Madoka Magica - General Discussion

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

For the final episode, when Madoka is shown as a stronger, more confident person, you will watch 11 episodes of Madoka suffering? And only take pleasure in the last episode, but not the 11 episodes of misery?

I am skeptical.

It's not like the 10 episodes we've watched so far is nothing but Madoka suffering.

There's lovely visuals, there's genuinely heroic moments that I do find pleasurable, there's interesting characters and character developments, the plot unfolds with an element of mystery that leaves you wanting more out of sheer intellectual curiosity, some of the action scenes are fun to watch (especially Mami's), etc...

You can like all of this without taking enjoyment out of Madoka suffering.

Plus a certain degree of struggle (and hence suffering) is necessary to have a compelling conflict, in my opinion. I mean, an one-sided battle can get pretty boring pretty fast.

It's not necessarily about taking enjoyment in watching a character suffer; it's about taking enjoyment in the hope of the comeback that this may eventually give rise to.


So... do you now believe me?

[scr]

Now that we know that the QBeans are behind everything, Warp-Purged Night seems to be a small fry. I believe that season 2 is in order, and whoever will be the main character(s), she/they will fight the QBeans directly. I mean, think about the poor souls captured by the QBeans!

[Deconstructor]

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

This thread isn't exactly filled with uncaring, self-entitled people crying out 'How dare Madoka be delayed!' Seems like we're arguing against an invisible enemy here...

Anyone who even hints at the possibility - that Madoka should not be delayed - is the enemy. By posting what you posted below the quote, you are the enemy. I am the enemy too. Your attempt to suggest that we are not is simple deflection.

Never thought someone would agree with me, though.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

You can like all of this without taking enjoyment out of Madoka suffering.

You can enjoy the other stuff. But I'm suggesting you also enjoy Madoka suffering, or you would not continue watching.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Plus a certain degree of struggle (and hence suffering) is necessary to have a compelling conflict, in my opinion. I mean, an one-sided battle can get pretty boring pretty fast.

This whole anime has been a one-sided emotional conflict. Madoka felt happy for the first few episodes. After that, it's been suffering, misery, despair, crying, begging, hopelessness. All those "heroic sacrifices" are depressing in retrospect and further confirm how terrible it is to be a teenage girl in the Madokaverse. And it's right in the viewer's face; you either enjoy watching Madoka suffering, or hate it and never watch again.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It's not necessarily about taking enjoyment in watching a character suffer; it's about taking enjoyment in the hope of the comeback that this may eventually give rise to.

So, you want Madoka to win.
But is that really why you watched 8 straight episodes of innocent girls being tortured, agonized, and stigmatized? So that in the final minutes of the finale, you can watch Madoka and Homura place their feet over Kyubey's dead body? While possible, I find it very difficult to believe.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

do you now believe me?

No.
It is like saying you watch Infinite Stratos for the plot. What you really mean is you watch for the plots.

But I'm not going to press any further. You can watch for whatever you desire to watch.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

Anyone who even hints at the possibility - that Madoka should not be delayed - is the enemy.

What's the big deal if it's delayed? A delaying will not upset the creative integrity of the work (as actual censorship likely would, of course).

As long as we eventually get to see the unedited finale to it, I don't see a problem with simply being a bit patient here.

You can enjoy the other stuff. But I'm suggesting you also enjoy Madoka suffering, or you would not continue watching.

Your suggestion is wrong.

This whole anime has been a one-sided emotional conflict. Madoka felt happy for the first few episodes. After that, it's been suffering, misery, despair, crying, begging, hopelessness.

I disagree. There has been a glimmer of hope through out this anime, displayed by characters trying their best to be heroic and helpful towards others.

All those "heroic sacrifices" are depressing in retrospect...

This is one key area where I disagree with you, and some other posters. It's partly why I do not hold any of the girls' decisions to become a magical girl against them (and this is a position that I had already made on this Madoka Magica subforum on the Sayaka Miki thread, prior to our debate here).

I still consider Mami coming to Madoka and Sayaka's aid in Episode 1 to be a noble and heroic act that was pleasing to watch.

