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View Poll Results: Ore no Imouto - Episode 7 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 25 | 23.58% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 33 | 31.13% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 19 | 17.92% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 17 | 16.04% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 5 | 4.72% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 3 | 2.83% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 1 | 0.94% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 1 | 0.94% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 0 | 0% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 2 | 1.89% | |
Voters: 106. You may not vote on this poll |
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2010-11-16, 12:41 | Link #141 | |
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 41
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I don't think, for whatever reason, certain people can see/appreciate what the story is trying to pitch as Kirino's "cute side" when it comes to her relationship with Kyousuke. It's the typical tsundere tension between "honesty" and "dishonesty". The thing that Kyousuke realized by the end of episode 3 (and in many episodes since) is that there actually is something else beneath her brusque and bossy exterior, and every once in a while she peels back her mask just enough to reveal it to him. In the second half of this episode, there were at least two such moments: when she talked about receiving a present from the person she loved, and when she was shown wearing the earrings her brother bought for her. That's the part of Kirino that Kyousuke finds cute (ref: episode 3, show title, etc.), and so he can't help but go along with her antics. In both of those scenes, no matter how tense and annoyed he was before, we see him visibly ease up. Despite it all, he really does care for her; he shrugs it all off as "that's just Kirino being Kirino". And as third-party observers, that same sort of "shrugging it off" is something some viewers don't seem able to do, rightly or wrongly. (I think the show is also pitching Kirino's dishonest side as cute... but I don't expect people who don't already see things that way to change their views on that point. That may take years of tsundere heroine eroge/anime/manga training. ) As I explained to someone recently, I think the appeal in a tsundere heroine is in what you notice beneath the surface (which will eventually rise to the surface over the course of the story), so people who are focused on Kirino's bitchiness re: Kyousuke aren't seeing her in exactly the same way he does. Those brief moments where her true feelings are revealed aren't enough, in their minds, to make up for it. In some cases because they feel Kyousuke has "better options".
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2010-11-16, 12:54 | Link #142 |
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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My opinion is that I don't think there's actually meant to be any romantic hints between Kirino and Kyousuke. I think the writers deliberately set up hints that WOULD be taken as hints in any other anime and then have the characters shoot them down as if the writer is saying "Can't we have a story about a relationship between an older brother and his little sister WITHOUT it leading to incest?"
Hence why the writers even gave Kyousuke's dad a typical Tsundere line. I think it's trying to mock such hints, rather than play them straight.
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2010-11-16, 13:19 | Link #144 | |
Home of Silent Prayer
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Yeah, it's as you said. I haven't watch anime that long but even I understand that what's beneath the surface is the main appeal of tsundere, but like you said the brief moments of where her true feelings are revealed aren't enough in my mind to make up for it. What's more, the rough exterior are way too rough that it puts me off. Simply, there's just too much tsun and not enough dere, although as another poster said this may be partly the fault of the adaptation and the percentage are not so high in the original LN. For instance, in this season there's also Yakumo and Zakuro (which coincidentally has their name on their three word anime title) but while both are cold and can speak brashly about their partner, somehow I find them more tolerable because the ratio isn't as skewed as here. While I agree that Kyousuke may has "better options", that's not my greatest problem with him. As you said, Kyousuke thinks that the real cute moment is worth it and the brash outer side is just Kirino being Kirino. While for me it's not, and while I understand that's who she is doesn't mean she can't change and improve her behavior instead of having her whims catered to all the time. I think my mistake is that I identify with Kyousuke too much, and got annoyed when he doesn't do as I would like him to do. So yeah, I guess in order to enjoy future episodes more I guess I shouldn't do that and try to be more patient with Kirino, keeping my complaints to a minimal, while hoping that the background of why she's so hostile will be explained or she'll develop her character a bit so that I can find her more tolerable.
