2010-04-12, 22:04 | Link #2021 | |||
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Well, these should probably be in the FAQ, really, but meh.
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2010-06-02, 02:56 | Link #2022 |
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Just finished Heaven's Feel and wanted to comment on my opinion.
I understand the emotion behind the arc, I really do, but I still can't like it. Shirou turned his back not on his ideals, but himself. He negated something he built his whole life around, nearly died every night for, and scarred into his memory as he watched people die around him. The most natural ending is the one where he indeed does let Rin kill Sakura and it seems it's a bit of a cheat that they force you to follow the other route. I also have a problem with how they pretty much magically upgrade Shirou unlike UBW where the man has to actually do some real training instead of the BS projection in this arc where he just "gets" the knowledge from Archer, although they did tone down what Shirou could do. The servants themselves also seemed to take a huge hit in this arc compared to the other ones. Now onto the side characters, I like Sakura the least of all the heroines in the game because she isn't one. As some other people have pointed out, she just drags everybody into the mess. That of course is natural for her, in regards to her upbringing, but again I think she doesn't really qualify as a heroine. I had a little bit of an issue with Saber in that she really doesn't show any emotion even in the end while Berserker, the one who was insane in the beginning, recognized Ilya and screwed himself up. I'm again fine with it as it makes sense but personally don't like it. Rin also wimped out but they built that up so it was fine however pretty much nobody sticked to their convictions in this arc. Yes being an adult means making sacrifices or compromises however giving exceptions because it benefits you is somewhat hypocritical in my viewpoint. |
2010-06-02, 08:05 | Link #2023 |
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Shirou never actually wanted to save everyone at the cost of a few. when he had to choose between the one he loved and everyone else he couldnt make the choice where he had to sacrifice the one he loved. he realized that the thing he wanted was to protect the ones close to him. Thats what makes Shirous ideals different from Kiritsugus ideals.
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2010-06-02, 08:22 | Link #2024 | |
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2010-06-02, 08:27 | Link #2025 |
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Age: 32
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Fate Shirou- Save everybody!
UBW Shirou- Save everybody. Or at least as much people as possible. And then next time I'll save everybody. Archer/Kiritsugu- Save as many people as possible HF Shirou- Save those close to me > Save everybody else > other stuff
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2010-06-02, 11:13 | Link #2027 |
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Yes it's human and so from that standpoint, HF is probably the most realistic arc. The thing though with Shirou is that he's broken and pretty much insane from the get go. HF tries to make him out to be a regular person when it's clear he never was. The fire didn't change him, it pretty much is him. His driving force all the way to before FS/N is guilt and that guilt is part of what made him so obstinate and self sacrificing. That's one thing Fate and UBW got right in that they showed how screwed up Shirou is.
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2010-06-02, 19:04 | Link #2028 |
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 39
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No, you are completely wrong.
Yes, Shirou is not 'normal', but what the fire gave him was an inability to think of himself. HF Shirou is no different, fundamentally than any of the other Shirous. He was simply forced into a situation where his real wish and his 'ideal' came into conflict. If you watch what Shirou does in the first two routes and at the beginning of HF, and indeed if you listen to Rin talking about Archer, it's clear that Shirou's true wish is quite simple. He simply doesn't like seeing people upset or hurt. That is why Archer is so damn broken, even though in reality he has probably save countless lives in his role as a Counter Guardian. He simply can't cope with it because he doesn't see the happiness that he brings, he only sees the sadness. Of course, in HF, he comes to this realisation, and decides to protect Sakura. Yes, he throws off the ideal, but his ideal isn't really what defines him, it is his wish to protect people, and he does that in HF as much, if not more so, than he does in the other routes. At no point in the game does Shirou ever implement the "kill one to save many" idea. He lets Shinji go in Fate and in UBW, even though he knows how Shinji is, and he saves Ilya's life in Fate even