I still consider Mami's various successful fights in Episodes 2 and 3 to be noble and heroic acts that were pleasing to watch.

I still consider Sayaka saving Madoka and Hitomi in Episode 4 to be a noble and heroic act that was pleasing to watch.

I still consider Homura's rescuing of Sayaka's soul gem in Episode 6 (IIRC) to be a noble and heroic act that was pleasing to watch.

I still consider Kyoko's attempts to rescue Sayaka in Episodes 8 and 9 to be noble and heroic acts that were somewhat pleasing to watch.

And I still consider Mami and Madoka's rescue of Homura in Episode 10 to be noble and heroic acts that was pleasing to watch.

As you can see by that list, there's a fairly steady stream of these, at least one every other episode. So that's enough to maintain my interest, and maintain some level of optimism for me in the overall direction of this plot. Depending on how this anime ends, some of these acts may hold up as heroic and helpful (even from a pragmatic point of view). Of course, a total "bad end" would render all of them pointless, or worse.

With that in mind, there's a reason why I would hate a total bad end for this anime, as I stated here.

A total bad end would indeed ruin this anime for me precisely because I am not watching this anime out of any desire to witness suffering.

And it's right in the viewer's face; you either enjoy watching Madoka suffering, or hate it and never watch again.

Wrong. It's not that simplistic.

For one thing, there's a big gulf between "enjoy" and "hate". Some of Madoka's suffering I'm actually apathetic towards. After awhile, you can become somewhat desensitized to simple crying.

So, you want Madoka to win. But is that really why you watched 8 straight episodes of innocent girls being tortured, agonized, and stigmatized?

There's more to those 8 episodes than that. Far more.

So that in the final minutes of the finale, you can watch Madoka and Homura place their feet over Kyubey's dead body?

I don't care if Kyubey dies or not. I do hope that Madoka and Homura have a nice ending though, yes.

While possible, I find it very difficult to believe.

I find it very difficult to understand why people would delight in the sight of suffering.

No.

I highly resent you essentially calling me a lier.

But given the arguments that I just made, I'm going to ask you again: Do you believe me when I say that I don't watch this show to see Madoka suffering, or do you not believe me?

It is like saying you watch Infinite Stratos for the plot.

Not that I'm following Infinite Stratos, but why is that so inconceivable? I know a person who generally dislikes fanservice, and watched Ikki Tousen for the plot.

You'd clearly be surprised by what people are willing to tolerate if an anime gains their interest for a different reason.

But I'm not going to press any further. You can watch for whatever you desire to watch.

If you truly mean this, then you will admit that I am telling the truth when I say that I don't watch Madoka Magica to see Madoka suffer.

[Deconstructor]

As I said, I am not going to press you any farther; I just needed to make a point. I will simply answer one question, and then you can have the last word.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

But given the arguments that I just made, I'm going to ask you again: Do you believe me when I say that I don't watch this show to see Madoka suffering, or do you not believe me?

I do not believe you.
I believe that you watch for other things, but the main attraction is Madoka's suffering.

If you really were not watching for Madoka's suffering, then you would not be so defensive and agitated over my claim that you do. You wouldn't call me a sick, wrong person who needed psychiatric help. You merely claim to be different on the outside, because deep down you enjoy these guilty pleasures. Everyone does. It is not that big of a deal to admit, unless you are so concerned with deflecting people's opinions that you adopt a "noble" persona on the outside.

Don't you see that in so passionately criticizing me, you are only revealing your true motivations behind watching this show?

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Not that I'm following Infinite Stratos, but why is that so inconceivable? I know a person who generally dislikes fanservice, and watched Ikki Tousen for the plot.

Somehow, I find that hard to believe.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

As I said, I am not going to press you any farther; I just needed to make a point.

You're not making it well then.

I will simply answer one question, and then you can have the last word.



I do not believe you.

Then you are mistaken.

I believe that you watch for other things, but the main attraction is Madoka's suffering.

That is definitely not the main attraction to this anime for me.

If you really were not watching for Madoka's suffering, then you would not be so defensive and agitated over my claim that you do.

