To All Groups: I would really cool it on Naruto right about now if I were you.

[Elepsis]

Originally Posted by Elly

uh? In your analogy, you also have a problem with bakasan because he started from the mid 50's. Sorry, but you cant stop every group from subbing naruto, and its not like we claim to be "great",..we are not. But we are trying to improve.

Yes, in fact I do have a problem with bakasan, who started in the mid 50s. If you really love the show and want to do it right, start from the beginning and deliver quality subs the whole way through.

[SpikeS095]

Originally Posted by Shining Celebi

I'd like to add something about the Naruto fansubbers...

I've seen a lot of people going around praising ANBU and AonE about what a good job they do, and then go on to put down groups like Shin-Otakus, claiming that ANBU and AonE are the best quality, work only for quality, while S-O, Bakafish and the like are only speedsubbers whose only goal in life is to get a crappily subbed version of Naruto out. I can see where they come from. ANBU and AonE have subbed Naruto for a long time, and they are fairly good translators - I've noticed a few mistakes, generally in the department of arranging the translations into proper English. In comparison, people assume that S-O and Bakafish, being new and as far as I know, relatively small groups, must automatically suck, and then they go on to nitpick through their subs.

I've downloaded S-O, and it seemed to me that S-O was about the same quality as ANBU and AonE. S-O, however, tends to get their release out faster. I believe that quality and speed should be the concerns with Naruto, and any other show, for that matter. Variety is important, especially with translations. I don't see any reason why S-O should not do Naruto. They want to do a series that's being subbed by another, possibly better group that releases slower. I don't see anything at all wrong with that.

This phenomenon doesn't just apply to Naruto, but to tons of other shows being subbed by multiple groups. Explain to me why Soldats' excellent subs of Monster were getting less downloads than Anime-Keep's version 2 releases? Large groups get the benefit of the doubt from leechers (more often than not), and sadly, it's not always because they are better. Sub a popular show fast and you can get hundreds of your own leechers. I've even seen some cases where leechers don't hear about a show until a more "popular" group subs it: case in point, Kenran Butoh Sai. When Anbu released episode 1 (around the time afk was on 6 or 7 and keep/cg around 4 or 5 if I remember correctly, many a leecher was curious as to what the series was about... it's almost as if series barely exist outside of the large groups). Keep's monster 3v2 has more downloads than Soldats' episode 3 that was released before the v2. Even between afk and keep/cg on kenran, the torrent stats show keep releasing episode 1 a week after afk yet getting substantially more downloads. Big groups get a following whether the quality of their work deserves it or not, and there's nothing you can do about it. It's not because soldats and afk did a poor job (in fact, most agree that they release the best versions of those series)... it's the other group's name that did them in.

Small groups just starting out (as well as established groups that have been forgotten about like soldats and afk and other older groups like l-e and hnk... all of these groups have been around for 2 or 3 years!!) get neither the popularity nor the fame. If you're a subber and that really bothers you, maybe you should ask yourself why you are subbing in the first place.

[aceleader]

And you know,..its called "fansub", its a sub from fans to "the fans". Its our contribution,...we like the anime, so we decided to sub it, thats prolly the main reason why most fansubs are subbing anime to start with

I like how everyone uses this one cliche to justify all their fansubbing needs. I mean look at various points in this thread. It's degenerated down to the same line of conversation as the past x number of threads on this forum.

A: "you guys are wrong for doing this licensed/oversubbed/etc show"
B: "Hey fansubbing MEANS 'by fans for the fans', if you don't like it f*ck off!"
A: "you're an idiot. you guys are still wrong for doing this licensed/oversubbed/etc show"
B: "yeah huh! got nothing else to say? What what??"
A: 'you're still stupid, cause you have no idea what yo're talking about."
B: "oh really. YOU have no idea what you're talking about"
[...etc...]
Admin comes in and finally locks the damn thread.

Same conversation, same baseless and circular arguments, meh meh meh. And it's all because of the same, and now meaningless, cliche. Next time before you new fansubbers whip out the cliche as your cure all, win all, think about what it meant for the ones who originally used it and see if it applies to the current situation. If you don't or can't, then really, f*ck off, don’t use it, and come up with your own reason.

So pretty plz, with sugar on top, stop bad mouthing them and just appreciate what they do for US "the so called fans!"

