for all of ep4:

...and those tea parties were just deadly.
I've put lines for the previous games in separate sections and removed duplicates. But I did include similar lines if they are even slightly different.

Spoiler for chapter 17:

Battler thinking:
6 years ago for me, the person called Beatrice did not exist.

Beatrice talking:
The crime I am now demanding that you remember is not something between Ushiromiya Battler and Beatrice.
Ushiromiya Battler committed a crime. (or sin)
From your crime, a person died.
Due to your crime, many humans died on this island. No one escaped, they all died.

Beatrice talking: I am the Golden Witch Beatrice. And I opened this game in order to fight with Ushiromiya Kinzo's grandson, Ushiromiya Battler.
Battler talking: Ushiromiya Battler's mother is Ushiromiya Asumu. My name is Ushiromiya Battler. Ushiromiya Battler was born from Ushiromiya Asumu.
Battler cannot say 'I was born from Ushiromiya Asumu.'
Beatrice talking: You are not Ushiromiya Asumu's son.

Spoiler for chapter 19:

Beatrice: This is my Golden Land. A world where any magic other than my own definitely cannot exist.
Beatrice: With my magic, Sakutarou could not be revived. Your stuffed animal is a special stuffed animal. The only one in the world, made by Rosa for her daughter's birthday.

Ange: Ushiromiya Battler is not Ushiromiya Asumu's son. Only Kinzo's grandson Battler is qualified to be your opponent.
Battler: Ange is my younger sister. You can't trust anything, you can't trust any words that aren't red...!!

Ange: Come back quickly, Onii-chan!! Don't leave me all alone!!! It's me, Ange...!! No one came back, not Mom, not Dad, not you, Onii-chan!! I'm lonely!! I beg you, come back quickly! That's right, I'm Ange!! The Ange of the world where no one comes back...!! My entire family didn't come back from Rokkenjima on that day...!! The witch before your eyes stole my whole family, even you, Onii-chan...! Only you can finish her, Onii-chan!! Finish her, Onii-chan...!! And take our family back!! Then, ......come back to me......!!!

The rest is from the tea parties.

Spoiler for EP1:

Regarding the closed room with Eva and Hideyoshi.
Beatrice: The two were killed by other people (or homocide)
It is not the case that after the creation of the closed room, one committed suicide after committing murder! Furthermore, the one who carried out the murders did so in the same room as the victims! No method exists for the person who carried out murder to do so from outside the room!

Regarding Kanon in the boiler room.
Beatrice: All survivors have alibis!! That also includes the dead!! In other words, no humans or dead people on the island could have killed Kanon! Kanon did not commit suicide.
Lambda: Kanon did not die in an accident.

Regarding the deaths of Kumasawa, Genji, and Nanjo.
Beatrice: Maria, who was in the same room, did not kill them! And, of course, they were killed by other people! Regarding corpses with unknown identities, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!
Lambda: Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not murderers.

Regarding Natsuhi's death.
Beatrice: Natsuhi was killed by another person. There were absolutely no corpses of unknown identity, and all survivors had alibis! The bullet buried in Natsuhi's head was not fired by Natsuhi's gun!
Lambda: The thing that shot Natsuhi was not a trap, but a real shooting murder with a readied gun and a pulled trigger!

Spoiler for EP2:

Regarding the first twilight in the chapel.
Beatrice: From the time Maria received her key, until the next day, at the instant when Rosa opened the letter, the key did not pass through anyone's hands!! Other than Kinzo's study, no door with an auto-lock exists! By the time the six were found, they had all already died. All were killed by other people! All six were genuine victims, and were not related to each others' murders! No mutual murders existed!! No one was hiding in that chapel. Therefore, the 'staying shut in' closed room doesn't work.
Lambda: When the six who were in the chapel were killed, the culprit was in the chapel!

Regarding Kanon's double who 'killed' Kumasawa and Nanjo.
Beatrice: They would definitely not mistake another person for Kanon.
Lambda: The only one who can use Kanon's name is the person himself. A different human cannot use that name!

Regarding Natsuhi's closed room with George and Shannon.
Beatrice: All of the master keys were under Rosa's control.
Lambda: After Rosa came to control the master keys, not once did they leave her hands! Except for the time that she lent it to Battler to unlock Natsuhi's room.