This is a very poor and illogical argument on your part.

People who care about the truth and/or accuracy are going to argue strenuously for it. They will want to set the record straight, so that no misconceptions or misinterpretations cloud and hinder discussion.

You wouldn't call me a sick, wrong person who needed psychiatric help.

I never said precisely that to you. Not with that exact meaning (you're leaving out important context and qualifiers - plus with the words "sick" and "wrong" I wasn't talking about you as a person, but rather your world view, as I see it), and not on this thread. It's very bad form to drag parts of PM discussions into a public thread.

You merely claim to be different on the outside, because deep down you enjoy these guilty pleasures.

No, I claim to be different from you because I am, and I think it's important for people to realize that not everybody is watching this anime for the same core reason.

I think that part of the reason why you're refusing to admit that what I'm telling you is true is because you know that will weaken your "it should not be delayed" argument if you do so. Because if the main attraction of this anime, for a lot of viewers, is not character suffering, then your argument there becomes less pertinent and certainly less universally applicable.

The truth of the matter is probably that you have a passionate hatred of censorship, for any reason at any time. You hate to see exterior factors influence when and how anime is aired. To a certain degree, I sympathize with that. I myself am anxious to see where the anime goes from here.

But I think that it's important to keep the bigger picture in mind.

Everyone does.

No, not everyone does.

Don't you see that in so passionately criticizing me, you are only revealing your true motivations behind watching this show?

No, by passionately arguing my case I am doing whatever I can to set the record straight, because I know how much misconceptions and incorrect perceptions can cloud and hinder conversations and people's understanding of things. This anime's plot itself is a very clear example of that.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It's very bad form to drag parts of PM discussions into a public thread.

Well this got my attention. Both of you, take it back to PM's, or drop the discussion entirely. This doesn't need to be hashed out in public.

[zato_1one]

I doubt that the content would affect the broadcasting. Considering that Onii-chan no Koto even had something like this after the quake.



I know that it is just a comedy show and that scene was not real. But still...

[aeriolewinters]

that screenie is so... out of time right now lol

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It's not like the 10 episodes we've watched so far is nothing but Madoka suffering.

There's lovely visuals, there's genuinely heroic moments that I do find pleasurable, there's interesting characters and character developments, the plot unfolds with an element of mystery that leaves you wanting more out of sheer intellectual curiosity, some of the action scenes are fun to watch (especially Mami's), etc...

You can like all of this without taking enjoyment out of Madoka suffering.

Plus a certain degree of struggle (and hence suffering) is necessary to have a compelling conflict, in my opinion. I mean, an one-sided battle can get pretty boring pretty fast.

It's not necessarily about taking enjoyment in watching a character suffer; it's about taking enjoyment in the hope of the comeback that this may eventually give rise to.


So... do you now believe me?

I could agree. Like I said earlier on, if this story is effectively "pointless", it'd be no better than a magical girl snuff show.

Personally, I like depressing shit because it takes strong characters to face and deal with their problems.

[sa547]

Originally Posted by zato_1one

I doubt that the content would affect the broadcasting. Considering that Onii-chan no Koto even had something like this after the quake.



I know that it is just a comedy show and that scene was not real. But still...

That and the watery ruins in Episode 10... too close for comfort.

[Misaka of Misaka]

Originally Posted by zato_1one

I doubt that the content would affect the broadcasting. Considering that Onii-chan no Koto even had something like this after the quake.

I am really surprised to see this picture.
The television staff who allowed it to be broadcasted is fearless.

[duckroll]

Originally Posted by zato_1one

I doubt that the content would affect the broadcasting. Considering that Onii-chan no Koto even had something like this after the quake.

Yes, it aired.... on tvk. Independent television stations with a much smaller audience who do not have to answer to an affiliate group have less responsibilities to worry about. It was probably not the best call on their part to air it in the first place, but it should be noted that out of the 6 stations which would have aired that episode so far, they are the only ones who went ahead (they are the lead broadcaster anyway).

