[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 8 Twilight of the golden witch

[TwilightsCall]

See, I was under the impression when reading that EP1 was what 'actually' happened, and then the rest of the game boards were Beatrice and Battler's 'fight to deny the witch' thing. Obviously that doesn't seem to be the consensus though, and with the way they treat the 'actual truth' of what happened in Ep8 it seems highly unlikely now. But you know, thats what I thought while reading Ep 1 to 4 lol.

[AuraTwilight]

Originally Posted by Ryuudou

What is "prime" exactly?

Rokkenjima Prime is basically the 'real world.' Umineko keeps showing us "what-ifs" and "alternate scenarios", even with 1998 itself, so Rokkenjima Prime refers to the actual world of Umineko that all the other Gameboards and stories are based off of.

[Peophin]

I've been a lurker for a while now, and this is my first time posting, but I wanted to speak my mind after reading some of the discussion here.

I understand that a lot of people here are frustrated that Ryukishi has never revealed what happened on Prime despite claiming there is an answer, yes? In my case, I personally have never been interested in the "actual truth." Honestly, in the first half of EP8 I found Ange annoying more than anything, and I was satisfied with the ending.

The thing is, I only started playing Umineko sometime last year, and I didn't even start Chiru until Witch Hunt's translation of EP8 was finished. And obviously a lot of you on this forum have spent far more time invested in this game than I have. For a while, I was honestly confused as to why someone would want to know what happened on Prime, since it had never been an issue for me in the first place. After reading through some of the discussions on here, I think I can finally understand why a lot of people weren't happy with the ending.

Basically, while I have a differing opinion from many of you, now I can (finally) understand where those differing opinions are coming from. It's an issue that's been bugging me for a while, so I just felt like I had to put my two cents in~

[Drifloon]

That's pretty much how I feel honestly.

I think most people who weren't involved in the discussion and theorising about the series were perfectly happy with EP8's ending. Unfortunately, those voices aren't the ones you hear, so one gets the impression that it was a massive disappointment to everyone.

[GreyZone]

I don't have a problem with the ending, but I would be really happy, if R07 AT SOME TIME decides to reveal, or at least hint at the truth. If it is in 3 years, no problem. But if he never does, then i really feel disappointed.

[Captain Bluebeard]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

There's no logical reason for anyone to slaughter anyone.

Yes, I mean an adequate justification as to what would lead him to do it. Of course, when we deal with a serial murderer that kills so many innocent, the reason behind it is bound to be somewhat lead by emotion or even psychological disorders.

However, George DOES have a motive for killing SOME people, atleast; he wants his future with Shannon and if, say, his parents, or Jessica and Battler, or whatever, want to get in the way of that...

Possibly...Then again, just eloping would have nicely solved all those problems, especially when having ten tons of gold at their disposal. Since we're talking Ryukishi here though, your idea would be the first thing that would come to their minds naturally, I guess I just don't like the Geroge culprit theory.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I don't quite understand what you mean with "he never told us to", you mean directly and explicitly? Usually as a reader of a mystery you are supposed to try and solve whatever mystery the main character is trying to solve, you don't wait for the word of god to make it apparent, and Ange has always been the main character of her own story inside of Umineko. She is undoubtly the detective on the Rokkenjima Prime side.

To be perfectly fair, he never said 'look for Prime', but he never said 'don't look for Prime either'. I guess it's not an excuse either way. It depends on what expectations existed.

(To be honest, the Ange scenes 12 years later kinda bored me to death)

Originally Posted by Drifloon

I think most people who weren't involved in the discussion and theorising about the series were perfectly happy with EP8's ending. Unfortunately, those voices aren't the ones you hear, so one gets the impression that it was a massive disappointment to everyone.

I actually theorized a lot, even re-read entire EPs looking for hints, and wasn't bothered by the ending one little bit, I actually liked it. In fact, I also found Ange very annoying at that point.

Though it's easy to see where the disappointment comes from. Many people expected Ryukihsi to clearly reveal all answers in EP8, which is nothing close to what he was thinking of doing.