though she had been trying to kill him seconds earlier. Similarly, in HF he saves the woman Rider bites even though it means letting Zouken (who he can tell is a danger) go (he couldn't have killed him anyway, of course, but he doesn't know that at the time). Fate Shirou and UBW Shirou can hold onto their ideal because they don't have anything to truly test it. Shirou lets go of Saber, yes, but he didn't really have a choice. He proves quite conclusively prior to that that he is willing to sacrifice himself to protect her, and he proves the same with Rin in UBW. Sakura in HF is no different, it's just that he has to go further to protect her. Also, note that, at the time, Sakura has done nothing wrong, to his knowledge. When Rin says to him that Sakura will eventually go mad and kill people, he accepts that, if she does, he'll have to kill her first. At that point in the game, all Shirou has done is to decide to give Sakura a chance. That is entirely consistent with how he acts in the other two routes (towards genuine villains like Shinji, even) and fits perfectly with his original ideal, which is to save everyone. UBW Shirou eventually accepted that this was an impossibility, and may well have killed Sakura, but HF Shirou had not. He is still stuck on the idea that he can protect Sakura and the innocent people she might kill, and he follows through with it. Later on, as he falls more and more deeply in love with her, he decides that he doesn't care if she's the shadow, he wants to be with her anyway. In my view, the point where he abandons his ideals is not the first decision not to kill Sakura but the second one. At that point, he knows that she's a genuine danger and that she has killed people (albeit accidentally) and he simply cannot bring himself to kill her, because she means too much to him. But, by that point he's gone through a hell of a lot of character development and has spent the last four days believing he has cast off his ideals, which softens him up for the situation where he genuinely has to do so. At the time of MoS, he is still thinking "I will save everyone", but over the next four days his thought processes gradually change from "well, I love Sakura, and I want to be with her, but I also have to protect everyone else if she goes crazy" to "I will protect Sakura no matter what, and then I will save as many others as I can afterwards". |
2010-06-03, 09:01 | Link #2029 |
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HF Shirou obviously starts out similar but at the end is definitely different than Fate or UBW Shirou but that pretty much goes without saying.
I was never arguing about his goal of being a superhero as they made it clear that he wants to save everyone and a superhero can only save people who the superhero has chosen to save. He however doesn’t even follow this in HF as he chooses Sakura over the people in the town in the end (and even Saber which Nasu forces down your throat) as he would rather take an almost guaranteed risk of causing a similar disaster to happen so he could have a slight chance to save Sakura. The only reason the disaster didn’t happen was because Ilya stepped in and pretty much saved everybody’s skins, something Shirou clearly didn’t expect. He never really was forced into a corner to specifically kill anyone in those choices. Shinji in Fate and UBW was just a scumbag and as long as Rider was out then Shirou most likely thought Shinji would give up. Shinji was also Shirou’s friend (prior anyway) so it wasn’t just a simple matter of killing him. In UBW he had no idea that Shinji would get his hands on Gilgamesh. Ilya throughout all three routes he views her as just a kid and somebody who really shouldn’t have been involved in the whole affair. The difference is in that in HF he’s not just placing himself in danger but the entire town and he knows it. The first two routes there isn’t any conflict because the people he’s protecting are needed to save the world while in the third route the person he’s protecting has a very good chance of destroying the world. So the pure act of him protecting someone in HF is ultimately selfish but still very human. I never said that he should have gone the MoS route because as you said, he didn’t know all the details but rather it’s the second choice that is somewhat defining. The MoS route was possibilities which I could see UBW Shirou taking but again that’s fine. He in that choice clearly rejected everything he had built his life around up to that point and as Sakura said, she pretty much broke him. I very much like how one of the Tiger Dojo phrases the arcs in that Fate and UBW are the setting up of a question(that of does Shirou want to be a superhero and how far is he willing to go) and HF is one of the possible answers. |
2010-06-04, 08:24 | Link #2030 |
The Mage of Four Hearts
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Age: 33
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Regarding Zouken in UBW, I know that even though Gilgamesh destroyed all his worms, he does survive worse in HF.