Different stations have different standards when in regards to censorship and handling of sensitive materials. The worst stations is without a doubt TV Tokyo, with discourages showing of too much blood even on their late night anime. When the Tokyo Sarin Gas attacks happened in the subway trains, TV Tokyo decided not to show any of the plot-centric Syndicate episodes of Cowboy Bebop at all, instead trimming the airing to 13 episodes of all the non-essential filler episodes. The entire series as produced was only aired later when the cable channel WOWOW picked it up.

On the other hand, TBS/MBS and FujiTV are two of the most liberal channels in terms of a) having wide coverage, b) not being particularly bothered by more mature/graphic content. TBS/MBS in particular is well known for the balls they have shown in airing certain episodes of Gundam SEED, Fullmetal Alchemist, and even Code Geass, at late afternoon daytime slots on weekends, complete with tons of violence and blood.

As I said, only time will tell if this will impact Madoka, but taking one example does not mean anything unless said example fits the same circumstances. Even then, if TBS had indeed aired something like Onii-chan no Koto after the quake, if there are enough complaints from viewers about that, it would still affect future broadcasting of other shows.

Today, several major game releases have been either delayed to cancelled in Japan. I think this clearly shows that companies still feel the need to react to this sort of thing by looking sensitive. Zettai Zetsumei Toshi 4 (Disaster Report) has been completely cancelled, even though the release date was previously already delayed to a late Spring release.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

I could agree. Like I said earlier on, if this story is effectively "pointless", it'd be no better than a magical girl snuff show.

Personally, I like depressing shit because it takes strong characters to face and deal with their problems.

That's similar to what I mean by "It's not necessarily about taking enjoyment in watching a character suffer; it's about taking enjoyment in the hope of the comeback that this may eventually give rise to."

In order for characters to overcome "depressing shit", and gain this comeback, they need to be "strong" and "deal with their problems", which is rewarding to watch, imo.

This is part of the reason why I was disappointed in Sayaka's quick descent into being a witch. I'm disappointed in part because I was hoping that she would have an important role in my hoped for protagonist comeback, but that seems highly unlikely now, of course.

One of the most rewarding stretches of anime episodes that I've ever watched, which gave me an immense emotional catharsis, was the final arc in Higurashi Kai.

Spoiler for Higurashi Kai:

This is because after such a long period of unsuccessful struggle and suffering for the protagonists, we're treated to the ultimate comeback. Watching that, for me, had an effect similar to eating food after a fasting period, or drinking a glass of water after you've thoroughly exhausted yourself and your mouth has gone dry. It's that much more rewarding precisely because you've gone without it for so long.

This anime of Madoka Magica similarly now has the potential to achieve such an immensely emotionally cathartic ending.

It's not that the suffering gives me any pleasure, it's that in the back of my mind, I know that it might all set up a dramatic final comeback that will bring with it great emotional release.

[jeroz]

anyway, back onto topic

so Walpurgisnacht is end of March and beginning of April
while Homura transferred to Madoka' school on the 25th of March.

Does that mean what happened in the past 9 episodes all happen within less than a week?
That's a lot of emotional torture to go through within that short amount of time.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by jeroz

anyway, back onto topic

so Walpurgisnacht is end of March and beginning of April
while Homura transferred to Madoka' school on the 25th of March.

Does that mean what happened in the past 9 episodes all happen within less than a week?
That's a lot of emotional torture to go through within that short amount of time.

Actually, Walpurgis Night is the night of April 30. If I remember correctly, Homura told Kyoko Walpurgis night would take place a week from now when she approached her back in episode 6 (5?) so about a month has passed since the beginning of the anime.

[duckroll]

Walpurgis Night is April 30th/May 1st. It's a month after the start, not a week.

[Reckoner]

@Deconstructor

I know you may disagree with Triple_R, but really he isn't a liar. What reason would he have to lie about his opinions if not to troll (Which IMO he clearly isn't doing so as he has shown to clearly care about his view points on this show)?

I realize Madoka is a deconstruction, so if a viewer can't understand that this show clearly demonstrates a stark contrast from the typical fluffy clouds and optimism of your usual MG show, then this will obviously detere one from enjoying the show.