Fan, or groupie? Think about that for about a minute before answering and using this cliche as well. Are we being a fan of the anime in question? Or are we being the fan of anime in general? What, exactly, are "they" supposed to be doing for "us"? Before you bring outthe next set of inevitable cliches when it comes to this topic, think long and hard about this, not just on the scope of you as a viewer, but also on the scope of you, a consumer in a business model.

If a lot of groups do the same theres only going to be a lot of competition which is good (hopefully) since that will make them work harder for the fans so the fans like theirs and not the others.

Next cliche. Competition? What competition? Competition over what? the number of leechers? Make them work hard so fans will like theirs? Right. Since fansubbers sub things for their egos, shown by the number of downloads they get......... Right. At one point in time, there WAS something called friendly competition(eventhough you'd be hardpressed to even call it friendly), and at one point in time was very very scarce and it sure as hell wasn't a fight over a group of leechers. But that's all gone now. This cliche now is one of the most amusing arguments I see lately, since you'll find no 'real fansubber' who will publicly admit this as competition. So, leecher who said this... if you are even a 'leecher', get on the same page as the subber you're trying to support, cause you're not helping them at all. If you're a fansubber... well then allow my to give you an ego award.

They're just doing it for fun

The other cliche I hear often is "We're doing this for fun!". Are you guys really doing this for fun, or because you have nothing better to do in your lives? Fun implies hobby, not religion, as some of you have so aptly described your fansubbing ways, where you 'won't stop working until the episode gets out, pausing only for checking up a little on some forum now and then (5 minutes like every hour or so) and eating and sleep.' That's hardly subbing for fun. Sounds more like an addiction to me.

===

I'll agree with bayoab for one of the very few rare times in my life. Fansubbers don't care about licenses until their announced. Look at every vocal group on this forum and on IRC. At one point in time during the course of a series they will have said one of the following lines, in some variation or another.
"ADV said they couldn't comment!"
"It's a typo on Newtype! Even though it's in Newtype, the company didn't say anthing yet! So it's gotta be a typo!"
"It's not licensed in the Region 2 area so we'll keep subbing it in english!"
"Noone's made an official announcement yet!"
"But the didn't put a press release on their website!"
"It's not convention season yet, so it can't be official."
"Look they didn't say anything at the convention!"
Fansubbers cling to these excuses to continue what they're doing. If you wanna deny it and claim the trend otherwise, then by all means do so with the proof to back it up.

Even if it becomes licensed you know SOME of these groups will just change their group name and nackname handles, tweak a style here and there and release it just so 'they can keep doing a service to the fans' and claim innocence. My proof? I find it amazingly difficult to believe that a fansubbing group, who is more protective of their scripts than their own lives, along with their public stance on licensed stuff, would willingly 'give up their scripts' to someone else, or easily 'have their scripts stolen from under them'. If you wanna deny THAT trend, please do by all means. I would like see the proof for that too.

===

Before you come wielding the next cliche, "It seems a lot of people forget why a group would fansub, but I guess it's easy to forget if you have never sat down and tried fansubbing and noticed the awesome amount of work that goes with it.," I fansub, and I've been doing this for a long enough time to make enough of a well-rounded statement. If you wish to disagree with what I've said, by all means do so, but make sure you know what you're saying plz.

[DarkPaladin56]

that's a long post ^^

[Kidd]

While you do make some points in your post, I can't agree with it all. Maybe some groups are like what you posted, but I don't think most groups are, at least, not the new groups that I've talked to.

Next cliche. Competition? What competition? Competition over what? the number of leechers? Make them work hard so fans will like theirs? Right. Since fansubbers sub things for their egos, shown by the number of downloads they get......... Right. At one point in time, there WAS something called friendly competition(eventhough you'd be hardpressed to even call it friendly), and at one point in time was very very scarce and it sure as hell wasn't a fight over a group of leechers. But that's all gone now.

