AnimeSuki Forums

Sorrow-K · 2010-01-25, 00:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

FFFFFFFFFFFU, you're telling me they are running a sponsorship for original anime and all people can come up with are generic moe characters?

Now we really are doomed.

I hope that's not premature judging of an anime because of superficial character designs right there.

Even if Sora no Woto doesn't turn out to be good, it's at least getting people talking which should draw attention to the timeslot. If it's done right in the medium to long term, Anime no Chikara could end up being just as successful and (IMO) important to anime as Noitamina. More anime originals is just what the doctor ordered.

0utf0xZer0 · 2010-01-25, 01:01

As much as I hate to hand the opposition ammunition, even as a moe fan I was very unimpressed with Sora no Woto's characters.

The sign of a well written moe character is when I remember her on her own merits as a character and not because she fits a certain archetype. The sign of a poorly written moe character is when I find myself thinking of the character as a carbon copy of something else I've seen. And Soro no Woto leans heavily towards the latter. The basic equation is:

Soro no Woto characters = K-On characters X (Strike Witches characters + pants)

If this show manages to impress me, it's going to be through something other than its characters.

Vexx · 2010-01-25, 01:23

They'll probably end up killing a few of them to jerk the emotional strings of viewers.... yeah, its not really pegging my interest meter either so far.

Sorrow-K · 2010-01-25, 01:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

The sign of a well written moe character is when I remember her on her own merits as a character and not because she fits a certain archetype. The sign of a poorly written moe character is when I find myself thinking of the character as a carbon copy of something else I've seen. And Soro no Woto leans heavily towards the latter. The basic equation is:

Soro no Woto characters = K-On characters X (Strike Witches characters + pants)

If that's what you still think at the end of the anime, then yes, the show has failed to write good characters. But right now, well, isn't that to be expected? I mean, most "moe" characters (depending on whichever one of the thousand definitions for it that exists out there) follow an archetype at first. But the well written ones evolve into something more before the end, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

As much as I hate to hand the opposition ammunition, even as a moe fan...

Isn't this a sad indictment on how ridiculous the whole moe v anti-moe debate has become. First that it's turned into us v them, and second that the two sides need to screen their own honest opinions from one another, lest it be seen as a concession or fuel for the other side. Let's try not to make this as meaningless and asinine a debate as the whole hardcore v casual rubbish that plagues video game discussions right now.

Sheba · 2010-01-25, 01:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by GDB

Utawarerumono

Can't think of any more that fit the entire description off hand.

Gunnm, Guin Saga and the Bourne series. All belonging to three different genres yet share a (nearly) similar premise, Utawarerumono was not what I had in mind but also counts. And god knows that the amnesiac protagonist premise is one of the most abhorred.

On Sora no Woto, the main draw of the show for me now is the setting. Not the characters, as unfortunate as it sounds.

Flame-X · 2010-01-25, 01:54

If you don't like the state anime is in, then how about watch the older stuff you haven't seen? At least that's what I do since I haven't found anything interesting to watch this season. I went back as old as Record of Loddess War. One of the series I've always wanted to watch so I'm taking advantage of that while winter stuff roles by.

TJR · 2010-01-25, 02:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

FFFFFFFFFFFU, you're telling me they are running a sponsorship for original anime and all people can come up with are generic moe characters?

Now we really are doomed.

Aniplex and TV Tokyo are targeting existing otaku, hence the reliance on current trends. While Anime no Chikara is an attempt at developing original IP, they're still adhering to the tried and true collector's market (territory that Aniplex knows inside out with recent successes like Kara no Kyoukai, Bakemonogatari, Kannagi, and Darker than Black 2).

OTOH, Fuji TV's projects (noitaminA and the shortlived NOISE) are aimed at expanding the market outside the traditional comfort zone.

solomon · 2010-01-25, 03:11

Triple R said it best when a lot of anime is too into it's own folklore. I like calling these kind of anime "inbred" anime cause its a recycling and packaging of otakuish tropes and quirks only aimed at people who are into such things.

THis is necessary financially the internet and games bite into tv market share for general audiences and as otaku will buy their shows no matter rain nor sheet nor shine nor slush.

All I can say is you like what you like and if you do see enough "inbred" stuff then take a break from it. I am very selective with shows (I look for stuff like Noitamina or some NTV stuff) and even I get tired of it.

I do personally think there is too much inbred anime but western animation is essentally the same way, and dont even get me started on reality television so it's all around really.

