[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Xenon_gun]

Then, how about this: Erika is another personality of Yasu's, present in these two games by miracle.

In EP6 Erika doesn't have Detective Authority, so she could essentially 'notice' her other two personalities in each room, and Battler maybe could say the reds he had said, due to the existence of conceptual entities. This would also allow for 'Kanon' to rescue Battler, and then disappear when Erika opens the closet.

In EP5 it doesn't matter much, because Erika is out to solve the case/frame Natsuhi, so not taking note of an unnecessary clue (the other personalities) might not be an outright violation of a certain rule. Maybe.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Xenon_gun

Then, how about this: Erika is another personality of Yasu's, present in these two games by miracle.

In EP6 Erika doesn't have Detective Authority, so she could essentially 'notice' her other two personalities in each room, and Battler maybe could say the reds he had said, due to the existence of conceptual entities. This would also allow for 'Kanon' to rescue Battler, and then disappear when Erika opens the closet.

In EP5 it doesn't matter much, because Erika is out to solve the case/frame Natsuhi, so not taking note of an unnecessary clue (the other personalities) might not be an outright violation of a certain rule. Maybe.

I've thought about this, but...

"[Confirming definition. Can I accept 'three people' to mean to the number of bodies? You're saying that three bodies went in or out of the room, right?] Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. It has already been said in red that all people can only use their own names. Therefore, the names Erika, Battler, and Kanon can only be used by those people."

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Is Erika present during the segregation? Its incredibly stupid for her to lead people into the rooms, seal them and not even notice Kanon was part of one the groups that went in the rooms. Then again, Erika seems to oscillate between genius and high functioning retard very rapidly.

Not saying that its not how it happened, just saying the whole situation is incredibly dumb.

No, Hideyoshi divided everyone up while Erika was still downstairs, so she never checked who was inside the other room.

[Cao Ni Ma]

So Hideyoshi divides them doesn't notice that Kanon/Shannon issue? So yeah it looks like they were in it or something.

[Kealym]

Firstly, EP6 is a pretty hardcore exercise in tempting how hard the Meta rules can be exploited. Even assuming Genius Battler (which I do), Ryukishi still bothers to take us through the thought process of GM basically being able to change the entire plan of their narrative, on the fly, as necessary, in addition to retroactive action (wtf), and the Meta-levels growing so tangled it's really just best left alone.

Secondly, the "magic narrative" for Kanon's disappearance pretty much implies that EVERYONE on the island grouped together to troll Erika. As stated, Erika acknowledges her blind spot regarding Kanon, but it's just unreasonable beyond all get out that the others were't involved in duping her. This instance is probably the easiest mass lie to excise, since we're literally told there was a large scale fakery going on.

[Renall]

The fake deaths in ep6 were so blatantly unconvincing that there isn't any way everyone couldn't be in on it. Erika never believed they were really dead anyway, she just didn't have the authority needed to prove it.

So it seems vanishingly unlikely that anyone else was fooled. Especially the way they made sure Erika had no time to check closely. If they thought their family members were really dead, they'd be far too distraught to even care what Erika was up to.

Plus, everyone in ep6 seems to really hate Erika.

[Tazar]

Hi, I've been wondering something.

If EP 1 & 2 were written by Beatrice, and we see in the first one that Rudolf has a "secret" that might get him killed, doesn't this mean that Beatrice somehow knew of this prior October 4th? (That is, if we consider that they were both written before the Rokkenjima accident)

[Cao Ni Ma]

The secret could be anything. Battler used it as evidence later though so he kinda forced it to mean that. In reality it could have been something as stupid as "You know that macho man persona I hava, its all a lie. Im in the closet, help."

[Judoh]

The secret is

Spoiler for spoiler:

Kyrie is Battler's real mom

As for that line about him saying he'll be killed. I think the consensus here is that line shouldn't be taken literally. It's an expression saying someone will be angry at him when they find out his secret.

[Tazar]

Yeah, I know that that was the secret.
What I was wondering is, why does Beatrice know that?

[AuraTwilight]

Plus, everyone in ep6 seems to really hate Erika.

And yet everyone loved the shit out of her in EP5. GM bias erryday.

What I was wondering is, why does Beatrice know that?

Beatrice has effectively infinite money and has authority over pretty much all the servants behind everyone's backs, and most of them are involved in keeping nasty secrets as it is. It's not hard to imagine she used her wealth and power to investigate Battler's lack of visits, then stumble upon Rudolf's sin.

[cronnoponno]

Erika could have just...you know....poked them?