True for some perhaps, true for most maybe, but not true for all. For one, I can quote several irc logs with stuff we would never have said if we thought of ourselves as being in "competition" with another group. Of course we also have comments like "wow this ep is coming along very fast.. what if we will actually be able to release this with full quality before even bakafish?", but it's nothing more than what it obviously is, a "what if" thought and it's nothing that makes us actually work faster to get it out to "fulfill that goal", cause there is no such goal. bakafish releases when they release, we release when we release, and ANBU-AonE release when they release, which group is first varies from week to week, but if we were in such a will to compete and wanting to get fame and all.. would we bother subbing an ep after ANBU-AonE releases it? Of course not, but we have continued to make our subs and we have released them, knowing that the only downloads we get then are from people who really want to watch our version and not just the people who want "the fastest". If there is anything that would fill the ego of a fansub group, it's not getting the most leechers because of being first, it's getting a ton of downloads when other quality groups have already released. ANBU-AonE can be proud of their work seeing as they get downloaded a lot even after us and bakafish have released, and we can be proud when we see a big amount of downloads when we release after ANBU-AonE. Now, not that we really have thought about this anyway.. just working on no matter who releases what just to get what we're doing and want to go on doing finished, is what has kept us going. I don't see why everyone needs to do things so complicated and start discussing fame and popularity and what not.. this isn't a court where you need to find the killer, this is the anime fansubbing community. If you say I'm wrong with what I say now, then I guess I might be very very naive, but I prefer to think of people with the best regards I can think of them with, than being sceptic and looking down on what I don't really know. "That's my ninja way" XD

The other cliche I hear often is "We're doing this for fun!". Are you guys really doing this for fun, or because you have nothing better to do in your lives? Fun implies hobby, not religion, as some of you have so aptly described your fansubbing ways, where you 'won't stop working until the episode gets out, pausing only for checking up a little on some forum now and then (5 minutes like every hour or so) and eating and sleep.' That's hardly subbing for fun. Sounds more like an addiction to me.

If you wish to call it an addiction then go ahead, it's not like it's any worse because anyone would be addicted to it as long as they produce good results. I mean who cares if an artist is on crack as he's having a concert? As long as this artist plays the music good, then all is fine. Of course some might think it's not healthy for this artist and that the artist should stop the crack for his own sake, but that's a personal thing for the artist and not anything the fans need to bother with. They simply choose which cds they're gonna buy from the shelves. And really, as long as he's having fun while making those concerts...

But really, I wouldn't say I'm addicted to it, it's just that when I get into something, I'm really into it until it's over. And I think this goes to some level for most people of my group, too. It's such a good feeling to have a finished product in your hand that you can watch so you work to get it done. Whenever I get a torrent file handed to me with the final version of our encodes, and this torrent finally finishes downloading and the torrent goes public and all.. I'm having a nice time checking out the work we have put down in a fullscreen window on my own. Is it egocentrical to want to watch your own work? Then I guess we need to tell Miyamoto to stop playing Mario Kart Double Dash and stop George Lucas from watching his own Star Wars movies on the big screen over and over. But really, this wasn't the kind of "ego" you were all talking about anyway...

I'll agree with bayoab for one of the very few rare times in my life. Fansubbers don't care about licenses until their announced.

Well before they know something has been licensed I don't really get how one can care about these licenses? I didn't know FMA got licensed until I heard ANBU stopped subbing it, at which point I would've of course stopped subbing it myself if I was a fansubber doing FMA. I mean these fansub groups can't know everything in the world, if they don't know something is licensed then the rest speaks for itself. Even though I do find those lines you've put humerous, and I hope for the better of humanity that most of those were made up to mock fansub groups who in your opinion were very uninformed ^_^x

Once again, call me naive, but I prefer to be naive over thinking people in the same boat are plotting something.

EDIT: Made a statement more obvious so it can't be misunderstood (as easily?).

[DarkPaladin56]

we Are doing this for fun ^^
and it just so happens, all the members in a group dont live in one time zone, so while i'm sleeping, people in a group can still do stuff

and god, please stop it with the long posts -.-'
this isnt the world wide debate championships here

[Shay]

Originally Posted by aceleader

Fan, or groupie? Think about that for about a minute before answering and using this cliche as well. Are we being a fan of the anime in question? Or are we being the fan of anime in general? What, exactly, are "they" supposed to be doing for "us"? Before you bring outthe next set of inevitable cliches when it comes to this topic, think long and hard about this, not just on the scope of you as a viewer, but also on the scope of you, a consumer in a business model.

Maybe I have not fully understood your question, as you have mentioned me looking at this as a consumer? And a business model? Hmmm yes I am puzzled as to what you mean.

But ill try and answer......
I am looking at this as a fan of the "Anime" since I Don't speak Japanese, and this perticular anime series will never show in my country, the best we get is Pokemon
So what "they" do for me as a "fan" is not only make this anime available to me but they translate it for me also.
Hope this answerd your question without any of the "cliches" you refared too.