0utf0xZer0 · 2010-01-25, 03:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexx

They'll probably end up killing a few of them to jerk the emotional strings of viewers.... yeah, its not really pegging my interest meter either so far.

I'd expect nothing less from what essentially looks to be a "moe war story" - a concept I've actually thought about myself on more than a few occassions. However, I just don't find myself caring all that much... hopefully that will change once the lead actually starts flying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sorrow-K

If that's what you still think at the end of the anime, then yes, the show has failed to write good characters. But right now, well, isn't that to be expected? I mean, most "moe" characters (depending on whichever one of the thousand definitions for it that exists out there) follow an archetype at first. But the well written ones evolve into something more before the end, right?

I will admit I'm kind of jumping to conclusions, but most anime that developed interesting characters out of archetypes hinted they were going to do that early on.

The more interesting question is why it bugs me so much in this particular show when the fairly stereotypical characterization in, say, Strike Witches did not. It's probably Sora no Woto's more serious tone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sorrow-K

Isn't this a sad indictment on how ridiculous the whole moe v anti-moe debate has become. First that it's turned into us v them, and second that the two sides need to screen their own honest opinions from one another, lest it be seen as a concession or fuel for the other side. Let's try not to make this as meaningless and asinine a debate as the whole hardcore v casual rubbish that plagues video game discussions right now.

I don't tend to screen my honest opinion on the subject very much. It just pains me to admit certain things on occassion because it feels like I'm stabbing my side in the back. I wish it didn't feel that way, but I can't honestly remember a time when I didn't associate moe debates with defending my tastes from really caustic comments.

I'll admit that a lot of people probably haven't been part of anime clubs where certain members were very... "vocal" about the issue, so perhaps my tendency to instinctively frame the debate in us v them terms is not all that common.

Kaioshin Sama · 2010-01-25, 03:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

I disagree. Sure, 300-long episode series tend to be really bad, but I've seen a bunch of 1 cour series with unfinished stories or badly resolved conflicts, simply because they crave for too much and there's just not time to do it.

I've always felt the problem with 1-cour series is that they rarely get any chance to get off the ground before the end comes if they even try to get a concept going at all. It's almost a rule that 13 episode series rarely end up having a lasting impression with me unless they are planned that way from the start as an original concept.

Seitsuki · 2010-01-25, 03:51

Still, some of my favourite series were 13 ep ones. Sola, Bakemonogatari (pushing it at 15..), Elfin Lied, Haruhi. Ones that go on for longer tend to outstay their welcome and leave me with a more negative impression as the initial love fades and becomes replaced by something akin to tedium.

WanderingKnight · 2010-01-25, 04:30

Quote:

I hope that's not premature judging of an anime because of superficial character designs right there.

I've watched the first episode so, no, I'm not merely basing myself on the design choice (though the design is obviously linked to their moe personalities).

Basically, I just find completely archetypal moe characters absolutely uninteresting after having seen quite a few series with similar characters. Same thing happens with a lot of other archetypes, really, but moe in particular is annoying to me because I don't really enjoy women acting like they're stupid (yes, this is a blatant generalization but it's my opinion of the standard moe character).

PS: Also, my comment was tongue-in-cheek. No, I don't think anime is doomed just because of Sora no Oto.

Slice of Life · 2010-01-25, 05:32

Sora no Oto's atmosphere is different from K-On's fuwa-fuwa mood. It's certainly part moe show but you don't feel as force feed with it. As for Strike witches, I didn't even make it beyond epsiode 1 due to general pantslessness and whatnot. My main concern with Sora no Oto is that they might tease you with details that then turn out to have no meaning whatsoever. Darker than Black says hello. We'll see. In any case, original stories is the way to go if the anime industry proves it can handle it.

roriconfan · 2010-01-25, 05:42

Why are many displeased with the current anime production? Because it produces generic shows or because they have no context?

How many loli and moe shows are more than just eye candy?

Do the consumers only buy on impulse (as someone stated before) and thus all the industry is doing is making things look nice? Because even if the buyers don't like it, they will still keep buying based on impulse. And since the series are now short, there is no fear if the sales drop along the way. They will just make another storyless sequel if it sells or chew the same formula in the next project. And if the consumers buy on impulse it will never stop selling.

I look around me. Most comments I hear about anime are "he was so cool, she was so sexy, it was so cute". Very little if the story was good or if there were blunders in pacing. If that counts for most, then the industry is doing just fine. Not that I like that but this keeps the spice flowing.

npcomplete · 2010-01-25, 07:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by roriconfan

Why are many displeased with the current anime production? Because it produces generic shows or because they have no context?

