Madoka Magica - Character Discussion - Kyubei

[Sekirei07]

QB has already stated it is beyond his power to save someone once turned Witch.

One reason he didn't tell them about the Soul Gem part is to get them to train and become stronger. Stronger MG to make stronger Witches eventually.

But than again lies the biggest character problem with QB.

We, as the audience, can never really know if he is lying or telling the truth until actual things happen. Only Homura knows the real truth.

[BaKaBaKaOtaKu]

seeing some justifications behind QB's actions here just rose my despicable suspicion that homura might be willing to sacrifice humanity for madoka. Meaning her goal is to stop madoka from becoming an MG w/o a care whether the world burns in hell. I think this is the reason why shinbo wants the viewers to rewatch the series after it's done; to make a sense behind homura's actions all in all.

tl;dr, homura had a twisted and madoka-centered goal

[Key Board]

I think Incubator is a soulless tool of a cruel system. Even his name implies that.
He probably doesn't even has his own ego

I'm guessing he's like Nagi from Mai Hime.
I won't be surprised if he takes "defeat" the same way as Nagi did.
He'll sulk about it, but not really care enough.

The question is, will we see the top ringleader of the system in this season?
Probably not.

If the madoka spinoff manga are any indication, witches and magical girls still are a problem.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Sekirei07

QB has already stated it is beyond his power to save someone once turned Witch.

Did QB really say that? (not trying to provoke an argument, I genuinely don't remember him saying that, but please do point it out if I missed that)

Also, I don't think even Homura knows everything, she probably only knows enough to know she feels she has a solid chance of saving Madoka.

[Sageblink]

Originally Posted by BaKaBaKaOtaKu

seeing some justifications behind QB's actions here just rose my despicable suspicion that homura might be willing to sacrifice humanity for madoka. Meaning her goal is to stop madoka from becoming an MG w/o a care whether the world burns in hell. I think this is the reason why shinbo wants the viewers to rewatch the series after it's done; to make a sense behind homura's actions all in all.

tl;dr, homura had a twisted and madoka-centered goal

Well, that makes me think of Sailormoon S (third season), when Saturn is sacrifying herself to stop the big bad, thus saving the world.
The all season, Uranus and Neptune are willing to sacrifice some people for the sake of the entire world. Yet Sailormoon refuses to let one girl endure that on her own and decides to put everything she has to find an alternative.

Maybe Homura is doing the same. She cannot let someone take responsability for something she hasn't started.
So QB would take on the role of the Outer senshis (Uranus & Neptune), willing to sacrifice fews girls to achieve a goal : destroy, create, incubate, whatever..

[Sekirei07]

Originally Posted by taofd

Did QB really say that? (not trying to provoke an argument, I genuinely don't remember him saying that, but please do point it out if I missed that)

Also, I don't think even Homura knows everything, she probably only knows enough to know she feels she has a solid chance of saving Madoka.

He did say so:

Madoka: "If I hate you, will you turn Sayaka back?"
QB: "No. That's beyond my power"

I guess tech its not directly stated, but it implies that he can't. If he can't turn a girl back from MG into a human. Than he sure as hell can't do it for a Witch, hell the whole point of making MG would be pointless if he could simply do that.

It also applies that a wish can't return a MG back into human as well. Since QB stated that it would be Madoka who would have to make the "miracle" happen that can "change the laws of the universe"

It kinda reminds me the old Disney movie Aladin and Genie's three rules to wishes:
1. I can't kill anyone
2. I can't make people fall in love
3. I can't bring the dead back to life

[erneiz_hyde]

YOU ARE BACK~! XD
I was a little worried there when I saw the "banned" status. I was away quite a while, did you went overboard in your statements like I warned you? Anyway, please be more careful in the future.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

[1]This is mostly speculation. Mami seemed to do just fine, and so did Kyoko. Neither one seemed in danger, despite how long they may have been doing it. Perhaps Homura, too. In fact, Kyoko had done so well that she was considerably stronger than Sayaka. And Sayaka had to deliberately not cleanse her jewel after repeated fights in order to have it get tainted.

