General Discussion on the Shichibukai [Manga]

[Kafriel]

Seeing the concept of a neutral setting, does it include sunlight? (if so, Moria would be the weakest one, since he wouldn't be able to use shadows)
About the power cycles: I kinda expect it to come down to this at some point in time, although I can't see Mihawk or DonFlamingo losing to anyone....yet

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Hold on a second here. I just thought of something that can completely change the outcome of this battle (Crocodile vs. Moria). Shouldn't Moria technically be allowed to use his Zombie army against Crocodile, since they are all extensions of his power and ability? I feel that if we take his army away from him, then we are significantly weakening Moria. Moria's whole combat principle is to rely on others to fight for him and only step in as a last resort. Since his shadow powers grant him the ability to accomplish this, I think we should perhaps allow his army to fight alongside him since they are a part of his own power. If we deprive him of this, then we are taking away the maximum potential of his devil fruit that can be put to use. With that being said, this means that Moria would be allowed to use Oz to fight for him.

I want to get some feedback from you guys regarding this scenario. Because if Moria does use his army against Crocodile, he is pretty much a goner since there are hundreds of zombies that cannot be killed and he can even order some of them to find some water and pour it over Crocodile. Once he's wet, Crocodile is practically defenseless since there are so many attackers on him that can actually hurt him. Moreover, if Oz hits him even once when he's wet, he will be KO'd.

[Kafriel]

That makes me wonder if there is salt in sand...that would make things a lot more interesting can zombies stand the sunlight? well, either way, Oz is a great asset (considering he has Luffy's shadow), being too fast and stong for pretty much anyone to beat. In this fight, Oz's large body would cast shadows to be exploited by Moria, enhancing his attacks quite a bit.

[AceD]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

That makes me wonder if there is salt in sand...that would make things a lot more interesting can zombies stand the sunlight? well, either way, Oz is a great asset (considering he has Luffy's shadow), being too fast and stong for pretty much anyone to beat. In this fight, Oz's large body would cast shadows to be exploited by Moria, enhancing his attacks quite a bit.

theres fairly high amounts of salt in beach sand for obvious reasons, desert sand i dunno....id assume to. That completely nulls the thought of Moria's zombie army been helpful

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

That makes me wonder if there is salt in sand...that would make things a lot more interesting can zombies stand the sunlight? well, either way, Oz is a great asset (considering he has Luffy's shadow), being too fast and stong for pretty much anyone to beat. In this fight, Oz's large body would cast shadows to be exploited by Moria, enhancing his attacks quite a bit.

I don't see a reason why the zombies wouldn't be able to stand the sunlight. They all have shadows inside them, so they shouldn't be disintegrated by the sun.

Originally Posted by AceD

theres fairly high amounts of salt in beach sand for obvious reasons, desert sand i dunno....id assume to. That completely nulls the thought of Moria's zombie army been helpful

I agree that Moria's regular zombie henchmen wouldn't pose much of a problem against Crocodile. Crocodile could just sandstorm all of them in addition to using his quick sand pit. Some sand would be bound to get inside their mouths when using such techniques, and then they would be purified and unable to fight for the rest of the battle.

The real problem here is Oz. Moria is pretty much a God when fighting alongside him. Recall that with Oz, Moria was pretty confident that he wouldn't have lost to Kaidou (one of the 4 emperors). And it definitely shows what high level of power he was at, since him and Oz completely decimated the strawhat crew (except Luffy) with ease. Furthermore, you need a lot of salt to purify Oz, so a little bit of sand from Crocodile wouldn't do any good. Not only that, it would be difficult for Crocodile to put sand in Oz's mouth since he is so tall and big.

[james0246]

^If we are going to (partially) limit Crocodile's powers by putting him a neutral non-Desert based setting, then it seems only fair that Oz is left to the side as well. Even if Moria just has his general zombies, the force would still be sfficient to battle Crocodile (remember, amongst the ranks of the generals were Zombies like Ryuuma, a person almost as strong as Zoro (with one sword), and there were quite a few other high level zombies that were killed off by Oz before they could actually battle the Strawhats).