However, a deconstruction doesn't necessarily imply that the sole goal of the show is to draw enjoyment from the depressing realities of such a situation. There are many reasons to enjoy Madoka overall besides the depressing realities of the MG system. One thing is the friendship of Homura with Madoka that really is, touching to watch on screen, despite it being heart breaking. Another for some people can be the visual style.

There are certainly likable characters as well. Though Gen may enjoy torturing his audiences, his end intentions sin't to simply depress you. If you are familiar with his other works, you'd understand this too I hope.

Personally, while I do enjoy the deconstructed atmosphere of Madoka, simply killing everyone off or damning them to eternal suffering wouldn't provide the most gratifying ending IMO (And I believe for most people as well).

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

That's similar to what I mean by "It's not necessarily about taking enjoyment in watching a character suffer; it's about taking enjoyment in the hope of the comeback that this may eventually give rise to."

In order for characters to overcome "depressing shit", and gain this comeback, they need to be "strong" and "deal with their problems", which is rewarding to watch, imo.

This is part of the reason why I was disappointed in Sayaka's quick descent into being a witch. I'm disappointed in part because I was hoping that she would have an important role in my hoped for protagonist comeback, but that seems highly unlikely now, of course.

One of the most rewarding stretches of anime episodes that I've ever watched, which gave me an immense emotional catharsis, was the final arc in Higurashi Kai.

Spoiler for Higurashi Kai:

This is because after such a long period of unsuccessful struggle and suffering for the protagonists, we're treated to the ultimate comeback. Watching that, for me, had an effect similar to eating food after a fasting period, or drinking a glass of water after you've thoroughly exhausted yourself and your mouth has gone dry. It's that much more rewarding precisely because you've gone without it for so long.

This anime of Madoka Magica similarly now has the potential to achieve such an immensely emotionally cathartic ending.

It's not that the suffering gives me any pleasure, it's that in the back of my mind, I know that it might all set up a dramatic final comeback that will bring with it great emotional release.

There are many reasons to watch Madoka. Some are more shallow than others. Personally I just have a heavy bias towards Homura, thus more time was spent going "zomg. she's so cool!" rather than all the death and destruction. She does seem to have traits of many of my favorite characters, so yea...

But I will say. Many have criticized Higurashi for generating a cop out at the end due to certain conveniences. After all, real life is full of disaster and without hope. Some never get a chance and like it or not, there are just some cannot be saved; by demanding they have a happy ending could trivialize how we all view suffering. It's why tragedies are so popular, no? So sometimes a good ending that runs counter to the rest of a story could be considered escapism.

Shiori Misaka: "It's called a miracle because it doesn't happen."

Though personally, I thought Higurashi was much better in the 2nd half because it was less of a sadistic gorefest and focused more on making actual sense. However, it doesn't seem as popular or infamous as season 1. I can see a strong correlation between that and Madoka, since people seemed to have developed more interest since Mami dying.



But on the other hand, it is equally as foolish to say escapism in fiction is inherently bad. In fact, I reject this notion completely. It is fiction after all. I mean if I wanted to really sink into the depths of despair and pointlessness, I'd just down a bottle of [insert crappy cheap American booze]. To face reality, one must go outside. Thus, bashing escapism is kinda silly.

As I said in my own Higurashi Kai review:

Spoiler:

So Rika did cheat to win. But wouldn't you after all this? Everyone is using whatever at their disposal to get what they want. It's only fair that Rika and friends should too.

When the deck is stacked so heavily against you in the first place, I don't really see a problem with cheating anymore.

What makes a story awesome? What makes a character awesome? When you see someone claim victory from an unwinnable game. When you see someone turn death into a fighting chance to live. When you see people doing things when everyone else said it couldn't be done.

You cannot view reality as what can't be done. It must be viewed in terms of what can be done, because we have no other choice.

And that pretty much explains why my favorite animes (and characters) are my favorites. If Madoka can dare to do what it takes, it may be there too, very soon.

[omimon]

http://yunakiti.blog79.fc2.com/blog-entry-8149.html

Seems like episode 11 is gonna be broadcast on MBS in it's usual timeslot for the time being.