Spoiler for EP3:

Regarding the 6 closed rooms chain in ep3.
Beatrice: All five master keys were found in the pockets of the 5 servants! The keys for the individual rooms were in envelopes alongside the corpses! In other words, all keys related to the linked closed rooms were shut up inside the linked closed rooms!! There was no way to return the keys from the outside using things like cracks in the doors, cracks in the windows, or air vents. All of them had signs of fatal wounds that resembled gunshot wounds! Murder from outside the room was impossible!! And I'll say even more in red! When the 5 people other than Kinzo were murdered, the murderer was definitely in the same room! I already said at the time that non of them committed suicide!!

Regarding George leaving the guesthouse to 'save' Shannon.
Beatrice: George did not go down the guesthouse staircase. All doors and windows leadng to the outside were locked from the inside. Furthermore, it is impossible to lock any of these from the outside.

Spoiler for EP4:

Beatrice: Kanon is dead. He was the first to die in Kyrie's group of 5. In other words, he is the ninth victim. All who were at the family conference acknowledged Kinzo's existence! No person would mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo for someone else. No matter what the disguise, they would not mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo!

Regarding the end of the game.
Beatrice: Ushiromiya Battler. After this point in time, I will kill you. And right now, there is no one on this island other than you. The only one alive on this island is you. Nothing outside the island can interfere in any way. You are all alone on this island. And of course, I am not you. However, I am here now, and will kill you.

Spoiler for all games:

Beatrice: Kinzo's life or death status at the start of each of the 4 games are all the same. The setup was not different for the fourth game alone. At the start of all games, Kinzo is already dead! Until now, I have stated that no more than 18 people exist on this island. I will lower this by one for Kinzo!! There are no more than 17 humans existing on this island!! This includes an 18th person. In other words, no 18th person X exists!! This applies to all games!!!

Deadly red text is deadly...

[Licky]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

I think it might be helpful to have a list of all the ep4 red text in one place. Let me warn you that this will spoil the entire game.

Spoiler for red text for all of ep4:

...and those tea parties were just deadly.
I've put lines for the previous games in separate sections and removed duplicates. But I did include similar lines if they are even slightly different.

Spoiler for chapter 17:

Battler thinking:
6 years ago for me, the person called Beatrice did not exist.

Beatrice talking:
The crime I am now demanding that you remember is not something between Ushiromiya Battler and Beatrice.
Ushiromiya Battler committed a crime. (or sin)
From your crime, a person died.
Due to your crime, many humans died on this island. No one escaped, they all died.

Beatrice talking: I am the Golden Witch Beatrice. And I opened this game in order to fight with Ushiromiya Kinzo's grandson, Ushiromiya Battler.
Battler talking: Ushiromiya Battler's mother is Ushiromiya Asumu. My name is Ushiromiya Battler. Ushiromiya Battler was born from Ushiromiya Asumu.
Battler cannot say 'I was born from Ushiromiya Asumu.'
Beatrice talking: You are not Ushiromiya Asumu's son.

Spoiler for chapter 19:

Beatrice: This is my Golden Land. A world where any magic other than my own definitely cannot exist.
Beatrice: With my magic, Sakutarou could not be revived. Your stuffed animal is a special stuffed animal. The only one in the world, made by Rosa for her daughter's birthday.

Ange: Ushiromiya Battler is not Ushiromiya Asumu's son. Only Kinzo's grandson Battler is qualified to be your opponent.
Battler: Ange is my younger sister. You can't trust anything, you can't trust any words that aren't red...!!

Ange: Come back quickly, Onii-chan!! Don't leave me all alone!!! It's me, Ange...!! No one came back, not Mom, not Dad, not you, Onii-chan!! I'm lonely!! I beg you, come back quickly! That's right, I'm Ange!! The Ange of the world where no one comes back...!! My entire family didn't come back from Rokkenjima on that day...!! The witch before your eyes stole my whole family, even you, Onii-chan...! Only you can finish her, Onii-chan!! Finish her, Onii-chan...!! And take our family back!! Then, ......come back to me......!!!

The rest is from the tea parties.

Spoiler for EP1:

Regarding the closed room with Eva and Hideyoshi.
Beatrice: The two were killed by other people (or homocide)
It is not the case that after the creation of the closed room, one committed suicide after committing murder! Furthermore, the one who carried out the murders did so in the same room as the victims! No method exists for the person who carried out murder to do so from outside the room!

Regarding Kanon in the boiler room.
Beatrice: All survivors have alibis!! That also includes the dead!! In other words, no humans or dead people on the island could have killed Kanon! Kanon did not commit suicide.
Lambda: Kanon did not die in an accident.

