One Piece - Chapter 655 [manga]

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by White Silver King

Didn't Robin refuse the meeting with Dragon?

No, she refused at first, but after she got Luffy's "meet in 2 years message" she chose to go with the revolutionaries to meet with dragon in hopes that his guidance might help her grow stronger

Originally Posted by Jouten

Zoro seems to be able to control the curse. I can picture someone giving him a higher grade Kitetsu because he will be impressed by Zoro weilding a Kitetsu and still being alive. Maybe we'll even see Zoro fight with all three Kitetsu swords? (Though that doesn't really make munch sense). But I'm still confused why Zoro's Yubashiri broke instead of Kitetsu. Yubashiri was the better sword...

Because Yubashiri's ONLY real notable quality was that its relatively high grade. There are higher grade swords out there and therefore swords that are more notable. Kitetsu however is cursed, it is a sword that is destined to lead its owners to a grisly fate. Even the highest grade swords do not hold that quality; as such that cursed status is what makes it a more notable between the two...

I would also find it lame for Zoro to replace his current cursed sword for a sharper cursed sword... it would basically be telling the same story all over again.

[Jouten]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Because Yubashiri's ONLY real notable quality was that its relatively high grade. There are higher grade swords out there and therefore swords that are more notable. Kitetsu however is cursed, it is a sword that is destined to lead its owners to a grisly fate. Even the highest grade swords do not hold that quality; as such that cursed status is what makes it a more notable between the two...

I would also find it lame for Zoro to replace his current cursed sword for a sharper cursed sword... it would basically be telling the same story all over again.

Then maybe Zoro will meet a descendant of Kitetsu, or someone who knows his smithing who can reforge Zoro's Kitetsu? Because currently the Kitetsu is his weakest sword. Anyway that Kitetsu needs to be somehow replaced by a better sword with still having that vibe of the curse over Zoro (Or the mystery of the curse needs to be resolved and he'll get a new non-cursed sword).

Or does Zoro already have his final equipment?

[ronin myael]

Originally Posted by C.A.

You are right as well, it actually depends on which part of Japanese history does Oda want to reference the samurai.

The real traditional samurai must have a lord, which they pledge full allegiance to. Which is why samurai commit harakiri, ritual suicide by slicing the abdomens when they fail to obey their lords.

But over time samurai began to lose their lords from war, politics and also cultural upheaval, then the ronin started to appear. At this point we do not know exactly if Oda wants the samurai of Wano to be traditional samurai or ronin.

the ritual suicide is actually called oibara seppuku, it's just more popularly known as harakiri outside of japan. this practice is part of bushido. they are basically forced to do it because if they don't they will lose their honor.

anyways, when i said that oda placed hints about the samurai's existence in one piece, i meant that he included a bit of their history and culture just like he included elements from greek mythology, some arabic and egyptian influences and even mayan culture. oda includes myths, legends and historical facts and figures from around the world. he used zoro's character to show a bit of that samurai culture.

Zoro is gonna replace his Sandai Kitetsu, a totally lowtier sword, cursed or not.

It's unbalanced

He already wields 2 O Wazamono Grade Swords.

why should he replace sandai kitetsu? low grade or not, it's still one of the best looking swords and perhaps one of the fiercest ones he has ever owned. wado ichimonji may be an heirloom sword but it has no real history, save for its sentimental value having been owned by kuina. same with yubashiri. cursed swords are common in samurai lore. there are practically hundreds of legends about these swords. one of my japanese friends told me about a legendary cursed sword that killed its masters. it supposedly belonged to a bloodthirsty samurai who killed thousands during his lifetime. when he died, the sword took on his blood thirst and started killing its masters. i believe versions of this story were also used in manga and anime series. oda used sandai kitetsu to tell this part of the samurai lore. whether the sword is low grade or not, it doesn't matter. what matters is the history behind it. besides, i think sandai kitetsu suits zoro's personality quite well. i like the idea that only he can control this ruthless and volatile katana.

Originally Posted by Jouten

Then maybe Zoro will meet a descendant of Kitetsu, or someone who knows his smithing who can reforge Zoro's Kitetsu? Because currently the Kitetsu is his weakest sword. Anyway that Kitetsu needs to be somehow replaced by a better sword with still having that vibe of the curse over Zoro (Or the mystery of the curse needs to be resolved and he'll get a new non-cursed sword).

