Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[The American Average]

You know monster, using Amuro Ray the biggest, most well known character, most important character in all of Gundam and comparing it to useless bridge bunny Miriallia is hilarious on how far you are pushing her importance.

you see my problem with Gundam, heck anime in general, is how the power of friendship drives everything and can overcome anything, not logical outcomes, not planning out ideas, or anything like that. i find it stupid as plot armor

[S.Freedom]

Ok..... So you are saying Mir should have told Kira to go screw himself because you find the concept of friendship stupid....

Perhaps it's me, but friendship is really not meant to be rational or logical. I mean how many completely stupid things have you scene a guy do in the name of friendship and nothing else. To me that's the whole friggn point of friendship. Doing things for your friend(s) that aren't exactly rational/logical for no other reason than he or she is your friend. That and the resulting expectation that said friend will do something equally dumb/irrational/illogical for you at some point in the future.

[The American Average]

No i'm not saying "screw you and your friendship" i just saying why did Miri show up at all. just saying friendship is the thing you use to fill plot holes or other plot stuff is a weak cop out.

Comparing real world friendship to anime friendship is silly to me.

[Admiral Larsen]

Originally Posted by The American Average

You know monster, using Amuro Ray the biggest, most well known character, most important character in all of Gundam and comparing it to useless bridge bunny Miriallia is hilarious on how far you are pushing her importance.

you see my problem with Gundam, heck anime in general, is how the power of friendship drives everything and can overcome anything, not logical outcomes, not planning out ideas, or anything like that. i find it stupid as plot armor

I know how you feel, particularly about planning out ideas. If they had done that, then a lot of the problems could have been avoided in in shows such as SEED Destiny.

Sometimes I wish we can send all of these guys to the "school of JMS" to learn how to write. And if you're wondering JMS is the creator of Babylon 5.

[Cherudim Arche]

Originally Posted by The American Average

You know monster, using Amuro Ray the biggest, most well known character, most important character in all of Gundam and comparing it to useless bridge bunny Miriallia is hilarious on how far you are pushing her importance.

you see my problem with Gundam, heck anime in general, is how the power of friendship drives everything and can overcome anything, not logical outcomes, not planning out ideas, or anything like that. i find it stupid as plot armor

Originally Posted by Admiral Larsen

I know how you feel, particularly about planning out ideas. If they had done that, then a lot of the problems could have been avoided in in shows such as SEED Destiny.

Sometimes I wish we can send all of these guys to the "school of JMS" to learn how to write. And if you're wondering JMS is the creator of Babylon 5.

Friendship, whether it is anime or real life, isn't treated as plot hole for they have their role as so do you. Would you rather have someone treat you as plot hole when you are use in a context. It isn't exactly "good". Then what do you do call you meeting your friends "nap time" or some other name. People have their reasons, some more logical than others, while other are less irrational. For it must bring them them some form a satisfaction, to bringing them to understand each other even more. Furthermore, she brings information that Kira doesn't know other than reconnecting with them. Miri wouldn't have join had she not felt lonely or a sense of wanting beside just clients.
There is also the issue that if you are going to talk plot hole, then involve luck and other elements. If your not, then are treating plot hole as your fill the blank word without any way to push the issue forward.

On the plot hole part, I feel I would have accept it better had you use other words than plot holes to explain your behavior beyond simply disliking.

On Amuro Ray, I agree with monster. Do you expect him take a job as a journalist or other odd jobs? For that is pretty much what your asking in return.

Larsen, that won't change fundamentals of destiny. It's like saying Sunrise will give you every option, but you are not allowed to do have any of them. Personally, wouldn't it be better to know the specific guidelines rather than dismiss this and that. For that would end entangling yourself with too many what not and what ifs, instead of doing something actual substance that would give a reason for Bandai and Sunrise to consider revisions on destiny.

[The American Average]

Originally Posted by Cherudim Arche

On Amuro Ray, I agree with monster. Do you expect him take a job as a journalist or other odd jobs? For that is pretty much what your asking in return.

what about Amuro? i don't even know what you're trying to say. Amuro was under house arrest for 7 years its not like he could just go get a job because he felt like it.

Originally Posted by The American Average

Amuro helped with the plot immensely, by helping Kamille and help win several battles that changed the outcome of the show, Miriallia didn't do anything that close to help the plot at all.

Originally Posted by monster

Except Amuro himself didn't need to be the one to do those things.

If you're agreeing with monster in saying Amuro wasn't needed at all in Zeta, then you need to watch it again. like i said comparing Miri coming back in story to Amuro is stupid.

[monster]

Originally Posted by The American Average

You know monster, using Amuro Ray the biggest, most well known character, most important character in all of Gundam and comparing it to useless bridge bunny Miriallia is hilarious on how far you are pushing her importance.

It's sad how you're making such a big deal out of them adding Miriallia in Destiny and calling it fan pandering while adding the, what was it? "biggest, most well known character, most important character in all of Gundam" in Zeta is not fan pandering? Give me a break.

[The American Average]

Originally Posted by monster

It's sad how you're making such a big deal out of them adding Miriallia in Destiny and calling it fan pandering while adding the, what was it? "biggest, most well known character, most important character in all of Gundam" in Zeta is not fan pandering? Give me a break.