How many loli and moe shows are more than just eye candy?

Do the consumers only buy on impulse (as someone stated before) and thus all the industry is doing is making things look nice? Because even if the buyers don't like it, they will still keep buying based on impulse. And since the series are now short, there is no fear if the sales drop along the way. They will just make another storyless sequel if it sells or chew the same formula in the next project. And if the consumers buy on impulse it will never stop selling.

No one buys the bulk of their anime on impulse.
No one buys moe just because it's moe, or whatever category.
No one blindly throws away their money.
And it makes absolutely no sense to say "even if the buyers don't like it, they will still keep buying based on impulse"

Anyways, I already posted some examples of what kind of stuff gets made of the 215 releases in 2009 and how only a small portion of some of the best selling DVD/BDs comprise some of the categories complained about here (though some could probably sustain themselves just through other merchandise alone)

Here: just take a look for yourselves at the
Weekly top 20 dvd/BD sales rankings
and the cummilative sales tracked here on animesuki, for a better long term picture; start on the last page and work backwards
(Note: it's more important to compare with the amount of sales-per-volume, as that will you the amount of individual buyers for a show)

I think we can conclude:
- any show of any genre containing any trope is likely to fail
- only a few shows of any genre containing any trope is likely to succeed

Spoiler for examples of recent top sellers -- you will see what I mean:

roriconfan · 2010-01-25, 08:04

^ The eye candy list

chikorita157 · 2010-01-25, 08:26

With the state of Anime going for what we seen so far in Winter season, are we doomed?

If you are very pessimistic, yes... but in my view is no. Sturgeon's Law well may well apply to anime watching because the viewers determine what anime is good or not by watching it. This is why I only watch shows that I have interest in to avoid watching shows that may end up not being good or interest me. Every viewer is going to have a different opinion, so it's not that easy to determine what is "bad" and what is "good" unless you watch it for yourself...

My problem I'm seeing is the excess ecchi and fanservice in Anime. Story/Characters/etc is more important than fanservice and ecchi and it can get very distracting... I can deal with excess moe, but not excess ecchi and fanservice.

GuidoHunter_Toki · 2010-01-25, 09:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by roriconfan

^ The eye candy list

How in the world does that list prove your point at all? Very few of those shows/movies fit the criteria for your "buy on impulse entertainment"(Queen's Blade being the obvious one that does fit them). The majority of those are by no means generic trash.

Quote:

Originally Posted by roriconfan

I look around me. Most comments I hear about anime are "he was so cool, she was so sexy, it was so cute". Very little if the story was good or if there were blunders in pacing. If that counts for most, then the industry is doing just fine. Not that I like that but this keeps the spice flowing.

Haha, you're defenitely overgeneralizing by saying that; "most" my ass. Sure, maybe that is the case with some series, and heck when I used to regular the Code Geass forums I noticed this as well (although it was never to the extreme of being most of the comments). However so what if someone says something looks cool or sexy, it doesn't mean thats the only reason the person likes the show. I love the Jason Bourne movies and almost all I ever talk about with those movie is how cool and well done the action scenes are done. Well that must mean thats the only thing I like about the movie, but thats not the case as I like the characters and plot as well.

Sure there are those people out there, but not as many as you make it out to be.

DragoonKain3 · 2010-01-25, 11:21

Just looking at my list...

Spoiler for 2009 - 34 shows I liked:

Spoiler for 2008 - 34 shows:

Spoiler for 2007 - 37 shows:

So for me, I still got more or less the same amount of shows I liked last year as I had the two years before that. So no, I don't think anime is doomed. This is because despite the fact that we have less shows per season than before (of which coincides with the poor economy), the quality of shows (or at least shows that I like) doesn't seem to have gone down.

As for anime usually being archetype/trope heavy (be it a certain character type, moe, or fanservice), it has always been that way ever since I started watching at around '00. '09 is no more guilty of it than any other year, so I dunno what people are talking about when they specifically complain about it this year when every other year is pretty much the same.

Probably the only difference from before is that moe has been on the uprise recently that certain shows rely pretty much all on it, but it isn't as bad as people make it out to be. I've only dropped a handful of shows in '09 because of this, and I don't see it out of control, despite me generally not liking these type of shows.

And if npcomplete's numbers are of any indication, it ain't that popular either.

Sheba · 2010-01-25, 11:28

If I recall right, moé as we see it now have been raising since as early as late 1990s early 2000s with Card Captor Sakura being the biggest contributor. Also, the more or less fortunate adaptations of bishoujo games like To Heart.

