2008-09-10, 12:53 | Link #1481 |
Once and Current Subber
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Sigh...
It's asinine to think that you can't take animation quality into account. Be honest - the Strikers animation had severe problems in a few scenes with basic human anatomy, much less precise ranging. But we're not assuming that Teana can transform into some kind of MOK-KOS because of that. Even though we SAW IT, that sort of scene can be safely filtered out as "just bad animation". Likewise, there's nothing in any Nanoha series that makes me think that the artists were composing their layouts with a calculator and a reference sheet. It's not sufficiently internally consistent for that. It's good to attempt to tease information out of limited observations, but you can't transcend the problems of the media thereby - and one of the problems with Japanese animation is that it plays extraordinarily fast and loose with concepts of time and distance. |
2008-09-10, 19:07 | Link #1482 |
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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It is a fundamental principle of anime, as with all primarily visual media, that information is visual. So unless you are telling me that the artists have no sense of perspective, when they for example, portray something as a dot in the sky, they are telling us it is far away, and by extension the distance can be measured.
SoD does recognize limitation of source. For all that, it will still not assume author's intent and dismiss scenes that don't happen to meet requirements. |
2008-09-10, 19:31 | Link #1483 |
Once and Current Subber
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Right, but suspension of disbelief -does not operate with a calculator-. It doesn't count frames. It's merely "is the viewer of this scene inclined to accept that this is internally consistent with the rest of the show"?
And yes, suspension of disbelief is inherently tied up in the genre. For example, what about the staple of the magical girl genre, the transformation scene? In any kind of -ordinary- thinking, of course, sitting there having your clothing removed and redone for 90 seconds while the enemy is sitting there tapping his watch and fuming is silly. Are we supposed to believe that Vita is really going to sit there while Nanoha arms herself? In a word, -yes-, because -we are watching magical girl anime-. It's part of the trope. The show even has fun with the trope in that Nanoha can tell the transformation sequence to bugger off if she wants to... but they still do it a few times, because -that's the trope-. So yes, in many ways, I'm specifically saying "as anime, it's quite likely that analyzing Nanoha for its scientific dimensions will fail, and largely miss the point." The show doesn't need to make sure that Vita-in-the-distance is three pixels tall rather than five in order to get people to believe "hey, Vita's far away". It doesn't need to have all attacks run in real-time (in fact, it pretty explicitly doesn't do that). Characters can pause and chat in places where it's quite implausible that they would pause, or at any rate they can say a line while swinging their weapon in such a way where in real life, the line would take much longer to say than the stroke. So long as Nanoha's not trying to declaim War and Peace in the middle of one of her incantations, we can believe that she can say a few words in there and it doesn't break up the pace of the action. So long as the characters' sizes are more or less constant relative to each other, we're not going to fume about exact positioning and angles of deflection and the like. And that's just taking the intentional stuff into effect - we're also prepared to see some scenes that are just "oops" because the budget wasn't that big. Heck, suspension of disbelief is useful in non-scientific ways, too. We've discussed that Nanoha, by objective standards, is not that great of an officer, Hayate's worse, and the TSAB as a whole is less competent than the average third-world military. But in the context of the show, Nanoha is lauded as being really freaking good at her job as an officer (and not just at busting heads). It requires a suspension of disbelief to say "well, okay, Nanoha's skilled in the context of the show, but the writers are non-military fuggheads writing a war story". But anime isn't film. You can't say "it's in the picture and thus represents a true image of what actually happened". Quite often, a scene will be redone (in the next episode or after a commercial break) and entirely different events will occur - character positioning will change, poses will be different, different dialogue might be spoken, what have you - but the viewer is meant to understand that the two scenes are in fact the same scene. And in the same vein, you can't count frames and put a protractor up to the screen and claim you've discovered the vital statistics of Nanoha attacks. |
2008-09-11, 00:40 | Link #1484 | |||||||
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Real SoD will have involved you going "Ahh, it might actually have happened that way ... in that universe ... this says something about the people there ..." Quote:
But that's the same ratio as 3:5. So why does one count and the other doesn't. Quote:
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2008-09-11, 01:19 | Link #1485 | ||
Blazing General
Join Date: May 2006
Location: CA
Age: 37
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Similarly, I have calculated that all Nanoha projectile attacks have a range of several inches and velocities of at best a few inches per second based on how far and fast they moved across my screen. Quote:
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Last edited by Kikaifan; 2008-09-11 at 01:41. |
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2008-09-11, 01:35 | Link #1486 |
Once and Current Subber
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Ark, you miss the point in amazing and flagrant fashion.