[Thunder Book]

It's not just that he didn't reveal answers, but the justification given in the story felt like a big "Eff you for even trying to find answers" to some of us.

It's like, why did I even try and solve this just to be told that at the end?

[Jan-Poo]

By the way he didn't properly explain all that happened in the gameboards either.
He couldn't bring himself to write a clear cut explanation not even in a booklet released after the main story which was meant to be an explanation.
He didn't even clearly explained how shkanon exactly worked.

This is pretty shocking from a person who once said that "it's sad to come up with an answer if you have no way to see if it's right or not. If there's no answer, you can't get any joy out of reading the book of riddles".

But it seems that he just doesn't want to give answers now. At Epitanime he even put a veto on any question regarding Umineko and its mysteries.

See, I was under the impression when reading that EP1 was what 'actually' happened, and then the rest of the game boards were Beatrice and Battler's 'fight to deny the witch' thing.

If that was true, it would mean that all the parts with Ange including the meeting between Yukari Kotoboki and Tohya Hachijo at the end of EP8 were just fictions, because in that universe Eva survived.

I think it is very hard to justify all that as being a "game" considering that games are meant to be set on Rokkenjima and work inside the boundaries of the catbox. While on the other hand of the universe of Ep1 we only know what happened inside the catbox and nothing after that.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

But it seems that he just doesn't want to give answers now. At Epitanime he even put a veto on any question regarding Umineko and its mysteries.

Actually no, that's the decision the saff and I took. We predicted that some people would question Ryukishi about his decision regarding the ending, so in order to cut the chase, we asked him to explain the purpose of such ending (and obviously, he kept his stance not to explain the ending of Episode 8).
Also, since a great deal of people most likely watched only the anime, they could have been at risk of being spoiled by questions about mysteries. Therefore, in order to be safe, we took that measure in order not to let anything rampant.

[Drifloon]

It's not just that he didn't reveal answers, but the justification given in the story felt like a big "Eff you for even trying to find answers" to some of us.

It's like, why did I even try and solve this just to be told that at the end?

Were people really trying seriously to solve Prime, though?

From what I can tell, the discussion in this thread from before EP8 was out has been almost exclusively about the gameboards, which I think have been answered adequately.

The mystery that everyone was trying to solve WAS answered, more or less. Though yeah, I wish he'd been a bit clearer about it.

[Jan-Poo]

Actually no, that's the decision the saff and I took.

My bad, still I wonder what would he have answered then.
It is clear that he doesn't want to talk about what is "inside the catbox", but I wonder what he would answer if I were to ask him to give clarifications about all that is outside the catbox, in other words things that anyone from the 1998 perspective could easily find with a bit of research.

I'd have a LOT of questions about that.

Originally Posted by Drifloon

Were people really trying seriously to solve Prime, though?

You can bet I was!
I always cared about it more than the gameboards.

After "understanding who is Beatrice and her reasons", which is the main point Umineko really, I wanted to know what happened on Rokkenjima prime.

The single tricks of every murder in the gameboards in the end are for the most part just cheap tricks.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard

I actually theorized a lot, even re-read entire EPs looking for hints, and wasn't bothered by the ending one little bit, I actually liked it. In fact, I also found Ange very annoying at that point.

While I view the ending as "ok", i have some problems with it. For example the "power levels" of people at the end. In the great library Lambda 1st said "None of us have any chance against these cats", later she just went and kicked their asses and was even almost winning against bern, until Featherine showed up.

Then Battler said "Inside this place my GM powers are gone and me, a human, has no chance against a witch."
then.... lastendconductor.ogg and Battler starts to kick bern's ass, until she starts to attack him with mysteries that kill him.

Then Ange becomes the "witch of resurrection" again, that was last time hinted in EP4... and revives the whole gameboard inside the library....

I had the feeling the ending was rushed in some way...

[Drifloon]

While I view the ending as "ok", i have some problems with it. For example the "power levels" of people at the end. In the great library Lambda 1st said "None of us have any chance against these cats", later she just went and kicked their asses and was even almost winning against bern, until Featherine showed up.

