2010-02-19, 23:58 | Link #22 | |||||||||||
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Well... looks like I have a lot to finally respond to.
Thanks to everyone for their thoughtful replies to my last post on this thread. There's also a couple other comments made since then that I'd like to touch on. Quote:
I'd honestly be surprised if K-On! is ahead in that category, but I don't know. Like yourself, I'm pretty sure that KyoAni only makes a profit off of the actual anime (DVD sales, on-line streaming sales perhaps, now movie gate receipts to some degree I would imagine). Quote:
For quite some time, KyoAni and/or Kadokawa would put Disappearance-based images in popular magazines to promote Haruhi. Personally, this struck me as preying on the fans desire for Disappearance to be adapted into the anime. Now, that would be fine if Disappearance was actually being adapted soon, but for a long time, it wasn't. Now that it finally has been adapted, though, that takes quite a bit of an edge off of my previous viral marketing complaint. Making fans wait a bit longer than they would naturally expect to isn't necessarily nice, but it's certainly better than failing to deliver entirely. Quote:
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All of those questionable Haruhi promotions (questionable only because they referenced Disappearance long before the movie came out) at least proved that KyoAni still cared about Haruhi, even well into the three-year layoff. Quote:
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I suspect, and admit, that what I've called viral marketing was Kadokawa and/or KyoAni's attempt to keep Haruhi more front-and-center in the anime fan's thinking. Don't let Haruhi fade due to lack of recent exposure, basically. I can certainly understand and respect that. I would have preferred it if it wasn't through teasing fans about Disappearance up to two years in advance, but since Disappearance was a movie (and not a part of a season of episodes), it seems a bit less questionable now. I mean, some big Hollywood blockbusters are, in fact, promoted up to two years in advance, I think. All of the Haruhi references and/or seiyu use in Lucky Star might have been part of the plan here too. Quote:
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And I haven't even played the games. I say this purely on the basis of seven 4Komas I read that I found hilarious. Little Busters and Haruhi are the two properties I'd most like to see more of from KyoAni in the next year or two. Quote:
I have to agree here, at least in most instances. KyoAni realizes that an anime is not a light novel, and what works in one medium might not work in another. At the same time, though, KyoAni values source material faithfulness as much as any animation studio around (sometimes too much so, it could even be argued). So, at its best, KyoAni gives the best of both worlds. Faithful adaptation, but improving on areas where the medium change basically demands it. Day of Sagittarius would have been nowhere near as good if not for the shout outs to other anime, as you said.
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2010-02-20, 00:59 | Link #23 | ||
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And then you have shows like Lucky Star which at times decided to just forgo the parody in favour of just featuring actual products like FMP Manga and Mikuru Figurines and even Aya Hirano herself. To me that's not really clever or even parody or tribute, it's just marketing and tapping into other market interests. Other shows are guilty of it to (a lot of them Kyoani shows as well come to think of it), but that still takes the cake for my top example of marketing meets tribute. Quote:
I think a lot of what needs to happen is for people that start with Kyoani shows and moe shows etc. to try and branch out and see what the rest of the industry is coming out with and gain if not an interest, at least an appreciation and awareness for it. It'd certainly help people to see why when everybody is raving about a particular "achievement" by Kyoani I often (upon hearing the news) come in and basically say "yes, but in the grand scheme of things this really isn't that overwhelmingly impressive" and in my fouler moods tend to mock the celebration of it. |
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2010-02-20, 04:59 | Link #24 | |
less qq; more pewpew
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Philippines
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On BD sales: IMO, part of the reason why K-On! (and Bakemonogatari, though the commentary tracks and remastered scenes were what really mattered) BD sales were stupidly high because we are currently in the process of transitioning from HD DVD to Blu-Ray. DVD is getting phased out, and most DVD buyers already have BD players / PS3. Also, eyeballing these lists, the BD to DVD sales ratio is somehow related to the titles' genre(s). Interesting...
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2010-02-20, 06:19 | Link #25 | |
Yuki Nagato Worshipper
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Hot, Very Hot Singapore
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As you yourself have pointed out directly or indirectly on more than one occasion, the popularity of anime series can be hype-driven. Thus, those "artsy-fartsy", or less mainstream works then to get buried. I for one, will like to know what you yourself think is overwhelming impressive. |
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2010-02-20, 09:24 | Link #26 | ||||
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It wasn't that shouting out to other animes is necessarily good; it's that, in Day of Sagittarius' case, the alternative would have been kind of boring. Watching several minutes of the SOS Brigade play a video game from the perspective of somebody walking around the club room would not have been quite as entertaining and explosive as watching Zeon Commander Haruhi go to literal war with the Earth Sphere Alliance's CCP. But, in fairness, other animation studios get this right too. Fate/Stay Night's action sequences in their anime is a nice improvement off of the games that the anime is based on, imo, for example. Quote:
I'd like to see less of this in anime in general, or at least to have the other animes referenced to be referenced in a genuinely clever and witty way. Quote:
I think they're one of the best, but they have their weaknesses like every other studio does (ex. KyoAni couldn't do an anime original anime if their lives depended on it; AIC and Sunrise can, to their credit). For adapting school-based light novels and visual novels/games, KyoAni is probably the best in the business (although, even here, JC Staff and SHAFT are at least close competitors). Quote:
But then, at least some people here do in fact watch other non-KyoAni animes. I know that Kogetsu likes Gurren Lagann and Code Geass. I know that Kaisos loves Umineko and likes Bakemonogatari. I know that Amy loves Umineko. I know that Archon_Wing likes Shana and Nanoha. And I like (usually) all of the above animes. So that's good, at least.