Regarding the deaths of Kumasawa, Genji, and Nanjo.
Beatrice: Maria, who was in the same room, did not kill them! And, of course, they were killed by other people! Regarding corpses with unknown identities, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist!
Lambda: Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not murderers.

Regarding Natsuhi's death.
Beatrice: Natsuhi was killed by another person. There were absolutely no corpses of unknown identity, and all survivors had alibis! The bullet buried in Natsuhi's head was not fired by Natsuhi's gun!
Lambda: The thing that shot Natsuhi was not a trap, but a real shooting murder with a readied gun and a pulled trigger!

Spoiler for EP2:

Regarding the first twilight in the chapel.
Beatrice: From the time Maria received her key, until the next day, at the instant when Rosa opened the letter, the key did not pass through anyone's hands!! Other than Kinzo's study, no door with an auto-lock exists! By the time the six were found, they had all already died. All were killed by other people! All six were genuine victims, and were not related to each others' murders! No mutual murders existed!! No one was hiding in that chapel. Therefore, the 'staying shut in' closed room doesn't work.
Lambda: When the six who were in the chapel were killed, the culprit was in the chapel!

Regarding Kanon's double who 'killed' Kumasawa and Nanjo.
Beatrice: They would definitely not mistake another person for Kanon.
Lambda: The only one who can use Kanon's name is the person himself. A different human cannot use that name!

Regarding Natsuhi's closed room with George and Shannon.
Beatrice: All of the master keys were under Rosa's control.
Lambda: After Rosa came to control the master keys, not once did they leave her hands! Except for the time that she lent it to Battler to unlock Natsuhi's room.

Spoiler for EP3:

Regarding the 6 closed rooms chain in ep3.
Beatrice: All five master keys were found in the pockets of the 5 servants! The keys for the individual rooms were in envelopes alongside the corpses! In other words, all keys related to the linked closed rooms were shut up inside the linked closed rooms!! There was no way to return the keys from the outside using things like cracks in the doors, cracks in the windows, or air vents. All of them had signs of fatal wounds that resembled gunshot wounds! Murder from outside the room was impossible!! And I'll say even more in red! When the 5 people other than Kinzo were murdered, the murderer was definitely in the same room! I already said at the time that non of them committed suicide!!

Regarding George leaving the guesthouse to 'save' Shannon.
Beatrice: George did not go down the guesthouse staircase. All doors and windows leadng to the outside were locked from the inside. Furthermore, it is impossible to lock any of these from the outside.

Spoiler for EP4:

Beatrice: Kanon is dead. He was the first to die in Kyrie's group of 5. In other words, he is the ninth victim. All who were at the family conference acknowledged Kinzo's existence! No person would mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo for someone else. No matter what the disguise, they would not mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo!

Regarding the end of the game.
Beatrice: Ushiromiya Battler. After this point in time, I will kill you. And right now, there is no one on this island other than you. The only one alive on this island is you. Nothing outside the island can interfere in any way. You are all alone on this island. And of course, I am not you. However, I am here now, and will kill you.

Spoiler for all games:

Beatrice: Kinzo's life or death status at the start of each of the 4 games are all the same. The setup was not different for the fourth game alone. At the start of all games, Kinzo is already dead! Until now, I have stated that no more than 18 people exist on this island. I will lower this by one for Kinzo!! There are no more than 17 humans existing on this island!! This includes an 18th person. In other words, no 18th person X exists!! This applies to all games!!!

Spoiler for question:

something is bugging me
when Beatrice says
The crime I am now demanding that you remember is not something between Ushiromiya Battler and Beatrice.
Ushiromiya Battler committed a crime. (or sin)
From your crime, a person died.
Due to your crime, many humans died on this island. No one escaped, they all died.

what kind of crime is she referring to? That he isn't Asumu's son???

and hope is not too much if anyone can do a little summary the ending/tea party, saw a little on nicovideo but of course not speaking japanese I didn't understand anything

[Klashikari]

We absolutely don't know what Beato was talking about.
There isn't even any real clue if that mention is that relevant, but it increases the mystery aspect of Battler's past.

[Kets]

What powers does Gaap have?

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Kets

What powers does Gaap have?

Well, Gaap didn't have much screentime.
Aside of the common "superhuman strength", well

Spoiler for Episode 4, Gaap abilities:

She has the power to create "holes/pitfalls" that teleport/transport the target to a location she wishes.
This is actually a very pesky ability, since she can use as defense and offense.