2010-01-25, 01:01	Link #142
0utf0xZer0 Pretentious moe scholar Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Vancouver, Canada Age: 37	As much as I hate to hand the opposition ammunition, even as a moe fan I was very unimpressed with Sora no Woto's characters. The sign of a well written moe character is when I remember her on her own merits as a character and not because she fits a certain archetype. The sign of a poorly written moe character is when I find myself thinking of the character as a carbon copy of something else I've seen. And Soro no Woto leans heavily towards the latter. The basic equation is: Soro no Woto characters = K-On characters X (Strike Witches characters + pants) If this show manages to impress me, it's going to be through something other than its characters. __________________ Signature courtesy of Ganbaru.

2010-01-25, 01:23	Link #143
Vexx Obey the Darkly Cute ... Author Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ... Age: 66	They'll probably end up killing a few of them to jerk the emotional strings of viewers.... yeah, its not really pegging my interest meter either so far. __________________ "It Really IS Rocket Science", Novel series rough drafts; vol. 1 thru vol. 3 complete Volume 4 in work, Visit the thread for short stories!

2010-01-25, 01:54	Link #146
Flame-X Anti-fan Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Earth	If you don't like the state anime is in, then how about watch the older stuff you haven't seen? At least that's what I do since I haven't found anything interesting to watch this season. I went back as old as Record of Loddess War. One of the series I've always wanted to watch so I'm taking advantage of that while winter stuff roles by. __________________ My AMVs \| MyAnimeList \| Last.fm

2010-01-25, 03:51	Link #151
Seitsuki Onee! Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Auckland, NZ	Still, some of my favourite series were 13 ep ones. Sola, Bakemonogatari (pushing it at 15..), Elfin Lied, Haruhi. Ones that go on for longer tend to outstay their welcome and leave me with a more negative impression as the initial love fades and becomes replaced by something akin to tedium. __________________ thanks to Patchy ♥

2010-01-25, 05:32	Link #153
Slice of Life eyewitness Join Date: Jan 2007	Sora no Oto's atmosphere is different from K-On's fuwa-fuwa mood. It's certainly part moe show but you don't feel as force feed with it. As for Strike witches, I didn't even make it beyond epsiode 1 due to general pantslessness and whatnot. My main concern with Sora no Oto is that they might tease you with details that then turn out to have no meaning whatsoever. Darker than Black says hello. We'll see. In any case, original stories is the way to go if the anime industry proves it can handle it. __________________ - Any ideas how to fill this space?

2010-01-25, 03:11	Link #148
solomon Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Suburban DC	Triple R said it best when a lot of anime is too into it's own folklore. I like calling these kind of anime "inbred" anime cause its a recycling and packaging of otakuish tropes and quirks only aimed at people who are into such things. THis is necessary financially the internet and games bite into tv market share for general audiences and as otaku will buy their shows no matter rain nor sheet nor shine nor slush. All I can say is you like what you like and if you do see enough "inbred" stuff then take a break from it. I am very selective with shows (I look for stuff like Noitamina or some NTV stuff) and even I get tired of it. I do personally think there is too much inbred anime but western animation is essentally the same way, and dont even get me started on reality television so it's all around really.

2010-01-25, 05:42	Link #154
roriconfan Banned Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Thessaloniki - Greece	Why are many displeased with the current anime production? Because it produces generic shows or because they have no context? How many loli and moe shows are more than just eye candy? Do the consumers only buy on impulse (as someone stated before) and thus all the industry is doing is making things look nice? Because even if the buyers don't like it, they will still keep buying based on impulse. And since the series are now short, there is no fear if the sales drop along the way. They will just make another storyless sequel if it sells or chew the same formula in the next project. And if the consumers buy on impulse it will never stop selling. I look around me. Most comments I hear about anime are "he was so cool, she was so sexy, it was so cute". Very little if the story was good or if there were blunders in pacing. If that counts for most, then the industry is doing just fine. Not that I like that but this keeps the spice flowing.