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2010-11-16, 13:51 | Link #145 | ||
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 41
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In a way, I would say that Kyousuke and Kirino are very similar. They both run their mouths and act all hostile with each other (Kirino by acting all bossy/selfish, and Kyousuke by acting all annoyed) but at the end of the day they are growing a certain understanding about and appreciation for each other. And I suspect that is what the anime is trying to portray about their relationship more than anything else; this is a story about "love", regardless of the exact "classification" of that love when the curtain falls. Quote:
(Incidentally, all of these "words of wisdom" (if you can call it that) brought to you by D.C.S.S. Anyone who was there at the time will instantly know why... )
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2010-11-16, 14:15 | Link #147 |
Twintails are wintails!
Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 43
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There's no proof that he didn't hate her. There's one hint though that he did, or if not hate, at least disliked her, but as it's right in front of everyone's eyes, it's easily ignored: the series title. "My little sister can't be this cute." This strongly suggests that he never liked her before, but now to his great surprise he's finding out she's actually quite cute.
Spoiler for rest of reply:
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2010-11-16, 14:16 | Link #148 | |
Home of Silent Prayer
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2010-11-16, 16:06 | Link #150 | |||||
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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In this kind of story when there is a gap between two siblings you expect to be able to sympathize with both of them. The question is why is there a gap? Why did they both create such a gap in the first place? This reason has not been given yet, and as far as the viewer can tell at the moment, the sister is just being a complete bitch. If you can't sympathize with Kirino at all, why does the viewer feel compelled to watch Kyousuke try to broach the gap between the two siblings? Sorry, I find this to be a fault that has nothing to do with where the story is going. We all know the story is going towards salvaging their relationship (Whether that ends in the despicable wincest is another story). Quote:
Only Kyousuke has been the one seen to have developments of sibling love for her sister, though at this point, it seems like a one sided relationship. Quote:
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The fascination with incest in the Otaku fanbase is a little out of control. Sure, I don't care if there's a show here and there that explores this "forbidden love," but it seems to be more normal in anime to see incestual relationships than just sibling bonds. I find this laughable to say the least. Quote:
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2010-11-16, 16:17 | Link #152 |
Onee!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Auckland, NZ
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Well as relentlessflame and even a certain character in this very ep has pointed out, there's no right or wrong to a work of creativity, only the level of enjoyment you can obtain from it. For all you who can't emphasis with Kirino, i do believe you're missing one of the main points of the series; the development of the relationship between Kirino and Kyousuke. The entire idea is that their level starts off basically at zero then works up from there. If she was already going all dere over him then that would just turn her into another Shana or Louis, which IMO would make her less endearing- just like how Manami is boring to me because she's normal, a "normal" tsundere is boring because she's predictable. In this sense Kirino shares some of the characteristics of the defrosting ice queen; it is only through development that you see more of her soft side rather than it being in sight from the beginning. Plus, she's cute! <3 *loses capacity for further logical reasoning*
edit: wow, I wait for 2 minutes to post and a huge wall of text suddenly appears x_x comrades I leave it to you to continue the fight!
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2010-11-16, 16:28 | Link #153 | |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
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Kirino was shown as the bratty, spoiled and bossy little sister, and that was accepted. However, the point you are making is exactly what nearly everyone expected, but a good chunk is -not- satisfied: that there is basically -no-development-at-all-, period. For all it is worth, Kirino only thanked Kyousuke once, and we had a "cryptic" scene with her wearing the earrings Kyousuke bought for her because he was forced to. Now, I would love to believe there was a development here, but if you compare Episode 1 with the current state of the story, Kirino just didn't change a single bit: she is forcing Kyousuke to be her life councellor, bidding boy and verbal abuse sandbag. Now, I said we were "okay" with this first, but the problem is that the dynamics between them are just stagnant. Triple_R explained quite well that Kirino can be entertaining considering the antics here and there, but when the series shift on the serious stuff between the siblings, it just doesn't tick that well (otherwise, you wouldn't have that sizable part of the fanbase being annoyed by her). To make things worse, we still don't have any backstory that explains a "core" reason for that wrecked relationship, and we are still shoved by the same dynamic without much reference at hand. For all it is worth, again: it isn't about having a bloody fluffy little sister AT ALL. After the first episode, there was no mistake what kind of character Kirino is. However, the problem is after the seventh episode, she is just the very same character. And no, there is no need for something like "it isn't like I did that for you!!", but suble actions and gratitude is enough without turning her into a running mill tsundere a la JC staff adaptations. Undertaker has hinted several times that Kirino is actually "more likable" in the LN. I would love to believe that. Unfortunately, with the presentation of the anime as of now, there is little material to confirm that thought in the said adaptation. Now I realize some people would love that topic to be dropped, but it would be a lifesaver if the discussion was understood: there isn't any "naysaying" for the hell of it, and there was no claim for "oh, I want a moe imouto in that series". You (general sense) are missing the point totally, despite calling people "missing the point of OreImo".