As defense, she can prevent the target to attack her, or consequently, she can use it herself to escape (supposedly though as she didn't do so in the game).
As offense, she can force the target to appear into a complete random location (like mid air) which prevents them to counter attack, as she bite them.

However, it seems there is a limit in her powers, otherwise, she could simply teleport the target like... 100 m in the sky, for a certain death (which she didn't... or couldn't?). I assume she has not limitation for the distance as long as the entry/exit are close to the ground, but it seems she cannot create a hole very high.
Also, it seems there is a limit in the casting time for that.

She didn't show any other ability past this point

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Well, Gaap didn't have much screentime.
Aside of the common "superhuman strength", well

Spoiler for Episode 4, Gaap abilities:

She has the power to create "holes/pitfalls" that teleport/transport the target to a location she wishes.
This is actually a very pesky ability, since she can use as defense and offense.

As defense, she can prevent the target to attack her, or consequently, she can use it herself to escape (supposedly though as she didn't do so in the game).
As offense, she can force the target to appear into a complete random location (like mid air) which prevents them to counter attack, as she bite them.

However, it seems there is a limit in her powers, otherwise, she could simply teleport the target like... 100 m in the sky, for a certain death (which she didn't... or couldn't?). I assume she has not limitation for the distance as long as the entry/exit are close to the ground, but it seems she cannot create a hole very high.
Also, it seems there is a limit in the casting time for that.

She didn't show any other ability past this point

So basically

Spoiler:

gaps?

[Sterling01]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

So basically

Spoiler:

gaps?

She's a Yukari rip-off

[Klashikari]

Yeah, though I think it is purely a coincidence, not intended for her name (I doubt Ryukishi would go as far as looking for an english name that would match her name like this).

Her power is rather taking its source from Touhou, Yukari IIRC

EDIT: ah, sterling was faster

[ClockWorkAngel]

Wait what bugs me is Beato's last message

Spoiler for This One:

Kinzo's life or death status at the start of each of the 4 games are all the same. The setup was not different for the fourth game alone. At the start of all games, Kinzo is already dead! Until now, I have stated that no more than 18 people exist on this island. I will lower this by one for Kinzo!! There are no more than 17 humans existing on this island!! This includes an 18th person. In other words, no 18th person X exists!! This applies to all games!!!

That gives us alot of leeway actually. If Kinzo is always dead then we've gotten a large amount of clues, like in Ep2, seeing as he couldn't have seen Kinzo etc etc. Many of our theories gotten shot down, but we've gotten some important clues.

[k//eternal]

I'm betting that there's a bit of extra room in

Spoiler:

the existence of another Battler, and I think it's pretty likely that the other Battler is on the island. Since it was stated that Ushiromiya Battler isn't Asumu's son, the other Battler is probably a girl, and could be the older Ange.

Ange's destruction might have been a result of violating the use of red text by using it to tell a lie. There's little other reason she would have been destroyed just by confirming her identity.

[Sterling01]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

I'm betting that there's a bit of extra room in

Spoiler:

the existence of another Battler, and I think it's pretty likely that the other Battler is on the island. Since it was stated that Ushiromiya Battler isn't Asumu's son, the other Battler is probably a girl, and could be the older Ange.

Ange's destruction might have been a result of violating the use of red text by using it to tell a lie. There's little other reason she would have been destroyed just by confirming her identity.

That doesn't make sense as Ange is confirmed to be the daughter of Rudolf and Kyrie

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

I'm betting that there's a bit of extra room in

Spoiler:

the existence of another Battler, and I think it's pretty likely that the other Battler is on the island. Since it was stated that Ushiromiya Battler isn't Asumu's son, the other Battler is probably a girl, and could be the older Ange.

Ange's destruction might have been a result of violating the use of red text by using it to tell a lie. There's little other reason she would have been destroyed just by confirming her identity.

no, that is not possible

Spoiler for Episode 3 end:

The other Battler MUST be a guy. Beato first stated that "Ushirmoya Battler is Asumu's son", but Battler couldn't say "I'm Asumu's son".
The "original" Battler IS Asumu's son, but there is no explanation if he is alive or whatnot.

And no, it is not possible to tell lies with red. As shown with Battler, if one is trying to use red with lies, either they have hard time to say the sentence (and fails to do so) or the sentence comes out in white.
The official reason for Ange's self destruction is confirmed to be the revelation of her identity, but nothing past this point.