[2]Same. What I found interesting, was that Kyube talked of hope. If she really is all powerful and can change things, why would he want that? It feels to me more like his interest is just in seeing what she can do, even if that ultimately ends up changing the system.

Could have been lying, but considering he hasn't actually lied yet, then it's interesting to speculate on, heh.

1. This is my specualtion. Since ep.8 I've been wondering that if by being MG you ceased aging, that means you're immortal unless killed. In most literature (umineko for example), people with immortality has a greater tendency to succumb to evil or at least cruelty. I wonder if this is the case in Madoka, that even if you keep cleansing your soul gem, your psyche may not hold for long and loses their MG power source (wish/hope) and eventually fall to despair/curses (witch's power source) anyway.

2. This line at the episode also caught me. It makes me think that inQBtor may not fully be evil. Of course it can be interpreted that if Madoka become MG, he will have an unbelievably delicious meal later on. But it might also hints that deep down, inQBtor too wants an end to this system, or perhaps at least, a form of rebellious act from a 'tool' towards his master (though in this case, if he was aiming for a coup d'etat so he can continue the system as the ruler, I think it doesn't make him less evil lol).

[Hooves]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

1. This is my specualtion. Since ep.8 I've been wondering that if by being MG you ceased aging, that means you're immortal unless killed. In most literature (umineko for example), people with immortality has a greater tendency to succumb to evil or at least cruelty. I wonder if this is the case in Madoka, that even if you keep cleansing your soul gem, your psyche may not hold for long and loses their MG power source (wish/hope) and eventually fall to despair/curses (witch's power source) anyway.

Homura has been a magical girl for a long time apparently, or it could just be her time-altering powers, but she din't seem to age any further. But of course that could once again be her time powers allowing her to skip forward or backward in time to see events happen over and over in which she tells Madoka "I've seen alot of magical girls die". Sayaka is a good example of your second statement. If you start to lose your sanity of the world, you'll eventually no longer care to cleanse your soul gem in which the corruption of the curses you worded will make you actually want to bring despair to those people of the world.

[Sekirei07]

Kyoko has been seen to age since she became a MG, she was much younger looking when she fought in her story at least.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Sekirei07

He did say so:

Madoka: "If I hate you, will you turn Sayaka back?"
QB: "No. That's beyond my power"

I guess tech its not directly stated, but it implies that he can't. If he can't turn a girl back from MG into a human. Than he sure as hell can't do it for a Witch, hell the whole point of making MG would be pointless if he could simply do that.

I guess to clarify, my question is: "Is it within Madoka's power to turn a MG back after she has become a witch?"

[Sageblink]

Originally Posted by taofd

I guess to clarify, my question is: "Is it within Madoka's power to turn a MG back after she has become a witch?"

Q-B stated that, yes, she could.
We don't know if he's lying to make a contract with her.
We don't know if she even could.
He doesn't know either, I suppose. He's just guessing based on her potential.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Sageblink

Q-B stated that, yes, she could.
We don't know if he's lying to make a contract with her.
We don't know if she even could.
He doesn't know either, I suppose. He's just guessing based on her potential.

Well at the time, Sayaka had not yet become a witch, and Madoka was more asking about whether or not she could return Sayaka's body back to normal.

[Sageblink]

Originally Posted by taofd

Well at the time, Sayaka had not yet become a witch, and Madoka was more asking about whether or not she could return Sayaka's body back to normal.

You're right. My mistake.

[Kaijo]

One thing to keep in mind is that it appears Kyube doesn't have the ability to power wishes. So it wasn't within his power to heal Kamijou's hand, nor to compel people to listen to Kyoko's father, either. Instead, he took some of the girls' power to make it happen.

This might finally indicate some measure of limits on the wish system, as the more power a girl has, the bigger the wish that can be granted. However, this still means that Madoka could have wished Mami back, or the system to end, long ago. If she had done so, Sayaka wouldn't have become a witch, and wouldn't have had the issues she currently does.

[Sageblink]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Madoka could have wished Mami back, or the system to end, long ago. If she had done so, Sayaka wouldn't have become a witch, and wouldn't have had the issues she currently does.

I think you're assuming Madoka could have done that without keeping in mind she's a young girl. She saw a friend died, she's not aware of any system, and she don't even know that Sayaka became a witch (or that it could be a possibility).