I'm -not- failing to suspend disbelief on those points. I enjoy the show! I have no problem with suspending disbelief. I'm merely pointing out that these are various things for which I am suspending disbelief. I'm totally okay with suspending disbelief in these cases. When you insist on a rationalization for these things, that's a failure to suspend disbelief. Am I trying to find a reason that Vita, not exactly the most patient lil' Belkan ever to exist, would sit around while Nanoha got changed? Nope. I don't demand that it be explained comprehensively. I'm suspending my disbelief, which would normally have Vita smile and pound the hell out of a defenseless and unclothed Nanoha or something similar. I don't need to form some sort of reason why in bizarro-Nanoha world, people don't take advantage of surprise attacks during transformation sequences. I just shrug, say "lol, magical girl shows", and continue to enjoy the show. Same diff for a lot of the fight scene stuff. Not everything -does- act consistently, some characters have plot armor, some don't, some things don't act perfectly consistently. You can have some fun trying to rationalize them, but at the end of the day, you shrug and say "lol, magical girl anime" and keep watching. Same thing with the Nanoha-in-the-military issues. I've tapped out more than one post trying to figure out the weird thought processes in the TSAB, as a fun exercise, but only for the contexts of those discussions. Objectively, I know that there's no way to reconcile Nanoha's behavior with Nanoha's reputation with what I know about military affairs, so I shrug, say "lol, magical girl anime", and keep watching. ;p |
2008-09-11, 02:31 | Link #1487 | ||
I'm Back
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Land of Lincoln
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Anyway when I watch a show (such as Nanoha), I saw it's best to just sit back and enjoy it... and not think too much about the physics involved, as per the above link.
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2008-09-11, 03:31 | Link #1488 | ||||
Adeptus Animus
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Age: 36
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For example, an animator is animating a gunfight. The hero is pinned and there are bullets flying all around him. What does the animator do? Well, he might decide to show the bullets flying around the hero, to emphasize that the hero is in danger and there are bullets flying all around him. In doing this he puts the hero in a bigger danger, because the audience can now see just how close the bullets are flying past his body. However, this also slows down the bullets to a point where they can be clocked, and clocking them will reveal that they are moving way to slow to be real bullets. Does this change that it still is a bullet? No, but trying to clock it doesn't yield the same scientific results. Why? Because the animator chose to ignore physics and instead made the scene look cool. Quote:
Wait, is that the idea you have of SoD? Oh... man... that explains a lot. Ark, by stripping away the abillity to appeal to author's intent and try to explain everything scientifically rather then use the terms the author provides us, in other words, by refusing to believe the terminology of the source, you already fail to suspend disbelief. Suspension of Disbelief is for example simply accepting that spaceships make awesome sounds in space, or that lasers sound really awesome (the passage of light tends to be rather quiet) that is suspension of disbelief. Applying Suspension of Disbelief to analysis can't possibly mean you strip away any and all idea that this is fiction, in doing so you'd create a major case of contradictio in termus. Applying Suspension of Disbelief to analysis means you explain what is asked using the terminology of the source. To stay on the subject at hand, if someone asks 'how come the cast can survive getting thrown through buildings?' the SoD analysis answer would be 'because they are wearing Barrier Jackets.' Does it make sense according to physics? No. Why do we provide the answer? Because it is the answer the source material gives us. That is SoD analysis, what you are doing is completely refusing to will SoD and instead explain everything scientifically. Quote:
Last edited by Keroko; 2008-09-11 at 05:15. |
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2008-09-11, 05:57 | Link #1489 | |||||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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2) Why do you even care? If you believe that what the animator draws is based on whatever is cool to them, and has no relevance to the MGLN reality, then who cares whether they are going to draw them fast or slow? Quote:
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In which case, you clearly failed to suspend disbelief. You refused to believe the visuals, simply because the depicted projectiles failed to conform with your schema of bullets! Quote:
What I see is a Suspension of Rational Thought in face of Disbelief. Further, the source material clearly depicts a world where physics do apply. Quote:
That aside, the point is the worthlessness of any qualitative statement with quantification of its magnitude. The AB will keep her safe. Against what? 10km/h relative speed? 20km/h? 200km/h? Mach 20? What about angle of impact? Will it make a Is there any difference if she hits grass instead of concrete? How much? If she flies into a jagged rock, will that make a difference? And how safe? Complete noninjury? Mild ones you can walk away from? Broken bones? Just not quite dead? Do you see the need for quantification? |
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2008-09-11, 06:31 | Link #1491 | ||||||
Adeptus Animus
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Age: 36
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I suspend my disbelief. Quote:
As for the analysis that has taken place, it goes something along the lines of this: Observation: Member of the cast gets smashed through wall. Query: How did the member of the cast survive that? Analysis: Member of the cast is wearing a Barrier Jacket, a magical form of armor. Source material explains that Barrier Jackets generate Barriers and Fields which provide protection. Conclusion: Barrier Jacket protected member of the cast. Now, the difference between scientific analysis, which is what you're doing, and SoD analysis is that once you found out what kept the member of the cast safe, you don't start to wonder how it managed to do so in the face of physics. "A magical clothing that generates magical barriers? Okay, thanks for explaining." That's what SoD analysis is. Quote:
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2008-09-11, 07:21 | Link #1492 | |||||||||||
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Then why do you only accept that the Guy is certainly under a lot of fire, but not what the scene actually showed, which is that the guy is under a lot of fire from slow-moving projectiles? Why Do You Pretend the Last Detail Did Not Exist? Quote:
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According to available text sources, which look like they are translated from a person in the universe, Barrier Jackets generate Barriers and Fields that provide an unquantified level of protection. Quote:
Conclusion: Barrier Jacket is almost certainly not what protected Cast Member. Quote:
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In a literary, author's intent sense, no matter how hard the guy tries, he's human, raised in a world with our laws. His ability to imagine something vastly different is sorely limited. For example, he can mumble about ten dimensional space, but as he draws it or describes it, it'll start looking a lot like our 3-dimensional, because it is simply impossible for him to really imagine what it is like in ten-dimensional space. Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-09-11 at 07:56. |
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2008-09-11, 07:37 | Link #1493 | |
Adeptus Animus
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In this case that means accepting that the bullets are supposed to be moving at the speeds of normal bullets, even if they don't stand up to calculations. Just look at the words: Suspension of Disbelief. I suspend my disbelief that bullets aren't supposed to move that slow. Why do I pretend the last detail did not exist? Because, Ark, that is what Suspension of Disbelief is. |
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2008-09-11, 08:06 | Link #1494 | |||
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This case is actually more asinine than normal because we know there are a number of ways that Slow-Mode is explicitly portrayed. |
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2008-09-11, 08:13 | Link #1495 |
Truth Martyr
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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The Dimensional Fleet Zipang: when ASROC is fired in Episode 2, when Harpoon is fired in Episode 13 and when Sea Sparrows are fired in Episode 14, all missiles are shown exiting their VLS and launch tubes at slower speeds than real life. If they were really launched at those speeds, they would stall and crash back on the ship. How do you explain that?
Macross Frontier, Episode 14. Alto flies in space. And his VF-25 has vapor trails. Now, when we saw vapor trails in Episode 13, that was acceptable, because vapour trails do form on aircraft going at high speed, particularly at high altitude. However, these vapour trails were in space and there was nothing at all to explain how that happened. Also, the VF-25 uses a gatling gunpod that fires kinetic slugs; can you explain to me why the tracers are blue, what could cause blue tracers, and whether tracers are even possible in the vacuum of space. Incidentally, ark hasn't replied to comar. Comar unworthy of your attention, perhaps? </jk> Probably busy with work and stuff, weren't you...(EDIT: lol ninjapost, nvm) Actually this post has little purpose as relates to Nanoha, I just want to see how SoD applies to anime other than Nanoha. Mind you people who watch Macross Frontier tend to turn their minds and analysis off because Macross is a series that runs on explosions, power of music, Rule of Cool, and awesome. As for suspension of disbelief in a game context: if you do not suspend disbelief, you will be unable to accept the Blackhawk that picks up the SAS team at the end of Mission 1, Chapter 1, of Call of Duty 4, which is flown by an american-sounding pilot, is painted in USAF colors, carries RAF markings, and the pilots are wearing Russian Spetsnaz uniforms and hats.
