(L) ef - a tale of memories.

[Kaoru Chujo]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

...he should realise the most important thing which is Chihiro is right there and in front of him and that even though her memories reset, she still wants to build up a relationship with him. For me that was one of the most profound moments in the show, that her love for him can survive a memory reset....

For me, too. Except I'm not sure it's her love directly, but her willingness to love that remains, and the fact that Renji's nature and hers somehow "fit." Although Renji is desperately afraid that Chihiro actually keeps dying, in fact I think his statement that she is still Chihiro is right: she may forget her memories, but her basic way of being remains the same.

And I agree with Whitesparkles' take on Hiro-Miyako. I don't see pity, I see love. Anything can happen in the future. Her insecurity might cause problems. But I think he loves her for herself as he knows her: the sharp, funny, unpredictable woman who brightens his life.

By the way, I personally prefer "who is suited to whom" to "who is deserving of whom." Who deserves whom is a calculation I don't know how to make. In any case, since we are all flawed humans, I'm not sure any of us "deserve" anything.

And finally, I personally like Kei and feel more sorry for her than anything. But I don't think there's much point in personal argument over it. I can understand how people could strongly disapprove of her because of her actions.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

As for the former case, I want to reassure people that Miyako x Hiro has been etched into the skies by the (narrative) gods, that Kei has another romantic interest anyway, that Miyako and Hiro are so perfect for each other that Hiro would never, ever abandon Miyako for Kei. Completely serious. It's impossible. Trust me, I know.

And I'd also like to say that I am completely open to suggestions for alternate motivations for celebrating Kei's misery. If somebody could suggest one that involves neither being pro-MiyaHiro nor anti-Kei, why, then I'd gladly rescind my outrage and call them 'teacher'.

Oh, please. Sarcasm much?

Who here is truly celebrating Kei's misery with no counterbalancing thoughts of empathy/sympathy? Who here absolutely despises Kei and felt nothing but pure satisfaction at her tears and loss? Who here believes that Miyako is nothing but a pure loving angel, absolutely without fault, who saved Hiro from that dirty, filthy tramp Kei? Any takers? Anyone at all? If so, you're apparently being put on notice. Please send Sol Falling a PM and respond to his accusations against you.

For most everyone else in this thread, these posts don't apply. You're arguing against ghosts.

[Zippicus]

Since the topic seems to have been sliding towards Kei again I'll toss my 2 cents in. I don't dislike Kei, but I dislike the things she does. I have a friend that falls into the same category. I love him to death, he's funny, charismatic, the life of the party, etc. but he does things that drive me absolutely crazy. When his antics land him in trouble, which they invariably do, we all generally have a good laugh at his expense while gleefully rubbing salt into his wounds. That's pretty much how I feel about Kei as well, karma can be a bitch sometimes

[tripperazn]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

For me, too. Except I'm not sure it's her love directly, but her willingness to love that remains, and the fact that Renji's nature and hers somehow "fit." Although Renji is desperately afraid that Chihiro actually keeps dying, in fact I think his statement that she is still Chihiro is right: she may forget her memories, but her basic way of being remains the same.

I think that Renji and Chihiro "fit" because they had the same sense of purposelessness before they met each other. The unused train junction clearly was a powerful example of ef's symbolism. Renji laments on how he doesn't know how to fill out his aspirations on the class survey while wasting his days away doing nothing in the station. We now know that Chihiro was stuck with the same existential angst with her memory and consequent depression. Their compatibility comes from the fact that both now derive some sort of purpose in their lives due to daily interaction with each other.

Currently, Renji is short-sighted in that he sees only the love that he has lost, but not the potential gain with continual effort. Give him a break, anyone would be shocked in this situation.

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

By the way, I personally prefer "who is suited to whom" to "who is deserving of whom." Who deserves whom is a calculation I don't know how to make. I think love is beyond ethics, if you want to put it like that. In any case, since we are all flawed humans, I'm not sure any of us "deserve" anything.