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2010-11-16, 16:48 | Link #155 | |||
On a mission
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Annoying characters don't have to be bad characters, but if their growth as a character hasn't really gone anywhere, then that makes the show more boring. I mean surely, anyone could extrapolate why Kiirino acts the way she is. However, you can't just leave it all up to the audience to fill in the blanks. It can be considered a slightly unfair assessment since it's not over yet, but at the current pace we're going at, it will seem uneven at best and unsatisfying at worst. Quote:
However, trying to take that point and stretch it into something more meaningful is hard that I really can't take these increasingly "guilt trip" tests of love to mean the relationship is mutual. Yes, I accept there's a growing bond between the two sparked by this hobby, but the show's simply been too opaque about the underlying details and the situations just too silly and not reflecting well on Kiirino. Personally, I've always believed that any form of entertainment needs credibility with the audience. They can't just take everything for granted and ask for them to accept every premise and events without properly going into the details and nuances. Well they can, but it'll lead to their point being muffled. The more credit you build up with the audience, the more things you can do to stretch the suspension of belief. Quote:
Of course the problem with whatever-dere is that if they grow and develop as a character, then the original gag would disappear... and that could be risky as there's no easy jokes to fall back on. I'd say many a writer is afraid of doing that since that would be an evolved character... and requires effort. It's fortunate that I'm not an avid shipper, since I don't really care for any of the choices, really, at this point. But at least that also allows me to enjoy the show. I think people aren't complaining because the show is bad, but because it's good.
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2010-11-16, 17:18 | Link #156 | |||
Onee!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Auckland, NZ
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Ep1- Kyousuke gets asked for life counselling. Hooray. Maybe they don't hate each other? Ep2- Kirino takes his advice, which is a step above ignoring him. Maybe. It's also shown she's starting to rely on him, ie *trust* him. Ep3- First heartfelt discussion they have. And as you said, Kirino actually thanks him. Hooray! Ep4- Well i guess this ep doesn't focus on the whole KiriKyou thing very much. Ep5- By this point Kirino is actually able to open her heart to Kyousuke. He on his part is able to understand and empathise. No difference yet? Ep6- Despite the Manami-centricness you can see that Kirino actually *cares* that Kyousuke isn't home. Hell, she might even miss him. Ep7- Alright, "gift from the one you love"? "overnight stay in a hotel?" How is this NOT development from them NOT TALKING TO EACH OTHER? Quote:
And since when has Kirino actually made Kyousuke do anything really? Sure she threw the eroge at him, but Kyousuke had every opportunity to refuse. You also saw his reaction at having finished his first eroge, as well as his ability to expound on it reasonable competently. I do believe his entering this world wasn't so much Kirino's fault (....alright fine it was) but rather that he himself enjoys it and wants to stay. As for verbal abuse... since when has Kyousuke not given as good as he's got? Everytime Kirino mouthes off at him he snaps right back. The only difference is the level of effect. This ep Kyousuke brushed Kirino's words right off, but you saw how affected Kirino was by Kyousuke's accusations and threats of abandonment. To me that was more cruel than crude jokes about being run over which you simply can't take seriously. Kyousuke's words on the other hand were hurtful. Quote:
I realise that I may come off as pretty damn biased because I just love Kirino that much, but there you go.