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2008-09-11, 08:20 | Link #1496 | |||||||||||||
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2) I have every confidence the barrier will activate. However, Teana never mentioned how effective it was going to be, or its limits. See my answer to Keroko - without quantification, a quality only statement has no references. Quote:
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Keroko gives a good example of what's a definite fail with his Bullet example. Note how he just pretends the bullet's velocity was never on the screen. Of course it was. But he insists in his opinion it isn't the author's intent, and that's that for a literary type. You can see how convenient it is to invalidate anything that does not meet your desires that way. A SoDer does not have that freedom. No matter what, he must somehow deal with the fact that the scene showed this. If he invalidates it, he must have very good reasons (contradiction versus a lot of other footage, for example). Even then, it'll be a hole in his theory and he knows it. This kind of discipline helps objectivity. Quote:
However, these are different in that I don't discuss them. I believe that a casual attitude to making your mental model of worlds is OK ... unless you start to extrapolate. If you discuss things like "So how far can the protagonist in Anime X shoot" or write FanFic on Anime Y, you must make an effort to make an accurate mental model of what's going on. And that's where all the Analysis comes in. If nothing else, it'll help you greatly when someone challenges your answer. Let's face it, most FanFic writers won't like being told that their depiction of Canon Character X has no resemblance to his real personality, or maybe that the combat depicted had no resemblance to how combat is handled in the series. How to avoid such problems, or at least to change the parameters from a position of knowledge? Analysis. Disciplined SoD analysis - eat the veggies too. Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-09-11 at 09:28. Reason: Addition of Kikaifan answer |
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2008-09-11, 12:02 | Link #1497 | |
NERV Personnel
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2008-09-11, 12:25 | Link #1499 |
NERV Personnel
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Oh yea. That would hurt, huh? I remember watching the making of Kamen Rider: The First extra where a guard was kicked by Hopper 1 through a glass plane. They had to rig it to shatter just before he hit to guarantee it would shatter and avoid excessive injury to the stuntman. Even then they had paramedics standing by because it was to be one of the more dangerous stunts in the film. With all the precautions the stuntman still received numerous lacerations from the glass shards though thankfully nothing serious.
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2008-09-11, 12:50 | Link #1500 |
Once and Current Subber
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Ark, lemme put it this way.
I've been in situations where I've formed elaborate theories as to what was going on in a show, parsing the dialogue and the observed phenomena really closely. Sometimes the events were such that I was able to form multiple theories. In at least one case, it was such that certain pieces of dialogue would need to come out subtly differently depending on which of the various interpretations was the one the authors had in mind. Because of the situation, that is, that I was getting paid to do this, I actually had the opportunity to forward both interpretations to the writers of the show, and actually ask them "so which one is more correct?" I got back "durrrr... it looked cool." (Name of the series withheld to protect the guilty, heh.) So part of that's just me being jaded. I've worked on lots of shows that just didn't have a lot of script consistency, where the plot holes were big enough to drive trucks through. I've worked on other shows that looked like they were pretty well constructed, but weren't; you could rationalize something coherent pretty easily, but it wasn't what the authors had in mind when they were putting together the show. I worked on Eva TWICE, about which I'm sure I need say nothing further. So to a certain degree, I'm completely primed and ready to say "okay, we've reached the limit of successful interpretation on this script." Nanoha hit that particular limit before Strikers rolled around, and Strikers never really had a good interpretation that you could reconcile with "reality" and with the content of the show. But that's okay! I enjoyed the hell out of Nanoha and A's, and I still had a good time with Strikers. I've got Rein and Subaru figures on the desk here, even Mom likes where I have Nanoha perched on the mantle (ironically, pointing RH at an old map of the world...) I have no idea where Vita and Signum and Hayate will go when they arrive, but I'm sure I'll find somewhere. Hell, if you saw the size of the discount I gave for Nanoha subtitles... now there's the love, man. ;p When you need to rationalize things instead of accept 'em as inconsistent, that's not suspending disbelief - you're specifically looking for a way to believe it. That's not always correct, especially in anime, where much is stylized. The "slow bullet" example is a good one. Slowing down projectiles so that you can "see" them, so that the viewer understands that there's lead flying there, is a good visual shorthand. The fact that real bullets are faster is not intended to signal that these are somehow "slow bullets". No, they're normal bullets, it's just that your viewpoint is not that of a stop-motion camera, but a dramatic observer... |
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