[aceleader]

Note that i have been talking about trends. Of course, on any given trend, there will always be a counter example. If you want to say otherwise towards these trends, then bring along stuff that show a trend towards this otherwise.

===

For a moment, i won't talk about trends, and I will take you up on your offer to call you naive. Not necessarily plotting, but you are being naive.

Of course not, but we have continued to make our subs and we have released them, knowing that the only downloads we get then are from people who really want to watch our version and not just the people who want "the fastest". If there is anything that would fill the ego of a fansub group, it's not getting the most leechers because of being first, it's getting a ton of downloads when other quality groups have already released. ANBU-AonE can be proud of their work seeing as they get downloaded a lot even after us and bakafish have released, and we can be proud when we see a big amount of downloads when we release after ANBU-AonE.

I'd be interested in seeing your logs at a point when you haven't released first to show what you mean here to back up your specific counter example. The point that it's a cliche that has completely lost it's meaning towards the whole of fansubbing hasn't changed though.

I mean who cares if an artist is on crack as he's having a concert? As long as this artist plays the music good, then all is fine.

You've provided a certain situation. Okay, i'll agree with you, if you can find me the live example where this happened. Anyone can come up with a cooked up example, but it's an entirely different thing if the example has actually been happening in a trend.

Then I guess we need to tell Miyamoto to stop playing Mario Kart Double Dash and stop George Lucas from watching his own Star Wars movies on the big screen over and over.

This example really has nothing to do with what I said, which is about how you work on something as you described earlier. The example you talk about here is about enjoying the finished product. Granted I enjoy watching some things that I sub later, but it says nothing about how I subtitle. Also, you notice that George Lucas or Miyamoto were 1) working towards this goal as a job and 2) did not spend every waking hour working. Like before if you wanna bring up something that says otherwise to what I said, where Lucas spent his time on Star Wars just eating, sleeping and working, then I'd be interested in seeing it.

Well before they know something has been licensed I don't really get how one can care about these licenses? I didn't know FMA got licensed until I heard ANBU stopped subbing it, at which point I would've of course stopped subbing it myself if I was a fansubber doing FMA. I mean these fansub groups can't know everything in the world, if they don't know something is licensed then the rest speaks for itself

This is another good example of your naiveness. A good thing with ANBU, Keep, HnK, Soldats, L-E, and many other old groups is that they KNOW what's up with the series they sub. They don't just sub stuff, not caring about what's going on outside of fansubbing. They've actually kept themselves informed. They know if somthing is rumored to be licensed, they have an inkling of if the license has been sold. They investigate websites and even keep an eye on conventions to see if something DID get licensed. If you're subbing a show you love, one would think that it'd be natural to keep yourself informed about the said show in all aspects instead of focusing yourself on just the raw. You bring up another cliched excuse towards licensing that I had forgotten to add. "We just didn't know".

===

The fact that you're hoping beyond all hope that those quotes are fake and intended to mock fansubbers also backs up your naivity, as I have no reason to make up quotes, and those have all been used in discussions in the fansubbing community in both various forums, as well as in IRC whenever a licensing issue comes up.

[LordBrian]

Originally Posted by Elly

uh? In your analogy, you also have a problem with bakasan because he started from the mid 50's.

Yes, I do have a problem with that. I don't believe I made an analogy, but if I did, it would still hold.

[Kidd]

I'd be interested in seeing your logs at a point when you haven't released first to show what you mean here to back up your specific counter example. The point that it's a cliche that has completely lost it's meaning towards the whole of fansubbing hasn't changed though.

I was speaking about that we didn't feel discouraged to release our release just because a "good group" had already released. If we really didn't care then none of this would've happened. I'll post small snippits of different logs so you're not overwhelmed with millions of pages but still see the idea that we're all working hard:

[04:12] <Oshiro> i know
[04:12] <Oshiro> but what is this new ANBU
[04:12] <Elly> its only an anime series you know,..not a big deal
[04:12] <Oshiro> and AonE
[04:12] <Oshiro> doing this under 1 day
[04:13] <Elly> so?
[04:13] <Kidd|ChickensChicken> they were just fast this week
[04:13] <Oshiro> and getting the same quality probably
[04:13] <Elly> I dont remember us competing against them anyways :P

[14:20] <Kidd|CravesChicken> kanji-lookup!
[14:20] <Kidd|CravesChicken> I wonder in what volume that is..
[14:22] <Kidd|CravesChicken> results from look-up so far: damnit Anko's shirt is way more see-through in the manga