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2010-11-16, 17:45 | Link #158 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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Amen, Seitsuki...
I mean, I watch shows like these for the characters and relationships, but I'm amazed how blatant developments seem to have to be to please folks who are less concentrated on these issues. I really do like how gradual and subtle the developments are, alot of care and detail has been put into the script and animation. But I guess if you really can't pick them up, the enjoyment _will_ be significantly lessened. |
2010-11-16, 18:28 | Link #159 | |
にこにこにー
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: 国立音ノ木坂学院
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Development? What you expect? Eroge like development where Kyousuke would have tons of ecchi scene with Kirino, then on way to somewhere got his head saw off by Ayase? |
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2010-11-16, 18:29 | Link #160 |
Senior Member
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While I wrote that much of this show reminds me of The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, I also feel that it's the opposite of that anime in one key way.
My feeling with Haruhi's anime (and the novel source material itself) is that the key characters in them develop nicely and solidly over time, but most of the SOS Brigade relationship dynamics develop at a snail pace, if at all (Yuki, and her relationships with Haruhi and Kyon, being a key exception here). In other words, while there is a nuanced but definite change in both Haruhi and Kyon, I don't get a sense that this is causing them to grow closer together (as it arguably should). With Ore no Imouto (though I admit I haven't read the source material for this) I get the sense that numerous relationship dynamics are developing quite nicely, actually, but the characters themselves feel very static. In other words, I certainly do see where Kyousuke and Kirino are becoming much closer to each other, and I also see good relationship development between Kyousuke and almost every other central character in this anime. In fairness, that's very impressive for seven episodes in. However, Kirino doesn't strike me as inherently nicer or friendlier or even just more mellowed out than she was at episode one. So, actually, that does beg the question of "Why is Kyousuke going above and beyond for her?". Unless the guy is a simple masochist, it's becoming hard to fathom why he's doing this. If Kirino was becoming a bit nicer, and showing more of a softer side, I could get it. Or if we as the audience was let in on some past event where Kyousuke horribly wronged his sister, we'd understand his guilt and desire to make up for it. But as is, I am finding it hard to understand why Kyousuke is sacrificing so much for his sister. And, frankly, I somewhat disagree (just like Kyousuke seemed to ) with the argument of "there's no right or wrong to a work of creativity". There is such a thing as bad execution in a work of creativity, and there's enough complaints here from some pretty flexible anime fans that I personally think that the execution could probably be better. Now, with that being said, some of this is a matter of taste. Some of us like tsunderes. Some of us don't. Some of us cheer on what is being called "wincest". Some of us dislike incest. That's going to bear pretty heavily on how much people enjoy this anime, or its developments or themes, and I think that it would be beneficial if all sides could accept this. I, for one, can certainly see why somebody who loves tsunderes and "wincest" would absolutely love this anime, and Kirino. This is precisely right up their ally. But unless you're dere for tsunderes, and criticisms of "wincest" makes you tsun, then this anime can leave you wanting. I will say this though... everything Kirino has done, and said; all of it; makes perfect sense and is understandable on her part... if she is romantically interested in her brother. In an odd sort of way, the best result for her character would be for her to be established has having such feelings for her brother. Because then everything this anime is doing fits nice and tidy, and the more questionable things Kirino does or says makes sense. Even though I'm not a fan of "wincest", I now kind of hope that the anime goes that way (at least as it pertains to Kirino being established as having such feelings). Because otherwise Kirino's character is simply a mess, imo. This is not how a sister would try to build a closer platonic bond with her brother. A sister is not this tsundere towards a brother that she simply has normal familial affection for. But it's understandable that a sister might act this way towards her brother if she has romantic feelings for him... That still leaves us with the question of why Kyousuke is going all out for her, though. And unlike Kirino, I'm really not getting much of any sense of incestuous desire on his part.
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