Or does Zoro already have his final equipment?

why do you think it's his weakest sword? because it's not as expensive as the others? the quality of the sword doesn't just depend on how it was made you know. the samurai believed that their swords were extension of themselves, that's why they used to name their swords. every sword is unique thus every sword has its own qualities and even personalities as the samurai believed. the effectiveness of a sword also depends on its wielder. in the hands of a skilled swordsman, an ordinary sword could be the most lethal weapon in the world. but a perfectly balanced and forged sword could be as deadly as a walking stick in the hands of an unskilled swordsman. zoro is a skilled swordsman, no doubt one of the most skilled swordsmen in the world of one piece. sandai kitetsu is no ordinary sword in my opinion. i think zoro has found his 3 swords. no need for replacement.

[Undertaker]

Originally Posted by ronin myael

why should he replace sandai kitetsu? low grade or not, it's still one of the best looking swords and perhaps one of the fiercest ones he has ever owned. wado ichimonji may be an heirloom sword but it has no real history, save for its sentimental value having been owned by kuina. same with yubashiri. cursed swords are common in samurai lore. there are practically hundreds of legends about these swords. one of my japanese friends told me about a legendary cursed sword that killed its masters. it supposedly belonged to a bloodthirsty samurai who killed thousands during his lifetime. when he died, the sword took on his blood thirst and started killing its masters. i believe versions of this story were also used in manga and anime series. oda used sandai kitetsu to tell this part of the samurai lore. whether the sword is low grade or not, it doesn't matter. what matters is the history behind it. besides, i think sandai kitetsu suits zoro's personality quite well. i like the idea that only he can control this ruthless and volatile katana.

Well, it's fairly certain that Wado Ichimonji would not be destroyed precisely due to sentimental value and it's symbolization of Zoro's dream and agreement with Kuina. Unless Oda is trying to make it a HUGE story point for Zoro I don't see that sword getting destroyed.

The most famous of cursed blade are Muramasa, blades made by Muramasa-clan of blacksmith. They have tendency where the owner of those Katana ends up injured or dead because of them.

The problem here, is that all named blade (meito) has it's own history. The story might not be curse related, but they have their own history that makes them identifiable to other. I mean come on, Shusui has history of be a dragon-slaying sword, I personally find that more impressive then a blood thirsty sword.

Originally Posted by ronin myael

why do you think it's his weakest sword? because it's not as expensive as the others? the quality of the sword doesn't just depend on how it was made you know. the samurai believed that their swords were extension of themselves, that's why they used to name their swords. every sword is unique thus every sword has its own qualities and even personalities as the samurai believed. the effectiveness of a sword also depends on its wielder. in the hands of a skilled swordsman, an ordinary sword could be the most lethal weapon in the world. but a perfectly balanced and forged sword could be as deadly as a walking stick in the hands of an unskilled swordsman. zoro is a skilled swordsman, no doubt one of the most skilled swordsmen in the world of one piece. sandai kitetsu is no ordinary sword in my opinion. i think zoro has found his 3 swords. no need for replacement.

Not that it's not expensive, it's because Oda says so. He grades the swords in OP. Mihawk's Yoru is one of the 12 - Saijo O Wazamono sword, highest grade within OP. Shodai Kitetsu (the first gen Kitetsu) is also of this grade.

Both Wado Ichimoji and Shusui (Zoro's current swords) belongs to the next grade, 21 - O Wazamono. Other that confirmed is the Nidai Kitetsu.

Yubashiri that was destroyed in EL belongs to the the third tier, 50 - Ryo Wazamono. Other confirmed are Yamaoroshi and Kashu, both owned by Tashigi when last mentioned.

Sandai Kitetsu is of the lowest grade of Meito, the Wazamono grade. This grade has so far has no number limitation, the other known sword in this grade is Shigure, sgain, owned by Tashigi.


Interesting note is that the Wazamono classification is also used in real live in Japan for Katana makers based on and text from 1805 that rated 228 blacksmith, past and present. The classification and the limitation are the same as Oda used with 12-21-50. The only difference is that in real live Wazamono have a list of 80, while Oda didn't specify that number in OP. And the real life listed other 65 blacksmith as Mixed due to the mixed qualities of their blades.

The list is composed by blade testers of the court so is very comprehensive list and it still serve as benchmark for newly made blades or katanas that are newly discovered. The only fault of the list is that some historical famous Katanas from 9th to 15th century were deemed too valuable for test and their makers are thus not in the official grading.

[marvelB]

Originally Posted by randomlex

There was some sort of experiment gone wrong, although I don't know how the dragon fits into all that - maybe he's just a mythical Zoan user?

Actually, taking into consideration what I said before about PH potentially being OP's Chernobyl..... maybe the dragon is actually a mutant?

[Undertaker]

Then, potentially there might be more dragons around...