I mean, there's a limit to how much bullcrap your body can take before it reacts, kinda hard to play dead at all with this but I can give that much to them.


Did Erika really have to decapitate them and not...you know....poke them?



I guess she just REAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLY wanted to get him into a logic error, even though the methods she used to do it make her look like complete scum.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by cronnoponno

Did Erika really have to decapitate them and not...you know....poke them?



I guess she just REAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLY wanted to get him into a logic error, even though the methods she used to do it make her look like complete scum.

Pretty much.... Erika had to kill them to make absolutely sure they wouldn't be able to save Battler since she didn't have detectives authority to prove that.

and yeah she describes herself as lugging their heads around in a garbage bag this episode IIRC. She doesn't even try to make herself not look like a sicko.

[Cao Ni Ma]

She really didn't even need to poke them. The moment she saw them and doubted they were dead was enough for her to prove that they were alive in the first place. So she knew full well that they where alive as she started interrogating meta Battler.

[Renall]

Creating the Logic Error was the point. To do this, there had to be no one other than herself capable of entering the room Battler is in prior to the point she unseals it. She has sealed all the non-"victims" in the two rooms and Battler in his with his three seals. This leaves only the "victims."

Since she doesn't have any additional seals, the only way to prevent them from being able to come in and rescue Battler is to make certain they are... indisposed. And lacking any other way to make absolutely sure, Erika must resort to murder.

It all makes perfect sense, if you're borderline psychotic. One could twist Genius Battler into Evil Genius Battler and suggest Battler set the whole thing up such that the only way Erika could force the Logic Error was to become the culprit herself, hence why there was no "true" culprit prior to that point.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Tazar

Hi, I've been wondering something.

If EP 1 & 2 were written by Beatrice, and we see in the first one that Rudolf has a "secret" that might get him killed, doesn't this mean that Beatrice somehow knew of this prior October 4th? (That is, if we consider that they were both written before the Rokkenjima accident)

Easiest solution: Written after.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Beatrice has effectively infinite money and has authority over pretty much all the servants behind everyone's backs, and most of them are involved in keeping nasty secrets as it is. It's not hard to imagine she used her wealth and power to investigate Battler's lack of visits, then stumble upon Rudolf's sin.

Yet she still couldn't seem to get his phone number.

Originally Posted by Renall

One could twist Genius Battler into Evil Genius Battler and suggest Battler set the whole thing up such that the only way Erika could force the Logic Error was to become the culprit herself, hence why there was no "true" culprit prior to that point.

Well of course Genius Battler did that. If Kyrie had actually managed to save piece-Battler then we'd have had no logic error.

It seemed clear to me that BATTLER once he knew the truth didn't really care about pieces any more. This attitude was also apparent when he played Bern's game.

[cronnoponno]

What about confining them to make sure they won't be able to manage to reach Battler? I'm sure she could have found ways to bind their movement, yet keep them alive to shove it in Battler's face. After all, they ''supposedly'' managed to kidnap Krauss, who is probably the strongest human of them all, and keep him bound. If that did indeed happen.


And like...I don't get it, if she just shook them awake and caught them in the act, the entire mystery would have been screwed anyway, so she still could have made Battler look like a douchebag without being a killer. I guess it wouldn't be climactic though.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by cronnoponno

What about confining them to make sure they won't be able to manage to reach Battler? I'm sure she could have found ways to bind their movement, yet keep them alive to shove it in Battler's face.

I don't think she could be sure enough with that to create a Red Truth. After all, just killing them wasn't even enough; she had to decapitate them to be 100% certain that they were dead.

Not that Erika wouldn't just kill them anyway; she's that kind of evil.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by cronnoponno

What about confining them to make sure they won't be able to manage to reach Battler? I'm sure she could have found ways to bind their movement, yet keep them alive to shove it in Battler's face. After all, they ''supposedly'' managed to kidnap Krauss, who is probably the strongest human of them all, and keep him bound. If that did indeed happen.

Because she can't be certain she could have done those things and wouldn't be able to make an argument with red truth this way. She doesn't have the Detective's authority in this episode. Her piece self's perspective is unreliable to her. If she traps them somewhere Battler can just say 'actually you forgot to or didn't succeed' or 'they got out this way' and leave it at that. But if Erika becomes the culprit and kills people she can be certain they couldn't do that because she made sure they couldn't herself.

[AuraTwilight]

Yet she still couldn't seem to get his phone number.

It's wasn't the lack of a phone number that was a problem; she could have asked. It's just that she was afraid to actually talk to him because she was afraid of the worst possible scenario of getting rejected.