[10:49] <AijinKidd> imho we need to stray from the japanese here
[10:49] <Kharkashi> I think so too... I mean, I guess "are you fucking serious?" or "you fucking liar" might work though, but still
[10:50] <AijinKidd> yeah but it removes the effect a more "better" english line would give
[10:50] <AijinKidd> btw, the thing we're having trouble doing right now is what the dubbing companies love doing all the time :P
[10:50] <Kharkashi> fucking/whatever shut up maybe
[10:50] <Kharkashi> lol
[10:50] <Kharkashi> I know

[11:23] <Jilkon> so where are we in everything?
[11:23] <Jilkon> final edit?
[11:23] <AijinKidd> editing seems halfthrough
[11:23] <AijinKidd> then put all in .ssa
[11:23] <AijinKidd> typeset
[11:23] <Jilkon> is it timed?
[11:23] <AijinKidd> encode
[11:23] <Jilkon> k
[11:23] <AijinKidd> yeah afaik it is finetimed... right, everyone?
[11:24] [Kharkashi SOUND]
[11:24] <AijinKidd> I don't have the .ssa though
[11:24] <Kharkashi> editing's more than halfway
[11:24] <Kharkashi> and I don't think it's finetimed
[11:24] <Kharkashi> wait. what did elly say?
[11:24] <AijinKidd> i DON'T KNOW, i HAVEN'T KEPT TRACK
[11:24] <AijinKidd> whoops
[11:24] <Jilkon> leave caps alone kidd
[11:25] <AijinKidd> I should remove that button off my keyboard..

[14:08] <AijinKidd> flashback needs work, I'll whip up some magic
[14:09] <AijinKidd> especially since I noticed a translation error just now, heh heh :P
[14:09] <AijinKidd> not anything major, but if we want to keep the same words when we release episode 4... well yeah, then we'll need to change this or Sasuke's words won't make sense

These are some of the best ones I could find, and more or less none of those would've existed if all we cared about was getting our eps out fast and only cared about speed. That's one big "counter example" imho.

You've provided a certain situation. Okay, i'll agree with you, if you can find me the live example where this happened. Anyone can come up with a cooked up example, but it's an entirely different thing if the example has actually been happening in a trend.

You said we were addicted to the work and I put a similee to what it would be like.

This example really has nothing to do with what I said

Sorry, that happens when I get worked up.

1) working towards this goal as a job and 2) did not spend every waking hour working

I don't see where you want to get with this.

This is another good example of your naiveness. A good thing with ANBU, Keep, HnK, Soldats, L-E, and many other old groups is that they KNOW what's up with the series they sub. They don't just sub stuff, not caring about what's going on outside of fansubbing. They've actually kept themselves informed.

If you think we can't even handle our own interest in the anime then how could we sub? I mean it's all about geekyness. You need to be level 3 geek to check up on licenses and stuff and it takes level 5 geek to start a fansub. What I was trying to get at was that you don't always know. No group can keep track of every single little message given on every convent, each website, each interview and what the english companies had for dinner. But when you're showed the proof of course you'd act properly.

The fact that you're hoping beyond all hope that those quotes are fake and intended to mock fansubbers also backs up your naivity, as I have no reason to make up quotes, and those have all been used in discussions in the fansubbing community in both various forums, as well as in IRC whenever a licensing issue comes up.

Alright, I feel sorry for those people. But whatever you do, don't think Shin-Otaku would say "it was a typo on the site"..

Oh and just before I put "reply" here, voxxie had something to say on irc:

<voxvam> I wouldn't post logs though
<voxvam> The fact that we take time to answer unbiased and unfounded rumours and all the shit we put up with yet still continue should speak volumes compared to the people who ask us to prove we are determined. If they are so blind they can't even see that, I doubt reading a log would make any difference.
<voxvam> And if you want to, you can direct quote me on that.
<voxvam> and I've got some hamburgers to go fry, so later then

[Darth_E_]

Originally Posted by NoSanninWa

Absolutely wrong. ANBU-AoneE started with episode 1, just like 5 other groups did

Thank you for your correction, I didnt watch Naruto till it was on ep40, I only remember TW then ANBU-AONE, ep45. Thanks again

Originally Posted by aceleader

I like how everyone uses this one cliche to justify all their fansubbing needs. I mean look at various points in this thread. It's degenerated down to the same line of conversation as the past x number of threads on this forum.