Man, it would be funny is Luffy and co. got bitten by radioactive spider or exposed to gamma radiation....

[Rainbowman]

Originally Posted by Undertaker

Then, potentially there might be more dragons around...

Man, it would be funny is Luffy and co. got bitten by radioactive spider or exposed to gamma radiation....

Luffy, Chopper, Robin, and Brook already have powers so I don't see why Oda would make them have such situations. Of course I wouldn't mind having Nami exposed to gamma radiation (she'd make a great She-Hulk).

[ronin myael]

Originally Posted by Undertaker

Well, it's fairly certain that Wado Ichimonji would not be destroyed precisely due to sentimental value and it's symbolization of Zoro's dream and agreement with Kuina. Unless Oda is trying to make it a HUGE story point for Zoro I don't see that sword getting destroyed.

The most famous of cursed blade are Muramasa, blades made by Muramasa-clan of blacksmith. They have tendency where the owner of those Katana ends up injured or dead because of them.

The problem here, is that all named blade (meito) has it's own history. The story might not be curse related, but they have their own history that makes them identifiable to other. I mean come on, Shusui has history of be a dragon-slaying sword, I personally find that more impressive then a blood thirsty sword.

Not that it's not expensive, it's because Oda says so. He grades the swords in OP. Mihawk's Yoru is one of the 12 - Saijo O Wazamono sword, highest grade within OP. Shodai Kitetsu (the first gen Kitetsu) is also of this grade.

Both Wado Ichimoji and Shusui (Zoro's current swords) belongs to the next grade, 21 - O Wazamono. Other that confirmed is the Nidai Kitetsu.

Yubashiri that was destroyed in EL belongs to the the third tier, 50 - Ryo Wazamono. Other confirmed are Yamaoroshi and Kashu, both owned by Tashigi when last mentioned.

Sandai Kitetsu is of the lowest grade of Meito, the Wazamono grade. This grade has so far has no number limitation, the other known sword in this grade is Shigure, sgain, owned by Tashigi.


Interesting note is that the Wazamono classification is also used in real live in Japan for Katana makers based on and text from 1805 that rated 228 blacksmith, past and present. The classification and the limitation are the same as Oda used with 12-21-50. The only difference is that in real live Wazamono have a list of 80, while Oda didn't specify that number in OP. And the real life listed other 65 blacksmith as Mixed due to the mixed qualities of their blades.

The list is composed by blade testers of the court so is very comprehensive list and it still serve as benchmark for newly made blades or katanas that are newly discovered. The only fault of the list is that some historical famous Katanas from 9th to 15th century were deemed too valuable for test and their makers are thus not in the official grading.

yup. the muramasa swords are the most famous of these cursed blade stories. i think i've read/seen quite a few series that feature a cursed sword at some point. but low-tiered or not, i still think sandai kitetsu has a place in zoro's journey to becoming the greatest swordsman in the world and i am speaking strictly from a creative point of view. there's more drama to a sword that has a backstory than a sword that's simply classified of high grade. besides, among the existing swords in japan, mostly the ones with the greater history and fame are more expensive than the ones that were simply created by famous sword smiths, especially the ones that were owned by famous samurai. some of them carry the names their former masters gave them.

the reason i didn't mention shuushui is because i find it impressive as well. but not because of its quality rather because of its history. aside from the fact that it's a dragon slaying katana, it was owned by ryuuma, a legendary samurai! among zoro's swords, shuushui and sandai kitetsu intrigue me the most.

[Ami-chan]

New crew member right here. Has to be. PLEASE.

[marvelB]

^I dunno.... somehow, an island that may or may not be the site of a past nuclear disaster doesn't exactly scream "new crewmate"-material to me.


I do believe that it's pretty much guaranteed that the crew will gain their last two members in the NW, though. Maybe one of them will even be a native from the Wano country, now that we've started to learn more about the location.....

[Yuutsu]

If Jinbei has been invited to join the Strawhats, doesn't that mean there is really only one spot left on Luffy's ship?

Anyway, I'm now looking forward to seeing the Wano country and it's fearsome samurai! I'm genuinely curious to see what it takes to scare away the marines!

[bonsobon]

We don't know for sure that Jinbei really is going to join the Strawhats, so it still could be two spots up for grabs.

As for Wano country it does sound like an interesting place, but there's no guarantee the place will be visited. After all if the marines don't go there what makes anyone think that pirates can?

[Undertaker]

Originally Posted by marvelB

^I dunno.... somehow, an island that may or may not be the site of a past nuclear disaster doesn't exactly scream "new crewmate"-material to me.