There is no such thing as fairness in this world. What have we done to "deserve" sitting in a comfortable room chatting about anime while millions face famine and disease? This is especially true for love, going into a relationship because you pity someone and think they "deserve" happiness is a terrible reason benefiting no one. There is a reason why dating sites use compatibility criteria and not a survey of "how much your life sucks".

[Sol Falling]

dude, do you want me to go just three pages back in this thread and pick out every name that was basically going 'pwnt bitch!' in their reactions to episode 9? I generally work with the assumption that people have even a little short term memory. I'm not the one who keeps on bumping the subject by replying to these posts long after they lose their relevance. I could be the better man and just let you guys confuse and weaken my message, but I've never pretended to be that kind of person, y'know?

And no, I wasn't being sarcastic. I was being serious. Anybody can see that MiyaHiro is canon for this series, and it would blow my mind if somebody could crack that epitome of logic I set up there. Honestly. I'm always willing to learn. It might seem sarcastic to you because I just don't expect somebody to be able to teach me, but I love surprises.

[AvatarST]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

It isn't a problem of "who is deserving who", but rather "who is best suited for who".

Yes, yes, I agree it isn't a matter of "who is deserving who" but for me I often have feelings of "who is deserving of happiness".

I'll always support the person I think is the nicest to get happiness over the more selfish/meaner ones, whether that entails "winning" (iow, getting together with whatever/whoever the male lead is) or not.

But here, I want both Miyako and Kei to be happy in the end, since I don't really think badly of the latter. She's just lost, that's all. Of course, if I had to pick one, I'd rather Miyako was the one to find her way. Because I think she's nicer.

As for the other argument going on here, about Kei, I could see why some viewers would be antagonized by her past actions. People generally don't think much of cheating and lying, even if those reasons are understandable due to her past. After all, many could just say that if she was nicer/smarter/more mature, maybe she'd be able to deal with her past better, without hurting others (even if that wasn't her motivation).

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

I could be the better man and just let you guys confuse and weaken my message, but I've never pretended to be that kind of person, y'know? [...] ...it would blow my mind if somebody could crack that epitome of logic I set up there. [...] It might seem sarcastic to you because I just don't expect somebody to be able to teach me, but I love surprises.

You're just too much, man. Honestly. "I could defer to the better judgement of others, but that'd mean my point would get lost and it might appear as though I don't, in fact, know it all, which I highly doubt." And you're saying this with a straight face?

Forums are about conversation. A conversation is not merely about speaking and voicing opinions, but about listening. The goal of listening is to understand; from understanding comes insight, and from insight comes wisdom. If you really don't think that anyone has anything to teach you, then you won't hear a single word anyone says. The only voice you'll truly hear is your own and, beause of that, you'll be forever stuck fighting straw men, ghosts, and other figments of your own imagination. Because you're alone in your world, that makes you the god of your world, right? In your own world, you'll always be right. But this isn't Chihiro's story; this is reality. And until you're willing to humble yourself and admit that every person and situation has something to teach you, you may never have anything truly wise or insightful to say. After all, wisdom begins with listening, and you won't listen if you don't think anyone has anything useful to say.

Please, no more of your "anti-anti-Kei" in this thread until it specifically comes up again, thanks. It's off-topic.

[Sol Falling]

haha. It's hard to believe that 'every person and every situation' has something to teach you when you've been in the same damn place for days, months, years. Nah, I don't think I was learning anything new from the nth "Kei sucks" or the nth "that was beautiful". I realize I'm doing you guys the same disservice by posting the same thing 'reworded'; I'll keep it to 'exposition' in the future then. If you'll listen--I'm listening too, for the birth of new ideas. (insert *nice guy* pose or whatever, gawd)

[guuchan]

To lighten up this debate(?), I will share something with you guys.

A couple days ago, one of the Eclipse translators told me something very interesting: if you put together the first letters of all the known episode titles so far, you get "EUPHORIC{insert space here}FI", something you should recognize. I guess that indirectly implies how many exact episodes it's going to be.

Anyone's interested to guess what the titles of the rest of the episodes will be, knowing the first letters of them?

[X207]

Originally Posted by guuchan

To lighten up this debate(?), I will share something with you guys.