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by james0246

^If we are going to (partially) limit Crocodile's powers by putting him a neutral non-Desert based setting, then it seems only fair that Oz is left to the side as well. Even if Moria just has his general zombies, the force would still be sfficient to battle Crocodile (remember, amongst the ranks of the generals were Zombies like Ryuuma, a person almost as strong as Zoro (with one sword), and there were quite a few other high level zombies that were killed off by Oz before they could actually battle the Strawhats).

The thing is, Crocodile can compensate for being put in a neutral non-desert based setting since he can convert the terrain into sand with "Ground Death". In other words, he can always make "land" battlegrounds become deserts with just the touch of his hand. So in the end, his powers will be amplified no matter what. If Crocodile is allowed to use his fruit to his full potential, why can't Moria have the same right by using Oz? The way I see it, Moria using Oz and his army as weapons is the same as Mihawk using his black sword. The army and sword are both extensions of their powers and abilities.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

The thing is, Crocodile can compensate for being put in a neutral non-desert based setting since he can convert the terrain into sand with "Ground Death". In other words, he can always make "land" battlegrounds become deserts with just the touch of his hand. So in the end, his powers will be amplified no matter what. If Crocodile is allowed to use his fruit to his full potential, why can't Moria have the same right by using Oz? The way I see it, Moria using Oz and his army as weapons is the same as Mihawk using his black sword. The army and sword are both extensions of their powers and abilities.

I disagree. You seem to be arguing that Crocodile's Ground Seco and Ground Death are instanateous processes that instantly turn any and all surroundings into sand, when in fact we know that each attack takes time, time that Crocodile would not have if he were facing an Oz-weilding Moria. So, by putting Crocodile on neutral ground, we are effectively placing a minor limit on his abilities (the limit only exists for specific techniques like Ground Death or Desert Sunflower, but basic absorbition techniques (like Barchan and Desert Prison) would still be near instantaneous), and consequently we should do the same with Moria and take away Oz. If you really want Oz there so badly, then all fo the other zombies have to be taken away instead.

Ideally, to make this fight truly fair, so that we can decide a possible victor, all of Crocodile's and Moria's secondary abilities should be forfeit (Crocodile's absorbtion/dehydration abilities, which are not true abilities of the Suna Suna no Mi; and all of Moria's zombie abilities (since they are based on Hogback's powers and are secondary to controling shadows). In such a scenario, Crocodile would still be slightly ahead, but as has been stated earlier, they would be more or less equal to each other.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by james0246

If you really want Oz there so badly, then all fo the other zombies have to be taken away instead.

That's fine. I see Oz to Moria as the Black Sword to Mihawk. They are both just weapons they use. Moria was planning on taking on Kaidou with Oz, after all.

Originally Posted by james0246

Ideally, to make this fight truly fair, so that we can decide a possible victor, all of Crocodile's and Moria's secondary abilities should be forfeit (Crocodile's absorbtion/dehydration abilities, which are not true abilities of the Suna Suna no Mi; and all of Moria's zombie abilities (since they are based on Hogback's powers and are secondary to controling shadows). In such a scenario, Crocodile would still be slightly ahead, but as has been stated earlier, they would be more or less equal to each other.

Fair enough. How about if Moria just uses Oz then, since he is actually inside of him and directly controlling him?

[james0246]

One more point as to why Oz cannot be used: Oz has Luffy's shadow...

If it is Moria using Oz, then, I am sorry to say, the only way Crocodile could defeat him is if they were fighting in the middle of a desert. Otherwise, Oz is simply to big for any of the 'Blade' attacks that Crocodile has, and the various absorption attacks would be mostly ignored if not outright made impossible to use (considering that Oz could simply leap in the air and then jump on top of Crocodile, or any number of other such attacks).

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by james0246

One more point as to why Oz cannot be used: Oz has Luffy's shadow...

But Oz having Luffy's shadow (or any shadow for that matter) is the only way he can be used in the first place. We've only seen him fight with Luffy's shadow, so that's what we have to go by. Otherwise, he's just a big frozen corpse. Any zombie cannot be given life if there is no shadow implanted into it.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

But Oz having Luffy's shadow (or any shadow for that matter) is the only way he can be used in the first place. We've only seen him fight with Luffy's shadow, so that's what we have to go by. Otherwise, he's just a big frozen corpse. Any zombie cannot be given life if there is no shadow implanted into it.