I do believe that it's pretty much guaranteed that the crew will gain their last two members in the NW, though. Maybe one of them will even be a native from the Wano country, now that we've started to learn more about the location.....

The only thing I have problem with that is that the samurai would be in conflict with Zoro as far as character type. Even though Brook is a swordsman, he was really a different "class-type" compare to Zoro. Zoro, however, despise been called as such, is basically a Post-Sengoku Period samurai. Unless they you are talking about a character that always wears family/clan armor the character will share too much similarity with Zoro IMO.

Originally Posted by ronin myael

the reason i didn't mention shuushui is because i find it impressive as well. but not because of its quality rather because of its history. aside from the fact that it's a dragon slaying katana, it was owned by ryuuma, a legendary samurai! among zoro's swords, shuushui and sandai kitetsu intrigue me the most.

Agree, but the fact that there are two Kitetsu-s above it makes me think that those two other swords would eventually show up.

Beside, with the mention of Wano country and how Zoro is a samurai himself. I beginning to think that Zoro's master and Wado Ichimoji are both related to Wano Country. As I said, you don't become a well-known great sword without any history and in this case, Wado Ichimoji, is still a much better sword than Sandai Kitesu.

[golgo13]

Originally Posted by bonsobon

We don't know for sure that Jinbei really is going to join the Strawhats, so it still could be two spots up for grabs.

As for Wano country it does sound like an interesting place, but there's no guarantee the place will be visited. After all if the marines don't go there what makes anyone think that pirates can?

Pirates go anywhere they want thats a big difference between them and the marines and the rest of the masses.

[Undertaker]

Besides, Wano is not part of WG, which means that if Marine shows up, it can be considered an act of war and apparently Wano is strong enough country that WG is not willing to force their way against them.

[ronin myael]

Originally Posted by Undertaker

Agree, but the fact that there are two Kitetsu-s above it makes me think that those two other swords would eventually show up.

Beside, with the mention of Wano country and how Zoro is a samurai himself. I beginning to think that Zoro's master and Wado Ichimoji are both related to Wano Country. As I said, you don't become a well-known great sword without any history and in this case, Wado Ichimoji, is still a much better sword than Sandai Kitesu.

hmmm... as someone else said in this thread, zoro is not really a samurai. he never claimed to be one and nobody called him as such. but he was trained in a kenjutsu school and his master did seem like the samurai-type. perhaps his family is connected to wano, perhaps not.

meito are basically famous swords, their fame are usually related to the fame of their masters. the swords' fame don't only depend on their achievements but also on the ones who wielded them in life. it could be that kuina's family was a famous clan of swordsmen. but then again, every samurai clan had at least one meito, so it's not that special, well at least for me it doesn't seem so. during world war 2, several of these meito swords were confiscated from the japanese army. many of these swords are now lost. that's probably why the remaining meito in japan are so well-guarded and even deemed too priceless to sell. there are so few left. but unless oda reveals some great history behind wado ichimonji, it would remain as an heirloom sword that holds great sentimental value to zoro, nothing more.

[bonsobon]

Originally Posted by golgo13

Pirates go anywhere they want thats a big difference between them and the marines and the rest of the masses.

While that is generally true there is no guarantee that the people of Wano are welcoming to pirates and therefore it may be a no-go zone for them.

[Undertaker]

Originally Posted by ronin myael

hmmm... as someone else said in this thread, zoro is not really a samurai. he never claimed to be one and nobody called him as such. but he was trained in a kenjutsu school and his master did seem like the samurai-type. perhaps his family is connected to wano, perhaps not.

meito are basically famous swords, their fame are usually related to the fame of their masters. the swords' fame don't only depend on their achievements but also on the ones who wielded them in life. it could be that kuina's family was a famous clan of swordsmen. but then again, every samurai clan had at least one meito, so it's not that special, well at least for me it doesn't seem so. during world war 2, several of these meito swords were confiscated from the japanese army. many of these swords are now lost. that's probably why the remaining meito in japan are so well-guarded and even deemed too priceless to sell. there are so few left. but unless oda reveals some great history behind wado ichimonji, it would remain as an heirloom sword that holds great sentimental value to zoro, nothing more.

True, Zoro, strictly speaking isn't a samurai. But that is speaking more to the period in history rather than applying definition. Dojos only appears after the Sengoku period, in which the laws forbidden peasants to bare arms and those who do are of nobility and samurai classes. Dojo master themselves are samurais who lost their prestige during that period. The only difference in that periods is that only disciples who are related to the ruling class can carry real katana so by being able to carry a katana Zoro would be viewed as a samurai as far as real life view would go if we are bringing it into discussion.