Interesting,...and I also like how people misinterepet my posts to their liking and taking it as the "truth",..well too bad, its not a justification,...its a fact.

Originally Posted by aceleader

Same conversation, same baseless and circular arguments, meh meh meh. And it's all because of the same, and now meaningless, cliche. Next time before you new fansubbers whip out the cliche as your cure all, win all, think about what it meant for the ones who originally used it and see if it applies to the current situation. If you don't or can't, then really, f*ck off, don’t use it, and come up with your own reason.

My my, thank you for the "compliment". You forgot that we arent arguing, I simply answered his question. Take or leave it, I dont care.

Originally Posted by aceleader

This cliche now is one of the most amusing arguments I see lately, since you'll find no 'real fansubber' who will publicly admit this as competition. So, leecher who said this... if you are even a 'leecher', get on the same page as the subber you're trying to support, cause you're not helping them at all. If you're a fansubber... well then allow my to give you an ego award.

Actually, I find your arguement more amusing. Pretending to know our aim when you dont even know the group or its objective. Just because you sub to inflat your ego doesnt mean others do as well.

Originally Posted by aceleader

The other cliche I hear often is "We're doing this for fun!". Are you guys really doing this for fun, or because you have nothing better to do in your lives?

Yes we find it to be fun,..and we ARE having fun doing it. Just like how you work hard to produce something you like. Believe it or not, again, thats up to you.

Originally Posted by aceleader

Before you come wielding the next cliche.

Cliche? No offence, but keep telling yourself that and you ll eventually believe it.

PS: This shall be my last post here,...I am fed up from all this.

Yours,
-Elly

[Khar]

Just a little note on what Elly ended with... if you don't put your full effort into doing something you truly care about, it 1) won't end up nearly as good as it could be, and 2) you won't feel as satisfied by the end results. I think in saying that "we have fun with this" a more accurate way of phrasing that might be "we care about this, we enjoy caring about this, so therefore we put all our efforts into making it the best we can."

Because that sums it up really. Yes, we're n00bs. Yes, we haven't had a ton of experience yet. Yes, a lot of people are against us soley for those reasons. But that's not going to stop us from doing what we care about. You're stuck with us, that's what it boils down to. Yes, you'll see other shows subbed by us. Maybe take a look at us then, when this "omg Naruto-attack" phase calms down (after it's liscensed).

If any of the above sounds cliche, well, too bad. Just because something is said more than once doesn't mean it's false. In fact it usually strengthens the idea that it may be in fact the truth. You should probably try judging us based on who we are rather than the cliches and lies of the past you're remembering right now. Not an easy task, I know. But you may have an easier time once you see our non-Naruto work. In that case I encourage you to wait until that time, then tell us what you think. Because none of this is doing any of us any good.

[Autumn]

Damn people can be such a bitch....

I think fansubbers can do want they want with their own free times. Why do people keep saying that the speedsubber's main objective is fame? What fame.... so they have a lot people downloading their work,...oh yahooo, thats so freaking great, famous on the internet. I dont think people have the right to tell the fansubbers what they can or cannot do. In the case of S-O I think they did a nice job on Naruto. So what if it is sub by many other groups, they love Naruto, so they like to work on it. They use their own time to do what they like, jeez, leave them alone.

I like to download Naruto whenever, sometimes I like to get as soon as possible sometimes I just wait till later, but I like to have that choice. I am really offended by people who say we are stupid or ignorant for downloading the speedsub, because they assume that it must be a piece of crap, but it is not. You guys don’t know us, so don’t act like you know everything. Also, how can people speak so absolutely about other people’s rationale and feelings, when they don’t even really know the people they speaking badly of? On the subject of trying to produce the best quality fansub, it is admirable, but not really necessary. Because popular series like these are usually going to get licensed, so we should just buy the dvd if we want the best quality.

[LordBrian]

Originally Posted by Khar

Just because something is said more than once doesn't mean it's false. In fact it usually strengthens the idea that it may be in fact the truth. You should probably try judging us based on who we are rather than the cliches and lies of the past you're remembering right now.

Interesting... in one sentence, you're all for stereotypes, and in the very next sentence, you condemn them. Impressive.

Anyway, I don't think anyone is judging your subbing work on Naruto at this point, so there's no need to get defensive. What people are judging are your apparent criteria when it comes to choosing shows to work on. In the future, I would prefer to see you start a series from the beginning, rather than jump into the middle. Since most groups that do stuff like that are out to get the leechers, it just gives people the wrong impression of your intentions.