[yangxu]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

I'm betting that there's a bit of extra room in

Spoiler:

the existence of another Battler, and I think it's pretty likely that the other Battler is on the island. Since it was stated that Ushiromiya Battler isn't Asumu's son, the other Battler is probably a girl, and could be the older Ange.

Ange's destruction might have been a result of violating the use of red text by using it to tell a lie. There's little other reason she would have been destroyed just by confirming her identity.

Spoiler:

It's highly possible that another Battler by the same name (and perhaps the true son of Asumu) is on the island and is responsible for everyone's death. But this would contradict what Beatrice said at the end of the Tea Party in red.

[Von Himmel]

Spoiler:

Kinzo's life or death status at the start of each of the 4 games are all the same. The setup was not different for the fourth game alone. At the start of all games, Kinzo is already dead! Until now, I have stated that no more than 18 people exist on this island. I will lower this by one for Kinzo!! There are no more than 17 humans existing on this island!! This includes an 18th person. In other words, no 18th person X exists!! This applies to all games!!!

I still don't get it. . So who's the Kinzo that everyone acknowledge ?

All who were at the family conference acknowledged Kinzo's existence! No person would mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo for someone else. No matter what the disguise, they would not mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo!

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

no, that is not possible

Spoiler for Episode 3 end:

The other Battler MUST be a guy. Beato first stated that "Ushirmoya Battler is Asumu's son", but Battler couldn't say "I'm Asumu's son".
The "original" Battler IS Asumu's son, but there is no explanation if he is alive or whatnot.

And no, it is not possible to tell lies with red. As shown with Battler, if one is trying to use red with lies, either they have hard time to say the sentence (and fails to do so) or the sentence comes out in white.
The official reason for Ange's self destruction is confirmed to be the revelation of her identity, but nothing past this point.

Oh, so it was just a translation thing above. Fair enough, although I still think

Spoiler:

Battler 2 is the most likely culprit. There's no contradiction as long as you assume that he's one of the 17 people present--either because he's someone we know, or because a second person is also dead.

I'm still looking at Kanon, due in part to the whole "praise my name" bit. When I'm reading this:

Beatrice: All survivors have alibis!! That also includes the dead!! In other words, no humans or dead people on the island could have killed Kanon! Kanon did not commit suicide.
Lambda: Kanon did not die in an accident.

If no human could have killed Kanon and he didn't die by accident, then either he was killed by an animal, a disease, or he isn't dead at all (his death may have been previously confirmed but I don't recall).

I will laugh kind of hard if everyone is killed by animals, especially if they are wolves.

[Von Himmel]

Wait, if Kanon did survive and did not die in the first episode, that means that he's the only one that survive in the first episode right ?

But that injury on his chest cannot be fake, so. .

[chronotrig]

Wait a second, k//eternal and the translation posted above are right.

Spoiler for all red text:

No one never says that Ushiromiya Battler is Asumu's son in red. meta Battler does say that Asumu is Battler's mother.

The only time either of them use the word 'son' is when Beato says You are not Ushiromiya Asumu's son., speaking to meta Battler.

So if we assume that meta Battler is a girl who was not born from Asumu, he could be Asumu's son...i guess.
Hey, it's the meta world, anything could happen......

And if there is another Ushiromiya Battler, that can be a girl.

[Rias]

Originally Posted by Flyvedelta

Spoiler:

Kinzo's life or death status at the start of each of the 4 games are all the same. The setup was not different for the fourth game alone. At the start of all games, Kinzo is already dead! Until now, I have stated that no more than 18 people exist on this island. I will lower this by one for Kinzo!! There are no more than 17 humans existing on this island!! This includes an 18th person. In other words, no 18th person X exists!! This applies to all games!!!

I still don't get it. . So who's the Kinzo that everyone acknowledge ?

Spoiler for speculation:

Perhaps it's a person that has somethings that makes everyone acknowledge him as "Ginzo". First thing that comes to mind is Ginzo's ring. If Ginzo is dead before each game, then obviously the scene where he throws away his ring happens much earlier (at least before oct 4), so it's possible for anyone to have picked it up.

Originally Posted by Flyvedelta

Wait, if Kanon did survive and did not die in the first episode, that means that he's the only one that survive in the first episode right ?

But that injury on his chest cannot be fake, so. .

Ep1 doesn't have any red text on its own, and even added with ep4's, it doesn't confirm that he was dead in ep1. So it is possible for Kanon to have faked his wound and death. Of course, that would highly suggests that Nanjou is helping out to "confirm" that Kanon is "hurt" and "dead"