A couple days ago, one of the Eclipse translators told me something very interesting: if you put together the first letters of all the known episode titles so far, you get "EUPHORIC{insert space here}FI", something you should recognize. I guess that indirectly implies how many exact episodes it's going to be.

Anyone's interested to guess what the titles of the rest of the episodes will be, knowing the first letters of them?

thats an interesting way to give titles to the eps
maybe it turns out to spell euphoric find??

[guuchan]

Originally Posted by X207

thats an interesting way to give titles to the eps
maybe it turns out to spell euphoric find??

Argh, go watch the OP animation carefully! *smacks*

[anselfir]

This show is hilarious. great lulz

i had the wtfpwned face at the end of the sex episode btw. hahahaa

[X207]

Originally Posted by guuchan

Argh, go watch the OP animation carefully! *smacks*

i do see that it spelss out the op title but thats 1 ep too short. i'll eventually figure it out.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by X207

i do see that it spelss out the op title but thats 1 ep too short. i'll eventually figure it out.

The final two episode titles do indeed start with "e" and "l" ("ever forever", and "love").

I bet ef - the latter tale will include a bonus anime OVA episode. It's "conveniently" being released only a few weeks after the final DVD. I bet this is their way of announcing it.

[barefoot]

i know im gotta get flamed by this but i really dislike kei character. she didnt really change since her childhood times isnt it? haha, i laughed at her at ep9.

freak it hirano, what ya doing? you route to harem is clear cut right now, grab both miyako and kei (although i dislike her). this is the best combination, all parties will be happy

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by tripperazn

Currently, Renji is short-sighted in that he sees only the love that he has lost, but not the potential gain with continual effort. Give him a break, anyone would be shocked in this situation.

I think this is one of the big problems for Renji, if he sees his relationship with Chihiro as something he needs a break from, then I believe he is looking at it from the wrong angle. Cup half full thingymadooda....

I'm not saying that Renji should suddenly grow mature and responsible to handle* a person like Chihiro, but I think he has to get his guard up. Firstly to deal with the idea of not needing to loose something to before realising how important it actually is to him.

He actually is quite lucky in a very sad way. Most people don't get to experience a change in their loved ones until after they have been together for a few years and then they realise that they only could love that person the way they were. Personally I think that is a rather sad way to be, as I am all for growing old together with my partner. Now Renji is able to take this experience and decide is he the type of person who can love someone no matter how they change, or is he the type who can only love the person he met originally? I am of course talking about minor changes, not finding out that your loved one is a devil worshipping baby eater....

I wonder which Chihiro is Renji lamenting upon? Chihiro has changed from when we first saw her to now. From a sad lonely girl who lives each day just to pass it, to a girl who wants to live and looks forward to each day. I think that is a great change. I'm pretty sure from the clips that went by in Renji's mind that he does love her a whole and not just his idealised form of who she is.

Finally I think he needs to be watchful of the Yu factor. I just don't get that guy and even if in his own mind he has Chihiro's best interests at heart, I don't think he does.

*I don't like putting it that way, but I can't think of a better word....

[NoSanninWa]

Originally Posted by barefoot

freak it hirano, what ya doing? your route to harem is clear cut right now, grab both miyako and kei (although i dislike her). this is the best combination, all parties will be happy

Oh sure, all parties will be happy except for Kei and Miyako, neither of whom is fond of sharing.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by NoSanninWa

Oh sure, all parties will be happy except for Kei and Miyako, neither of whom is fond of sharing.

Only one way to solve that, and that is to have a mud wrestling contest! Miyako with the psychological upper hand and Kei with the busted knee, it looks like Miyako has it in the bag. All us perverted viewers will be winners too

[Eviltape]

Alright, I finally caught up with everything. 2 nights of epic drama, my gosh that's harsh on my head. Renji's side is the more interesting half of the series for me, though.

To describe Hiro's arc in 4 Words: School Days, Season 2.

[Skyfall]

You sure picked very wrong 4 words to describe the situation, as it doesn't even remotely resemble School Days.
*Skyfall is getting annoyed at this shallow and tasteless comparison being thrown around in every single romance anime thread*