[voxvam]

Okay, here's a list of facts for people.
1. We started on naruto where it was because it's what the original group wanted to do to start off on. We didn't intend to continue with it, only to familarize ourselves with the process itself.
2. For those who would prefer we start on a series at the beginning, we did release Ragnarok episode 1 (when something like 4 or 5 had been released at that time). I'd look in the past, you might actually see stuff you should expect to see in the future as well.
3. Who says we don't have plans to start Naruto from the beginning? Should we decide to do this would require a lot of time to obtain the neccessary raws and have appropriate manpower; something that a small group like ourselves would most likely have trouble with. Such a venture would take time.
4. Yes, we do plan to do other series. Yes, we do plan to start at the beginning of the series. Yes, we do plan to do Naruto from the beginning. Yes, I'm going to shutup now so you can read what I said, re-read it, then completely argue about what I said pointing out gramatical & spelling mistakes and pointing out cliches.

Enjoy.

[aceleader]

Apparently my hope to talk about trends, as in the number of groups actually working on Naurto, has failed. Also it appears my attempt to actually carry on a meaningful conversation, which explores other facets of the whole thing besides the bringing forth the same weapons to the battlefield, has failed too. So much for the hope for more than 1 sentence retorts. I can hope though huh.

To Kidd: Thanks for your willingness to even post logs. Not many groups are willing to do that. Thanks also for your willingness to even have something of a dialouge into your group. It's nice to know that S-O doesn't go along with this trend that many other fansubbers have seen happen in the last few years. I do however think that S-O is slightly ignorant in the fact that you should know a bit more about the licensing status of the projects you work on. While it's true that you can't know of every note that's passed between companies, there's many other sites that make it their point to follow every note out there. Granted any one series wont be on every note that's passed along, but it would benefit you to look at these sites every now and then. It's better than being the last to know. If you do already, then it appears that I've underestimated aspects of your group and I apologize.

To Elly: It's good to know that you take offense to certain things, but I would claim you're taking offense to all the wrong things. If you reread my post, whether you feel like doing so or not, you would see that the underlying theme to the whole post was whether or not you use the cliche correctly and in the correct context. And yes they are all cliches, as every quote I highlighted and mentioned are all overused expressions, to the point where most everyone has taken them all for granted and forgotten what they were originally used for. Were the cliches in this thread used in the correct context? Who knows. That's up to you as the person who used it and the rest of the people who read it. Were they used as it was originally used? That's a whole new can to be opened by someone in a different thread I'm sure. The current trends that I have seen on this board as well as over IRC have many people just taking those words for granted with no convciction behind them. Sort of a 'follow the pack' if you will. If you truly feel you were using them correctly, all the power to you. I have nothing against that.

To Khar: You're correct in that just because a cliche is used it doesn't means it's false. Nevertheless it's a cliche that's more often than not wrongly used and used in a manner which is false.

To Autumn: I commend you on your resolve to buy the DVDs when Naruto becomes available in your region. I challenge you, however, to stick your head into one of the major IRC fansubbing channels when Naruto gets licensed. Take a silent poll on who actually condemns the company and who plans on buying the DVDs. Then follow the events that occur days or even weeks after the announcment

To voxvam: I don't believe anyone's been pointing out grammatics or spelling, but oh well. Thanks for clearing a few things up with regards to your groups intentions, but I also wonder what process you were trying to familirize yourself with when taking up Naruto? If it was the process of fansubbing, was the need to release a test product necessary? If it wasn't fansubbing, that's cool. I wont pry further.

If anyone else wants to read my first post on this thread as a personal attack on their group, ok... but don't skip over the word 'trend'. *shrug* If anyone wants to call me egotistical and full of myself for considering to be the one great authority who can say whether a group is part of a certain trend or whatever, okay that's up to you. But when you sit in certain channels day in and day out over years, you see things change to a point where you can identify one. If you wanna say I don't know your groups motives, okay, go for it. To a certain degree that's true. You note that I haven't pointed figures to any specific group, which is why I talked about trends the whole time. Provide the proof that you go against the trend i stated. I have no problem taking back what I said if you can prove the trend otherwise. But like I said in my earlier posts, it'll take proof that shows a trend towards the otherwise. S-O has provided a great deal amount of evidence to show their intentions.