The question here is that by introducing a Wano country with Samurai system. Oda is essentially telling us that there is an origin where katana and kenjutsu is from.

So unless the samurai in Wano are not using Katana and have drastically different mentality in fighting compare to the real world counterpart, Zoro's dojo must have some connection to it.

As for Wado Ichimonji, why is it hard for you to consider is as a great sword? I agree that meito doesn't mean much in real world, but meito that is classified does.

Wado Ichimonji is not just a meito as you said, it's a meito with a classification associated to it in which Sandai Kitesu was rated TWO classes below it in term of quality.

Oda rated as it amongst 21-O Wazamono, which means that even if it is the worse of its bunch , it is still viewed as the 33rd strongest sword in the OP world. On the other hand, Sadain Kitesu, at best, is rated 84.

Also, Wado Ichimonji has shown to be able to take a blow from Mihawk with his Yoru one of the 12 from Saijo O Wazamono Class, that enough is to show the quality of that sword.

If anything, Sandai Kitesu is just another random meito. It just happen to have a curse history link to it and even then, it was rated below its two previous generation. It says something, when there are three Kitesu in OP world and this is rated as the least of the three.

Whether or not the sword has special ability is beyond the point right now otherwise Funkfreed would be consider a quality sword as well.

I mean really, you have to go there, for me, Sandai Kitestu right now is just a third-rated curse sword and nothing more unless Oda reveals more.

[ronin myael]

Originally Posted by Undertaker

As for Wado Ichimonji, why is it hard for you to consider is as a great sword? I agree that meito doesn't mean much in real world, but meito that is classified does.

Wado Ichimonji is not just a meito as you said, it's a meito with a classification associated to it in which Sandai Kitesu was rated TWO classes below it in term of quality.

Oda rated as it amongst 21-O Wazamono, which means that even if it is the worse of its bunch , it is still viewed as the 33rd strongest sword in the OP world. On the other hand, Sadain Kitesu, at best, is rated 84.

Also, Wado Ichimonji has shown to be able to take a blow from Mihawk with his Yoru one of the 12 from Saijo O Wazamono Class, that enough is to show the quality of that sword.

If anything, Sandai Kitesu is just another random meito. It just happen to have a curse history link to it and even then, it was rated below its two previous generation. It says something, when there are three Kitesu in OP world and this is rated as the least of the three.

Whether or not the sword has special ability is beyond the point right now otherwise Funkfreed would be consider a quality sword as well.

I mean really, you have to go there, for me, Sandai Kitestu right now is just a third-rated curse sword and nothing more unless Oda reveals more.

i'm probably speaking with biases here since i loved the muramasa stories. muramasa's blades were graded low as well, none of them were considered meito (as far as i know of) and yet muramasa was a very skilled swordsmith and his swords were of high quality as well. the reason for this is he lost favor with the shogun, tokugawa ieyasu, because the latter deemed his swords too dangerous to use and considered them cursed. he forbade his samurai from using them and those who did were executed. and so the muramasa blades were either destroyed, discarded, hidden away or had their signatures erased or replaced. so who knows? perhaps some of the meito in japan now were muramasa blades once, they only had their signatures altered so muramasa never took the credit for their deeds and fame. this story sounds too much like kitetsu and his cursed blades. sandai kitetsu is not considered a meito either. and the reason for that is probably similar to that of muramasa's swords.

the way the muramasa blades resurfaced years later and how those who rebelled against the tokugawa regime took on these swords and even carried them openly, reminds me of how zoro disregarded the so-called curse and went ahead and used sandai kitetsu anyway.

it just seems incredibly unfair to me that just because of reputation swords would be deemed weak or unusable. so rankings don't really mean much to me. but then, in one piece this does not exactly apply. as for wado ichimonji, i guess it's because oda didn't give us (yet) a background about its history. i don't like the look of it too. sure, it's strong and quite possibly the most powerful sword zoro has ever owned, save for shuusui. but it looks like something a woman should wield, which is probably why i think the rightful owner should have been kuina. i don't think it really suits zoro's masculine and rough nature. this might change if we get to find out more about it though and when that happens i will stand corrected. perhaps it originally belonged to a famous onna bugeisha or woman samurai, who knows? it's just my opinion of course, don't worry about it.

[Talendra]

Just to throw a small question into the zoro/new crew member from wana discussion: why is it, anyone seems to expect a potential crew member from wano has to be some kind of samurai and therefore collide with zoros niche in the crew?

Someone from Wano could easily be more.. special in his role and still fit well into the wano-theme.