However, he was actually awake those times. When Kirei exorcised him, Sakura destroyed his heart worms, he had consciously try to survive, In UBW, when Gil smashed the worms he was asleep, right? meaning he couldn't focus on saving himself. |
2010-06-08, 09:42 | Link #2031 | |
Mad Scientist #0000
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Also I like HF exactly because Shirou lets his ideals go. Or more like he reforms it. He learns to have priorities and to care about himself. It may sound strange after what he puts his body through to save Sakura but he do learn to treasure himself. Sakura gives him a reason to see some worth in himself, something he didn't really do in the other routes. In that essence HF "cures" Shirou and makes him a much more healthy man. He's still incredible but knows how to rely on others and knows where to exactly put his strength. Shirou grows up, something which Archer and Kiritsugu never really did. Because of their own childish view they turned into inhuman people. Although Kiritsugu turned into human at least thanks to Irisviel, Illya, the Grail War and last but not least to Shirou. Shirou saved him and cured his soul. I view HF a great closure especially because in the end the same happened to Shirou. |
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2010-06-08, 16:11 | Link #2032 | ||||||||||
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But, in truth, post-Fate and post-UBW Zouken will not give up on his goals and start torturing Sakura for the evulz, he will go looking for a different way to attain immortality. Most likely, he will continue to use her as an heir, and eventually attempt to get her to breed in order to produce a new heir for him to train. |
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2010-06-08, 18:49 | Link #2033 | ||||
The Mage of Four Hearts
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The poit isn't how much time Shirou spends with anyone. It's that he made the decision that no matter how long he spent believing in something or what he gave up for it, Sakura is more important to him than any of that. It isn't to be admired or respected because he threw that away, it's for love. His love for Sakura is more important than anything else. he would do anything, anything at all if it's for Sakura's benefit. |
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2010-06-09, 06:32 | Link #2035 | |
Mad Scientist #0000
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2010-06-09, 07:14 | Link #2036 | |||||||
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Anyway, Zouken isn't stupid. He wouldn't leave himself defenseless in that way. Quote:
Post-HF, Shirou and Sakura will both learn to value themselves, because they want each other to be happy and the only way that can happen is if they are happy themselves. Quote:
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Saber in HF means far less to Shirou than Saber in Fate (or even in UBW) does, and the idea that killing her is somehow a massive moment in his character development is laughable. The only reason he would not have killed her at that point was if he felt for her the way that he felt for Sakura, and since it is the Sakura route, there's no reason for him to do so. Quote:
Secondly, like I said, once he gives up on immortality (or accepts that he has no way of attaining it), there's no reason for him to live any more, which means that he'll just die, to relieve himself of the pain. As long as he hasn't given up on it, he's not going to start torturing Sakura for the sake of it, because that would jeopardise his plans. Last edited by Cherry_Lover; 2010-06-09 at 08:47. |
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2010-06-09, 10:52 | Link #2037 | ||
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Join Date: Dec 2006
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@Cherry Lover
Trust me, they get alot of flak for it too and Batman has at times considered putting down the Joker permanently. There are also superheroes such as the Punisher that aren't afraid of killing, heck there was a debate about that in the recent Marvel arc about whether they should kill Norman Osborn. UBW Shirou fits the ideal hero moreso than HF because he doesn't try to save the perperatrator while HF did. No superhero kills in cold blood but they certainly wouldn't try to save Sakura at the expense of the world. A good line from Batman Begins is "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you". I never said he should put Saber above Sakura put he nonetheless killed someone who guarded and saved his life, something that as you can see in his dialogue was a very rough call for him. In regards to the people in the town that is where a hero and a normal person differ. A hero would care about the regular ci The chances of Sakura going insane and pretty much wiping everyone out was pretty bloody high. She could have pretty easily wiped them all out if she had actually gone to the house before going to the cave and the chances of Shirou's plan going off without a hitch was pretty slight. Ilya closed the grail if she hadn't then Avenger would have popped up unless Shirou had replicated Excalibur which certainly wasn't a given considering his state. So all in all it wasn't like the chances weren't slightly against the protoganists but pretty overwhelmingly against them. Shirou in all routes pretty much wrote Shinji off after Shinji lost his Servant. There certainly was no immediate or even apparent threat from Shinji after Rider was gone. I would certainly disagree with that as Sakura was alot more powerful, insane, and insane than Shinji or Ilya. Shinji was really only a threat because of his servants and with Ilya it certainly wasn't a kill her or die scenario that was more prevalent in the HF route with Sakura. If Shirou hadn't gotten that magical powerup near the end of HF then he would have easily been wiped out atleast by Berserk in the secound round in the forest. Near the end he states that he's on Sakura side no matter what, even knowing that she's insane so that resolution is gone. Quote:
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Honestly I think he came up with an answer at the end of the UBW route as well so I would say that they provide two answers of a sort. He understands the consequences and the possibilities of his ideal but will continue anyway which is what I would consider an adult decision as well. I personally prefer the UBW's answer but I certainly see where Nasu was going with HF. |
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2010-06-09, 11:49 | Link #2038 | |||||||||||||||||
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Plus, at the time, he had no idea how deep the problems went. As far as he was aware, it was simply a case of making sure that he killed Sakura when she went mad. Quote:
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2010-06-09, 13:55 | Link #2039 |
Mad Scientist #0000
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We're drifting to a dangerous area. The term of superhero is quite vague. But all in all they become superheroes because they have the power to do so. It mirrors in the difference between Batman and Superman. Superman is welll...Superman and possess absurdly large power compared to a normal human. Although it's interesting to note that even he didn't succeed every time and never achieved the dreamed world-peace he wanted. Batman on the other hand had the rude truth shoved down on his throat and became a more bitter and dark person. Also he vaguely knew his limits.