Within this hypothetical situation we are creating all of these suppositions for, we are only debating the powers of the 2 Shichibukai. Now, while the greatness of Moria's Zombie army is based on the fact that he stole the shadows of thousands, the fact that the majority of them are grunts is what allows us to suppose that any pirate/marine/sailor could have replaced the majority of them (meaning that individual shadows for the majority of the Zombies do not matter). But, by using Luffy (and his crew...even Brook), we are needlessly altering the supposition to include the posibility that Moria defeated the Strawhats.

So, unless we also assume that Moria simply used some other similar level (to Luffy) pirate, we cannot use Oz in the equation because that would indicate Luffy's demise. And, since we cannot fully describe how an Oz without the shadow of Luffy would fight, it becomes hard to say for certain what would happen in the fight.

This is why I advocate a Moria vs. Crocodile theoretical fight without their extra/secondary abilities. This way, there is no need to worry about all of the extraneous details, and we can simply focus on the two characters and their basic abilities.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

All right then. Here is the best way of putting this.

Fighting With Only Primary Abilities
Crocodile >= Moria

Fighting With Secondary Abilities As Well
Moria > Crocodile

So, in a one on one fight in a neutral setting, Crocodile is stronger than Moria; whereas when they are fighting with their secondary abilities, Moria is overall potentially stronger than Crocodile. But since these tiers are strictly based on 1 vs. 1 scenarios with no power extensions (neutral setting), the final general consensus has come to this:

Crocodile >= Moria

[Kafriel]

Hmm...although Moria's powers are greatly reduced without his zombies, I guess I'll settle for this too. Considering the first case, Moria would probably win against most enemies (just having Ryuuma and Oz would give him an enormous advantage) and, while he isn't that strong with just his scissors and his own shadow, he can still fight...although he'd probably lose against Crocodile,mainly because of the way he fights.

[kingsky123]

moria should get more points since it might rain in a neutral setting. and if it rains crocodile is scrrrewwweedd

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by kingsky123

moria should get more points since it might rain in a neutral setting. and if it rains crocodile is scrrrewwweedd

I've already addressed this weather issue. Read my second paragraph in post #352 to see why raining is not allowed. Having said that, the current ranking still stands.

If you're interested in how we got to such a conclusion, our whole discussion took place from post # 341 to post # 373.

[Master Mold]

Yo blackbeard D Kuma how did you feel about seeing Luffy being sent to Level 5, while Crocodile is on level six?

[james0246]

Originally Posted by JINBEI

Yo blackbeard D Kuma how did you feel about seeing Luffy being sent to Level 5, while Crocodile is on level six?

Sorry, I am not Blackbeard , but:

Considering the fact that all of Luffy's "crimes" have been covered by the government, I have no idea why he wasn't assigned to the 6th Level. I assume is simply because he hasn't reached the noteriety of the other pirates, but, even still, wouldn't you place a pirate that destroyed one of your main bases on Level 6? Honestly, it feels a little bit like plot contrivance, just to keep Luffy apart from Ace.

[junte86]

the point of luffy being thorwn to level 5 was it was supposed to be his deathbed. no one expected luffy to live so magellan just wanted to put him away someplace..

and I do belieave Luffy is legit for level 6 but than I am not sure about his notority.. but threat to the government part I belieave he is qualified (although since we dont know about level 6 It kinda hard to have a place that is worse than level 5..)

[junte86]

and About Moria and Croc Although I love croc more than moria.. and I belieave current moria cannot beat Croc because he is no longer participating in battle..
after being defeated by Kaidou Moria became to laid back.. and relyed on his subordinats although this might made him stronger overall but indivisual strengthwise by looking at his battle with Luffy(self-destructing himself really..) I think Croc's cold and calculating stretegy will give him the upperhand


(I do not know about Moria when he fought with Kaidou though.. since he fought with him equally.. but than Kaidou might be the weakest four emperors who have the strongers crewmembers... since Kaidou's crew slaughtered Moria's crew... its an impressive feat.. I guess. changing Moria to what he is now..