Then Battler said "Inside this place my GM powers are gone and me, a human, has no chance against a witch."
then.... lastendconductor.ogg and Battler starts to kick bern's ass, until she starts to attack him with mysteries that kill him.

This is kind of one of the main themes in the series, isn't it? Tons of scenes in all the games have people overcoming impossible odds because of their force of certain determination...Krauss and the goat even numerically defines it, but there are lots of other examples besides that.

Then Ange becomes the "witch of resurrection" again, that was last time hinted in EP4... and revives the whole gameboard inside the library....

You realise that 'the witch of resurrection' is a symbolic title, right? She originally obtained it by 'reviving' Sakutaro, which wasn't magic at all; she just handed over a copy of the stuffed animal.

The 'revival' of the family was pretty obviously meant to represent the fact that she would continue to believe in her family coming back to her regardless of everything that suggested otherwise.

Remember, the whole of EP8 is implied to be inside Ange's head, you probably shouldn't take it all so literally.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

After "understanding who is Beatrice and her reasons", which is the main point Umineko really, I wanted to know what happened on Rokkenjima prime.

Though that'd defeat the whole purpose of Umineko: A mystery that will forever be a mystery, for both good and bad. Basically it's both about the perfect crime and the perfect blessing...and giving an answer to that defeats the whole message of the story.
Sure, it may suck if you really wanted an answer above anything else. But it's basically the same as wanting [insert famous novel X] to end differently just because you didn't like the ending. I would agree with this point if Umineko actually didn't have a theme or broke it's theme along the way, but it didn't.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

This is pretty shocking from a person who once said that "it's sad to come up with an answer if you have no way to see if it's right or not. If there's no answer, you can't get any joy out of reading the book of riddles".

Well, blame that on him developing as a person. At the time he wrote Higurashi he believed in that point of view, but apparently after getting so much negative criticism and the Higurashi mystery becoming almost ineffective because of spoilers, he wanted to go another route.
He let Featherine say it in EP6: "If I give you my answer, you stop thinking. That would be no fun."
And it's not only an attempt to keep it interesting for himself, but also to keep the work in itself interesting, to keep up discussion about it. Especially in an age of almost instant information about anything it's hard to keep a mystery intact.
You could basically answer the quote from Higurashi by saying: "But what fun is it if everybody is laughing about you, because you haven't found the answer? Or if somebody just jumped out and told it to you because he wanted to feel superior?"

Originally Posted by Drifloon

Remember, the whole of EP8 is implied to be inside Ange's head, you probably shouldn't take it all so literally.

I'd go as far as to say that you shouldn't take anything in Umineko as literal truth, because it is all painted with opinion and belief of the characters, that's the theme.
But yes, especially EP8 is all about Ange coming to terms with what has been said about her family, the incident in 1986, conspiracies, etc.
All those battles fought in that episode can be seen merely as the different points of view (hate vs. love) clashing and what Ange is able to keep for herself.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by haguruma

Though that'd defeat the whole purpose of Umineko: A mystery that will forever be a mystery, for both good and bad. Basically it's both about the perfect crime and the perfect blessing...and giving an answer to that defeats the whole message of the story.

I don't really think Umineko is about "the perfect crime". Of what little I know about it nothing strikes me as "perfect", if anything it suggests everything went terribly wrong.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Sure, it may suck if you really wanted an answer above anything else. But it's basically the same as wanting [insert famous novel X] to end differently just because you didn't like the ending. I would agree with this point if Umineko actually didn't have a theme or broke it's theme along the way, but it didn't.

What's wrong in not liking a story because you didn't like the ending?

Originally Posted by haguruma

Well, blame that on him developing as a person. At the time he wrote Higurashi he believed in that point of view, but apparently after getting so much negative criticism and the Higurashi mystery becoming almost ineffective because of spoilers, he wanted to go another route.

And that's "improving" instead of "worsening" because?
I still strongly believe in the full validity of what he claimed in the past.
This is an "aut aut" situation. He was either wrong back then or he was right.
You prefer the new Ryuukishi, I prefer the one in the past.