You are seriously going to go with that? jeez dude everyone likes Amuro Ray to some extent. and Amuro wasn't fan pandered during his run in Zeta, unlike the Characters in Seed to Destiny. So you give me a break

[monster]

Originally Posted by The American Average

everyone likes Amuro Ray to some extent.

Exactly. Bringing someone in who everybody likes is pandering to them.

[The American Average]

Originally Posted by monster

Exactly. Bringing someone in whom everybody likes is pandering to them.

Yes, yes you are absolutely right!! however when you bring back someone they should do something important! Miri didn't do jack while Amuro did do something, but We should be comparing Amuro to Kira. cause there is absolutely no point in Miri coming back the whole "Athrun knew her" bit is a weak counter. there are millions of other ways to bring someone together, a freaking email would work.

[monster]

Originally Posted by The American Average

when you bring back someone they should do something important!

Says who?

there are millions of other ways to bring someone together, a freaking email would work.

And there are other ways to do Zeta without Amuro as well.

Again, you're making too big a deal over a minor character.

[The American Average]

I'm having fun reading your comments monster i'm to the point that i think you are just trolling me even if your not its been fun reading them.


Zeta would have changed drastically if Amuro wasn't there, don't forget that he did stuff after Zeta, you know CCA, kinda saved the world. and your right about this Miri thing, she is a pointless minor character why do i even have to explain that

[Skye629]

Sorry Monster but I have to go with the American Average here

Amuro was extremely key to the plot

But before I get to that his inclusion was not due to the "fans" as MSG at that point was NOT as popular or known as it is today, same goes for the characters

Amuro was included because:

-Did the thing that all older characters do: Add continuity to the story
-Character interactions: Especially with Char (debating their past while also debating over Kamille's future) and Kamille (as a mentor)
-He saved the cast so many times, especially when the rammed the...eh I the name is escaping me....that yellow and green round MA that flies and transforms....when it was about to kill everyone aboard the....goddammit the names keep escaping me...the orange transport ship which started with an "A"
-Allowed key AEUG characters to get back to space halfway(?) through the plot after the Jaburo operation and the following events
-Big ass moral boost to AEUG/Karaba
-MS force leader who served through the entire Gryps war on Earth (not sure about the followup Neo Zeon war though)
-This is not confirmed by me but I read somewhere theres some stuff about him in a Zeta Plus and his exploits during the war (feel free to correct me)

I would also like to note that there was NOBODY at this point in UC who could match Amuro's reputation/fame and piloting skills other than Char (who was already in the AEUG). So saying "someone else could have done what he did" is a big understatement


.......yeah......Miriallia is not a really good comparison..........

[monster]

Originally Posted by The American Average

and your right about this Miri thing, she is a pointless minor character why do i even have to explain that

You tell me, you're the one that's making a big deal over her.

Originally Posted by Skye629

Amuro was extremely key to the plot

If Amuro is important, it's only because he's written that way.

But before I get to that his inclusion was not due to the "fans" as MSG at that point was NOT as popular or known as it is today, same goes for the characters

Uh, I'm pretty sure MSG was relatively more popular at the time than SEED was in 2004.

By the time Zeta came around, there were already the movie compilations and the reruns which had high ratings, correct me if I'm wrong.

Amuro was included because:

-Did the thing that all older characters do: Add continuity to the story
-Character interactions: Especially with Char (debating their past while also debating over Kamille's future) and Kamille (as a mentor)
-He saved the cast so many times, especially when the rammed the...eh I the name is escaping me....that yellow and green round MA that flies and transforms....when it was about to kill everyone aboard the....goddammit the names keep escaping me...the orange transport ship which started with an "A"
-Allowed key AEUG characters to get back to space halfway(?) through the plot after the Jaburo operation and the following events
-Big ass moral boost to AEUG/Karaba
-MS force leader who served through the entire Gryps war on Earth (not sure about the followup Neo Zeon war though)
-This is not confirmed by me but I read somewhere theres some stuff about him in a Zeta Plus and his exploits during the war (feel free to correct me)

All what you posted had to be written. It wasn't as if they had to be that way. And the continuity is already served with other MSG characters already in Zeta.

I would also like to note that there was NOBODY at this point in UC who could match Amuro's reputation/fame and piloting skills other than Char (who was already in the AEUG). So saying "someone else could have done what he did"

Amuro's reputation is irrelevant. He was a regular soldier by the time Zeta came around, so it's not like the plot demanded that he showed. And in fact, he only appeared for a while, if my memory is correct, before disappearing again until CCA.

By the way, I'm not against Amuro being in Zeta.

I just find it silly that someone would raise issue with a relatively minor character like Miriallia being included in Destiny.

[The American Average]

Originally Posted by monster

If Amuro is important, it's only because he's written that way.

Then what's the point of any character when you think like that? come on dude you're just disagreeing to disagree at this point.

[monster]

Originally Posted by The American Average

Then what's the point of any character when you think like that?