2010-01-25, 08:04	Link #156
roriconfan Banned Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Thessaloniki - Greece	^ The eye candy list

2010-01-25, 08:26	Link #157
chikorita157 ひきこもりアイドル IT Support Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Pennsylvania , United States Age: 34	With the state of Anime going for what we seen so far in Winter season, are we doomed? If you are very pessimistic, yes... but in my view is no. Sturgeon's Law well may well apply to anime watching because the viewers determine what anime is good or not by watching it. This is why I only watch shows that I have interest in to avoid watching shows that may end up not being good or interest me. Every viewer is going to have a different opinion, so it's not that easy to determine what is "bad" and what is "good" unless you watch it for yourself... My problem I'm seeing is the excess ecchi and fanservice in Anime. Story/Characters/etc is more important than fanservice and ecchi and it can get very distracting... I can deal with excess moe, but not excess ecchi and fanservice. __________________ Chikorita157's Anime Blog \| Atelier Shiori (Personal Sideblog) \| Tumblr \| Twitter

2010-01-25, 11:21	Link #159
DragoonKain3 Osana-Najimi Shipper Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Mt. Ordeals	Just looking at my list... Spoiler for 2009 - 34 shows I liked: Minami-ke Okaeri Asu no Yoichi Kurokami Druaga 2 Regios Denpa Teki na Kanoujo Haruhi-chan Hayate no Gotoku 2 Tsubasa OVA Asura Cryin Asura Cryin 2 White Album White Album 2 Basquash Haruhi re-airing (Endless Eight and all) Hanasakeru Seishounen Cross Game Natsu no Arashi Eden of the East Hatsukoi Limited Umineko Bakemonogatari Sora no Manimani Tokyo Magnitude Summer Wars Nyan Koi Seitokai no Ichizon Sora no Otoshimono Nogizaka 2 Kyou no Go no Ni ODA Kobato Kimi ni Todoke 11 Eyes Darker than Black 2 Spoiler for 2008 - 34 shows: Kara no Kyoukai Macross F H20 Shigofumi True Tears KimiAru Yotsunoha Allison to Lilia Kurenai Druaga Code Geass 2 Da Capo II SS Kamen no Maid Guy Soul Eater Special A Vampire Knight Vampire Knight 2 Kyouran Kazoku Nikki Mahou Tsukai 2 Nogizaka Haruka School Rumble OVA Lucky Star OVA Akane-Iro Toradora Clannad After Story Yozakura Quartet Kannagi Kemeko Deluxe! Kidou Senshi Gundam 00 2nd Season Kyou no Go no Ni (2008) Macademi Wasshoi! One Outs Chaos;Head Nodame Cantabile: Paris-Hen Spoiler for 2007 - 37 shows: Genshiken Nodame Cantabile Tokyo Majin Gakuen Kenpuchou Tokyo Majin Gakuen Kenpuchou 2 Byousoku 5 Centimeter Hayate no Gotoku Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagan OverDrive Koutetsushin Jeeg Kishin Taisen Gigantic Formula Darker than Black Shining Tears X Wind Terra e... Sola Lucky Star Bokura no Kaze no Stigma Dennou Coil School Days Umishou Higurashi no Naku Koro ni 2 Mushiuta Sky Girls Potemayo Baccano! Bokusatsu Tenshi Dokuro-chan2 Bamboo Blade Da Capo II Myself; Yourself Clannad Goshuushou-sama Ninomiya-kun Kidou Senshi Gundam 00 KimiKiss Pure Rouge Rental Magica Minami-ke Genshiken 2 Tsubasa OVA So for me, I still got more or less the same amount of shows I liked last year as I had the two years before that. So no, I don't think anime is doomed. This is because despite the fact that we have less shows per season than before (of which coincides with the poor economy), the quality of shows (or at least shows that I like) doesn't seem to have gone down. As for anime usually being archetype/trope heavy (be it a certain character type, moe, or fanservice), it has always been that way ever since I started watching at around '00. '09 is no more guilty of it than any other year, so I dunno what people are talking about when they specifically complain about it this year when every other year is pretty much the same. Probably the only difference from before is that moe has been on the uprise recently that certain shows rely pretty much all on it, but it isn't as bad as people make it out to be. I've only dropped a handful of shows in '09 because of this, and I don't see it out of control, despite me generally not liking these type of shows. And if npcomplete's numbers are of any indication, it ain't that popular either. __________________ Yes its YOU childhood friend - source of BERZERKER RAGE since forever Childhood Friend couple STATISTICS(spoilers abound though)

2010-01-25, 11:28	Link #160
Sheba RUN, YOU FOOLS! Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Formerly Iwakawa base and Chaldea. Now Teyvat, the Astral Express & the Outpost Age: 44	If I recall right, moé as we see it now have been raising since as early as late 1990s early 2000s with Card Captor Sakura being the biggest contributor. Also, the more or less fortunate adaptations of bishoujo games like To Heart.