My let down is justified because I used to like his style as it was, and now he has changed. Why should I change my view because he did?

Originally Posted by haguruma

He let Featherine say it in EP6: "If I give you my answer, you stop thinking. That would be no fun."

I don't agree with it, I rather agree with the statement that a riddle with no solution is no fun.

Originally Posted by haguruma

Especially in an age of almost instant information about anything it's hard to keep a mystery intact.

Really? In my experience real life has an abundance of murder cases that remained unsolved. I don't need more of that in my escapism. It's already sad enough as it is.

[Captain Bluebeard]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I don't really think Umineko is about "the perfect crime". Of what little I know about it nothing strikes me as "perfect", if anything it suggests everything went terribly wrong.

Actually, the 'perfection' here comes from the definition of a 'perfect crime' Keichi's mother gives in Higurashi. It's perfect because it was never witnessed. Everyone in the future 12 years later just assumes there was a crime in Rokenjima on October 4th, but there is no evidence supporting that. All there is are the two message bottles, which can hardly be regarded as proof for anything.

So, if we assume a crime did take place in Rokenjima of 1986, that would be a perfect crime, because nobody discovered it.

I don't agree with it, I rather agree with the statement that a riddle with no solution is no fun.

It's not exactly like that. Let's put it this way, the very existence for Umineko's story is the cat box itself. A secluded island in the middle of a typhoon. Everything is destroyed in the end, so no one will ever know what happened there during the span of those two days. Based on that premise, Beatrice creates a mystery game that is allowed to exist because of the cat box. That 'truth' as artificial as it may be, is allowed to exist in the cat box until it is oppened. Since it is never opened, she can create as many game boards as she pleases to challenge Battler with.

[Drifloon]

What's wrong in not liking a story because you didn't like the ending?

Because a disappointing ending shouldn't automatically negate all the enjoyment you got out of the rest of the story.

And that's "improving" instead of "worsening" because?
I still strongly believe in the full validity of what he claimed in the past.
This is an "aut aut" situation. He was either wrong back then or he was right.
You prefer the new Ryuukishi, I prefer the one in the past.

My let down is justified because I used to like his style as it was, and now he has changed. Why should I change my view because he did?

Well, that wasn't really what he was saying, was it? You said it was shocking that Ryukishi changed his viewpoint and he explained why he did so. Whether you agree with his reasoning isn't really relevant to that.

Though I personally do like that I had to think about the gameboard's solutions and replay the game to truly understand everything. I got more out of the game that way; I'd never want to replay Higurashi, since it told me everything. That said, I am disappointed that some parts of the solution simply do not have the necessary information in the game, which leads to you having to guess without basis (the reason for the murders past the eighth twilight in Ep1, 3 and 4, for example), which is my only real problem with Umineko.

Really? In my experience real life has an abundance of murder cases that remained unsolved. I don't need more of that in my escapism. It's already sad enough as it is.

That has absolutely nothing to do with what he was saying. The point was that if Ryukishi had given a straight answer, people would be able to be spoiled on the solution very easily.

Since he doesn't give the solution, people have to come to it themselves without just checking the answer on the internet and then leaving.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by haguruma

Though that'd defeat the whole purpose of Umineko: A mystery that will forever be a mystery, for both good and bad. Basically it's both about the perfect crime and the perfect blessing...and giving an answer to that defeats the whole message of the story.

Except it's only a perfect crime because as the author he's a gatekeeper that can hide from us information we reasonably ought to have access to.

Jan-Poo's point about the world outside the catbox being criminally under-developed, for example. That keeps certain things unclear even though they shouldn't be.

Originally Posted by haguruma

He let Featherine say it in EP6: "If I give you my answer, you stop thinking. That would be no fun."

If there is no answer, you never stop thinking because you can't ever come to a conclusion. That's also not fun.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Really? In my experience real life has an abundance of murder cases that remained unsolved. I don't need more of that in my escapism. It's already sad enough as it is.

I don't even care if it remains unsolved in Prime, but at least let us know what's going on.