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Sageblink

I think you're assuming Madoka could have done that without keeping in mind she's a young girl. She saw a friend died, she's not aware of any system, and she don't even know that Sayaka became a witch (or that it could be a possibility).

A wish could have done it. And she was already aware of the system of magical girls fighting witches. Wishing Mami back would have made her realize just how much power she had, and instilled a desire to make sure no magical girl ever died again.

The point is, that sometimes life calls upon us to do things. And if we withdraw from that, greater consequences can ensue. Fear warns us of danger, but if we let it paralyze us to inaction, then we destroy ourselves.

[Fimbulvetr]

So you're ready to believe that if Madoka contracts then she can make everything right again, heal the world and ascend to godhood?
Just because contracting sounds like a good idea when Kyuube says it doesn't mean that it actually is. I think we got enough clues by now to doubt everything this plushie suggests, especially if it sounds too good to be true.

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

A wish could have done it. And she was already aware of the system of magical girls fighting witches. Wishing Mami back would have made her realize just how much power she had, and instilled a desire to make sure no magical girl ever died again.

You're still hounding this even after my post? Let me quote it for you again.

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

Remember the adage "show, not tell"? They showed it in ep4. Madoka leaving her notebook with the Magical Girl sketch in Mami's apartment. That showed she wasn't willing to pay the price to wish Mami back to life. You pride yourself on seeing all the little things others miss and you missed this?

In ep4, she also said, "I'm sorry, I'm so weak." while in Mami's apartment. Tells you she's in no condition to make the wish then.
The next two times she's prompted to make a wish, Sayaka's life is at stake. So, will it be Mami who died days ago, or Sayaka who's in danger now? Not to mention Homura interrupted her before she could make a contract.

PS. I laid out one possible scenario for sacrificing a girl to end the whole thing. Neither I nor other people rate it a high chance of success. Can you come up with any specific way to use a wish with Kyubei to end the system with a better chance of success? If not, you might as well shut up about it being possible.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

In ep4, she also said, "I'm sorry, I'm so weak." while in Mami's apartment. Tells you she's in no condition to make the wish then.
The next two times she's prompted to make a wish, Sayaka's life is at stake. So, will it be Mami who died days ago, or Sayaka who's in danger now? Not to mention Homura interrupted her before she could make a contract.

She was able to voice the thought about whether it was possible to return Sayaka to normal. Think about that; they actually addressed whether it was possible to return something to normal a wish, something I've been mentioning since episode 4, where I was initially told "Give it time, they are grieving, I'm sure they'll get around to talking about it." If she can think about possibly fixing one friend with a wish and vocalize that, why wasn't it done before?

All we know is that Madoka had given up being a magical girl; hence her leaving her notebook. Anything more than that, whether she was thinking of a Mami revival or not, is speculation.

For the record, I expect Madoka to wish for Sayaka's normality, and then use her new power to fix the system. Something that could have been done only with Mami in episode 4.

I wish I had thought to put a genie into my Future Tense fanfic. I could have fixed everything in chapter 3! Rather than, you know, have our heroes work for it.

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

All we know is that Madoka had given up being a magical girl; hence her leaving her notebook. Anything more than that, whether she was thinking of a Mami revival or not, is speculation.

Just like you accused me before, you're unwilling to follow implications to their conclusions and accept them as concrete. It doesn't matter if she tells us she thought of reviving Mami with a wish or not. She showed us that she would not make any wish. Even one that could bring back the friend she just lost. That overrides whether she thought of it or not.
You brilliantly teased out subtle nuances to defend Kyubei's innocence before. But now you insist on bluntness?

For the record, I expect Madoka to wish for Sayaka's normality, and then use her new power to fix the system.

For someone who kept insisting that people who accused Kyubei of being evil to not wildly speculate, you're wildly speculating here. What makes you think, if all she wished for was Sayaka's normality, she'd have the power to fix the system? Powers gained are related to the wish, remember? If you want her to have that much power, you need her to make a different wish, and that would mean sacrificing Sayaka's salvation. So, which will it be, Mr. Coldly Logical?