[LBW]

Originally Posted by Elly

ANBU-AONE didnt start subbing from the begining, but on the mid 40's IIRC ( someone correct me if I am wrong ). They didnt sub the first eps until later on. We are actually planning to sub the first eps of naruto too, if everything goes well.

As for why? well, its variation. The same case could be applied to most other series where more than 2 subbers are subbing the anime. Not everyone like Aone-ANBU's style/translation/whatever,...people's taste differ. By subbing naruto, we try to bring a new "taste" or alternative if someone didnt like a particular fansub. At the end, its to the fans benefit,..they have a variation of fansubs which they can choose from. People who dont like Aone-ANBU's can use ours or bakafish, people who dont like ours can use bakafish's.....etc ( you get the idea).

And you know,..its called "fansub", its a sub from fans to "the fans". Its our contribution,...we like the anime, so we decided to sub it, thats prolly the main reason why most fansubs are subbing anime to start with

Yours,
-Elly

I can understand you don't like their style (I like tw's more than anbu/aone's but they're just too much behind) and that you want to do naruto cause you enjoy it, but why not start from the beginning then? I kinda seems disrespectful towards other groups in my opinion.. ^^';
I'm just curious btw, don't think of me as someone trying to talk bad about your group. >.>';

[Khar]

Originally Posted by LBW

I can understand you don't like their style (I like tw's more than anbu/aone's but they're just too much behind) and that you want to do naruto cause you enjoy it, but why not start from the beginning then? I kinda seems disrespectful towards other groups in my opinion.. ^^';
I'm just curious btw, don't think of me as someone trying to talk bad about your group. >.>';

I do understand where you're coming from... and I'm not sure I have a real answer for you... Honestly the thought really didn't cross our mind when we started. voxvam was just kind of playing around with SSA one week a Naruto raw was released, and realized he could time, so then he asked Kidd to try her hand at translating an entire episode (she had been working for another quite slow group at the time and was currently obsessed with Naruto so it didn't take much for her to say yes, lol), and things just kind of grew from there really. Maybe we should have stopped to think about it more, I don't know. But personally I'd rather not spend my time dwelling on the past. If that was a mistake on our part, then like I said, it was made because the current episode raws were what was easily accessible for us at the time, and we honestly didn't think it would bother so many fans (afterall we had no ambitions to beat the current subbers whatsoever... in fact we weren't expecting over 100 downloads that week, let alone the couple thousand we actually got that virtually gave us all a heartattack). None of us expected so many people to actually take notice of us right off the bat, and maybe if we had been... we would have thought more about which episodes we were starting with.

But you know, in all honesty... now that we're more experienced and actually sort of know what we're doing (there's still that sort of in there of course, hehe), I think I'm glad we didn't start at the beginning. Because now, when we're actually making plans to start out at the beginning (and we are, we've hinted at it enough in there I believe, if current plans go right), we're confident we can do a decent job. If we were just beginning, and trying to do the beginning episodes... it would have been too much, I think. It was easier for us to learn by just jumping in, plunging ourselves right into the murky waters and chaos that ensued, because otherwise, we may have been too hesitant to jump in at all, and therefore we wouldn't have learned everything we know now. I think we all realize that there will always be a sort of chaos and angry mob following us, just because we plunged in this way, and I think we even realize that maybe we could have taken a better route, but all-in-all I think we also realize that, for better or worse, we have learned a LOT from this. There may have been a better way to learn, yes, but we can't really go back now, can we? We are going to do what we can with starting the series now, however, if that helps at all.

[LBW]

Hehehe, I see.

Well, starting naruto over again would be pretty stupid really, since everyone knows it won't take more anymore until it'll get licensed. Good luck on whatever shows you're still gonna sub though.

[Enragin_Angel]

How could you not know it would happen. If you were any type of naruto fan, you would have noticed that Bakasan went through the same "trend", Darkanime, and some other group whose name I fail to remember also went through that same trend as well. The only way you wouldn't know is if you were stuck watching TW's subs, but then you would also not know that there were newer episodes and would have started at an earlier episode. It's kind of "naive" to think that less than 100 people would download your release if you released it first. And it is naive to think you wouldn't get flak for it since all the other speed groups got that same flak. To say that you're not competing with other groups is kind of dumb because now that you're in the scene, other groups are now competing with you, whether you know it or not. And unless you were a translator, you would probably be watching anbu/aone's subs and using their subs to compare with your own (or maybe bakasan or darkanime).