Originally Posted by Drifloon

Because a disappointing ending shouldn't automatically negate all the enjoyment you got out of the rest of the story.

It shouldn't, but it can.

Originally Posted by Drifloon

That has absolutely nothing to do with what he was saying. The point was that if Ryukishi had given a straight answer, people would be able to be spoiled on the solution very easily.

Since he doesn't give the solution, people have to come to it themselves without just checking the answer on the internet and then leaving.

Except there is no solution, so you can't actually reach it. It's the exact opposite of that problem you just stated, and just as bad if not worse since you can always choose to steer yourself away from spoilers, but you can't choose to reference a solution that doesn't exist.

[GoldenLand]

I don't mind if Ryukishi takes a few more years before he tells us the truth of the game, as long as he tells us. In some ways I appreciate that he hasn't yet told us the solution, because it means that people can still theorise. And there is some beauty in the idea of each person being able to find their own truth. But I don't believe that Ryukishi has given us good enough tools to find the "real" truth, or even a small range of possible real truths. In my opinion, there is really not that much information he's given us which can support Rokkenjima Prime theories, and this is one of the weaknesses of his choice. Person X out of those on the island was the culprit? Well, we haven't been shown a sufficient motive for any of them to kill all of those people. And if it was an accident, we haven't been been given enough info to make a solid theory based on that, either. We can guess, and can have preferred theories, but we have so little info about Prime that it is very difficult to say.

So I'd say that he has failed to give us the info we need. And on top of that, he's refusing to give us the answer at all. If he thinks it will harm the artistic vision of his story by people being able to outright say the answer, that "It was Kinzo, who wasn't really dead!" or "Gohda killed them all with food poisoning, and the bomb went off due to a malfunction" or whatever, I think he is still under an obligation to tell us sometime, even if he puts it off a few years more to eke out the interest in the franchise and let more people have a go at theorising. It's very presumptuous of him to think that Umineko is so special that it does not need the solution to be given eventually, even if that means that what he doesn't want - that being an answer which can be copypasted - happens. A writer of a mystery should give the solution in the end, so that the readers can see whether they were right. At the very least, a writer should give the tools necessary for solving the mystery in a satisfying way, but we can't, because we don't know enough about Prime.

I half suspect that he went for not telling the answer because he thinks the true answer is inadequate. Or that he changed his mind part way through the series and that there is no longer a true answer at all.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard

Actually, the 'perfection' here comes from the definition of a 'perfect crime' Keichi's mother gives in Higurashi. It's perfect because it was never witnessed. Everyone in the future 12 years later just assumes there was a crime in Rokenjima on October 4th, but there is no evidence supporting that. All there is are the two message bottles, which can hardly be regarded as proof for anything.

So, if we assume a crime did take place in Rokenjima of 1986, that would be a perfect crime, because nobody discovered it.

But that's not true. There is a witness, and that's a witness that was supposed to be a victim no less.

The very fact that she survived is the proof that it wasn't a perfect crime.

Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard

It's not exactly like that. Let's put it this way, the very existence for Umineko's story is the cat box itself. A secluded island in the middle of a typhoon. Everything is destroyed in the end, so no one will ever know what happened there during the span of those two days. Based on that premise, Beatrice creates a mystery game that is allowed to exist because of the cat box. That 'truth' as artificial as it may be, is allowed to exist in the cat box until it is oppened. Since it is never opened, she can create as many game boards as she pleases to challenge Battler with.

But that wasn't Beatrice's purpose at all.
The only reason she did what she did was to create a desperate situation to call forth a miracle. A miracle that unfortunately didn't happen.

All that happened after the explosion was not what Beatrice truly wanted. And the wild speculations that occured later as well as the creation of infinite forgeries weren't part of Beatrice's plan and in fact EP8 pretty much says that they are "evil" and Ikuko makes them stop.

Originally Posted by Renall

I don't even care if it remains unsolved in Prime, but at least let us know what's going on.

Of course. It's perfectly acceptable as long as the reader gets to know the truth. Unless the truth has never been important in the first place, but it's too late to tell me that after I've spent years trying to figure it out.