The point of any character is to serve whatever role the writer chose for them. In this case, Amuro had his role in Zeta and Miriallia had her role in Destiny. That one had a more important role than the other is beside the point.

But let me bring this full circle. You originally implied that Destiny suffered due to fan pandering. This is the first time I see anyone using Miriallia specifically as example of fan pandering. Most people would use Kira or Lacus, but then again, they serve even more crucial roles in Destiny than Amuro did in Zeta.

So if you you're okay with Amuro because he had an important role, then you should be okay with Destiny too.

Unless, of course, you insist in saying that Miriallia was why Destiny suffered in your opinion.

[The American Average]

I'll say it again

Originally Posted by The American Average

come on dude you're just disagreeing to disagree at this point.

funny you should also bring the beginning of our discussion

Originally Posted by The American Average

but this debate is going to lead to nowhere, it'll end up as "this person's word, against that person's word"

firstly my starting comment was a question about "did fan pandering affect any other gundam series?" then I stated Miri as an example, then you went on to "was Amuro needed?" Which is a terrible comparison character to choose. Then i totally forgot about you and went on with the discussion about friendship tops logic. Then you went back a couple of comments saying amuro wasn't needed, again, how Miri knew Athrun and that was a reasonable reason for a character return. Power of friendship discussion some more. then you did a 180 saying if Miri was fan pandering what about Amuro? then we went back and forth on how Amuro was important, then you said I was making a big deal out of Miri. I could care less about her i was fine with the explanation BladeEntity made a couple of pages back you're the one who kept going on about Amuro and Miri.

Originally Posted by BladeEntity

I thought that Miri was part of terminal the whole time, and being a photographer was her cover, hence she knew the proper channels to contact the AA.

so yeah a pointless discussion but it was a funny ride though

[monster]

Originally Posted by The American Average

"did fan pandering affect any other gundam series?" then I stated Miri as an example,

So you are saying that Destiny suffered because of Miriallia?

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Wow, I never thought that Miriallia would cause this much arguments .

Anyway, I'm not gonna jump into this debate. Instead, I’m gonna share this small trivia about Miri (for those who don't know). Before re-joining the AA, she actually met the Astray Red Frame Mars Jacket Full Armor when she was taking photos of Junius 7 fragments that fell on earth .

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For those who don’t know about Astray Mars Jacket, it’s the suit Lowe Gear used during his time on Mars, but then it got stolen during the trip home to earth (in a rather hilarious way ) by Deago Lowell, a Mars colonist.

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Before falling to Earth and met Miri, Deago and the Mars Jacket actually helped breaking some large pieces of the Junius 7 on his own during the terrorist attack. During the operation, Shiho actually managed to see a glimpse of it before Yzak called her back due to the tough atmosphere surrounding the falling Junius 7.

[Destined_Fate]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

give me irrefutable proof that Fllay was his "one true love". There isn't any. official sources state he loved neither Fllay or Lacus in Seed and I can see that. Fllay he holds a huge amount of guilt towards and being with her only made that worse. so of course he's not going to get into another relationship until he could put the past behind him which is why he didn't kiss Lacus. Knowing that Fllay had been taken onto a ship with a madman because he could get to her isn't going to help. Even if she survived the chances of them remaining together are close to zero. There is simply too much damage. Not once had Kira ever stated that he wanted to tell Fllay he loved her. Just that he was sorry. NO Fllay is not a "one true love", she's a "someone important I need to protect" to Kira which is a HUGE difference.

You have no proof against it nor will you provide any that is"irrefutable" against it either.

Kira refused to get with Lacus in SEED and gave up living when Flay died whom he tried to save above all else. He managed to get his head back in the game to defeat Rau and wanted to die than but managed to live despite that.

Kira never kisses, hugs, or does anything romantic with Lacus until Destiny is over. Hell he's never even once shown even being affectionate with her throughout SEED(Such as how he rejected her near the end of SEED as he still wanted Flay back) and didn't even kiss her in Destiny.

Kira refused to share the same bed as Lacus, they had separate beds.

Kira is still depressed over failing to save Flay by the time Destiny starts and Lacus is powerless to end his pain as she knows she cannot compete with Kira's first and true love as well as the fact that you cannot beat a dead lover in someone's heart.

Kira loved Flay and had she lived he would NEVER have gotten with Lacus as he had already picked Flay before the final battle in SEED over Lacus. Before the final battle proves this beyond ANY reasonable doubt as when Lacus attempted to kiss him he rejected her as he still planned to save and get with Flay again. Lacus is literally the girl Kira ends up settling with as Kira NEVER gets to resolve his feelings with Flay as she dies and it leaves Kira as an empty shell at the start of Destiny.

None of this is up to dispute, that's literally what happened. As long as Flay lived Lacus NEVER had a chance with Kira who still gunned for her until her death and was depressed over her loss for YEARS. Hence why he was depressed, emotionless, and cold with Lacus at the start of Destiny as he wasn't able to move on from his first and true love Flay.

Thus for Lacus to become Kira's lover Flay was doomed to die and to turn Kira into his depressed self at the start of Destiny due to his love he still has for a dead Flay and the guilt he has for hurting her and not saving her.