Shirou wanted to become someone like Superman but he refused to admit he lacks the power to do so. He does it while never realizes (Before FSN) that how inhumane is to think like that. For example we have quite a few evil Supermans in comics. Or alternate Supermans who ruled the world with iron fist. To a lesser degree even the almighty Man of Iron has the same dilemma as Shirou. I don't like his idealism. Eventually it will kill him and leave the people who loved him in grief. His thick skull never realizes this in any route except HF. Fate Shirou will eventually face the bitterness of the world and either becomes disillusioned or sacrafices himself at relatively young. UBW shirou is aware of it and has Rin to protect him but like Fate Shirou, UBW Shirou too will end up as a tool of others. HF Shirou on the other hand learns to live like a human and have his own control over his fate. Although he probably will choose a more peaceful life. Still, if HF Shirou really decides to do something for the world then he has a best chance to succeed. Why? Because he found himself. Fate and UBW Shirou are more like a sword which needs a hand to be directed. HF Shirou on the other hand is a warrior who swings his sword in the way he wants. |
2010-06-09, 17:41 | Link #2040 | |||||||||
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As stated otherwise, superhero ideals definitely depend on the person. Christ, Batman carried a gun for awhile. Superman killed Doomsday. Spiderman has tried to kill Norman Osborn.
Anti-hero is such a broad term that on Wikipedia, they had Batman listed under there. Again I’m not talking about the first choice to kill Sakura but definitely the second choice. It’s nobody’s fault that the Joker is like the way he is either and at the second choice, Shirou knows Sakura is responsible for multiple deaths and has a good chance of killing more. Saving and letting go is somewhat different. Sakura after she leaves the house at that point is not a good guy as she is pretty much insane and essentially tried to kill Shirou(Berserker in forest) not to mention the amount of bad ends you can get. Saving someone from falling to their deaths and putting them in jail is somewhat different than risking not only your life but the world as well in saving that individual. I would say most superheroes if trying to decide between disarming a bomb or saving one life, the superhero would choose the bomb (before anybody brings up the Dark Knight, Batman thought Gordon could get to Dent in time) but afterwards try and save the life. Quote:
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So? If Shinji hadn’t agreed then it would have been interesting to see what Shirou would have done but there was still no reason to just up and kill Shinji(which is somewhat extreme). Again your opinion of MoS Shirou is a little extreme. MoS Shirou felt cornered (in regards to Sakura) and did the best option he saw fit. Quote:
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In most cases as the game points out, it’s not hard but just impossible. You can’t save the Joker, Osborn, Luthor, Red Skull, or the dozens of other villains. It’s simply impossible. Trying to save an individual is fine but having so much emotion that you can’t STOP trying to save that person is the problem. The first time when he chose not to let Rin kill Sakura was him doing the hardest route but the second choice was pretty much asinine. He got insanely lucky that Sakura’s insanity was only temporary and she reverted back to her normal (kinda anyway) after the Grail incident. He never had to confront the possibility of a permanently insane Sakura. Archer realized his ideal when he had already became a Servant and thus entrapped permanently so again he realized it too late. Archer as you stated didn’t like having to kill people to save people, something that Shirou in HF somewhat just stumbles upon. That’s why you need UBW to have that personal development for Shirou. To have Shirou question his beliefs and ideals in the first place before leaping to Sakura’s rescue. You really hate Kiritsugu don’t you? |
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fate/stay night, visual novel |
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