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2010-02-20, 10:02 | Link #27 | |
Sav'aaq!
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Hyrule
Age: 51
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Grammar lessons aside, I'm not suggesting you're wrong about other studios making good adaptations. I can't see any studio other than Shaft doing a better adaptation of Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei, for example. My point was that, as evidenced by at least the latter two Full Metal Panics and a majority of the (non E8) episodes from Haruhi (and Disappearance, by the majority of reviews), KyoAni can be very good—better than most, in fact—at successfully adapting a story and adding/adapting just enough to make the adaptation shine on its own merits while staying faithful to the original. Haruhi-chan was very faithful to the spirit of its source material, even if the anime material was largely new (I've only read a few chapters of the manga, so that last part might be wrong). I haven't read any of the Lucky Star or K-On manga, so I have no idea how much of that was "faithfully adapted", but they were inarguably successful, at least monetarily (and Lucky Star certainly had its moments). I'd argue that multiple-ending visual novels like Kanon and Clannad are pretty much impossible to adapt "faithfully" unless you want to take pages from Higurashi no Naku Koro Ni and Endless Eight, but it's obvious by recent comments that Your Mileage May Vary on whether they did so successfully.
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2010-02-20, 11:01 | Link #28 | |||||
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Some interesting discussion going on.
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Agreed, I’ve been saying this before sales in new anime have been skewed by the Blu-Ray introduction. Gundam00, Macross Frontier, K-on and Bakemonogatari all sold far more on BR then other anime did on DVD. Not surprising that visually impressive shows do very well on BR. If your a collector, your going to go for the best possible quality. Quote:
In fairness we do know who does what, Kadokawa has announced that they themselves controlled the marketing, while Kyoani or more specifically Tatsuya Ishihara has full creative control over Haruhi anime. The only thing I can imagine stopping more Haruhi projects would be a lack of source material in the long run. Speculating, we may not have to wait as long as last time as there have been no Key projects for Kyoani since Clannad AS and the latest went to P.A.Works. So I wouldn’t be surprised if they announced a new TV series or second movie soon. Quote:
As for other companies in 2009 I was really impressed by two Type-Moon based productions, Canaan and Kara No Kyou Kai by P.A.Works and Ufotable. Type –moon creates much darker and violent works then Key. Then off course the big studios like production IG and Bones delivered as usual with anime like Eden of the East, Kimi ni Todoke and Darker then Black 2. |
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2010-02-20, 11:26 | Link #29 |
Is this dangerous??
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Unknown Void, M'sia
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Yeah , there are other company that make fine animes.
btw, isnt these a little off topic?? sorry if my post hurts anyone feeling Edit:Ignore this post now
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Last edited by darksassin; 2010-02-20 at 21:58. |
2010-02-20, 11:54 | Link #30 | ||
Hare Hare Sera Fuku!
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Sunny Singapore
Age: 32
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Wow, all this business talk is mind-boggling. I'll try to stay out of it as much as possible because I simply do not have a business brain and as such can't fathom KyoAni's plans and actions as well as y'all here.
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Then again, I get your point. KyoAni's viral marketing (which you now know I call 'trolling' ) is very invasive. Judging by their past actions of deliberately advertising Disappearance that only came years later, just to keep Haruhi in the limelight, it wouldn't seem that unusual for Lucky Star to be just a promotional tool for Haruhi. Hare Hare Yukai dance? Cosplayers as Yuki, Mikuru and Haruhi? Phrases made popular in Haruhi such as megass? All check. That being said, I'll like to defend Lucky Star in that its magic comes from the fact that it fits entirely into the original Lucky Star manga. Konata is an otaku, and thus would definitely follow the Haruhiism craze. KyoAni has been praised for their faithfulness to the original medium and I must agree, and with Lucky Star they actually went a step further by adding in new elements that, for lack of a better phrase, kills two birds with one stone. I am very impressed with KyoAni, especially after joining this forum where I find out more and more about their genius every day. Quote:
I hated Meet the Spartans too; there wasn't any reason to pop in those references other than the sake of getting cheap laughs. As a result, I came to dislike those animes that utilize that style of humor often. I must emphasize, though, Lucky Star works precisely because the main character is meant to know those stuff. KyoAni is pretty lucky to get Lucky Star (did I just use a pun?) because the anime itself is a good promotional gimmick for other franchises. |
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2010-02-20, 12:10 | Link #31 | |
Sav'aaq!
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Hyrule
Age: 51
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2010-02-20, 12:18 | Link #32 | ||
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Sorry about that.
I became pretty interested in the business side of anime when I read at a few places about how the anime industry as a whole is, well, kind of suffering right now. Actually, here's one area where I will give Kyoto Animation full kudos; they make more money for each anime produced than any other animation studio out there. There's a lot to be learned, business-wise, from KyoAni's approach. Quote:
No, I don't think that Lucky Star is just a tool to promote Haruhi. Quote:
Anyway, you make a lot of good points. SHAFT made Bakemonogatari, by the way. If you liked that, you might like Sayonara, Zetsubou-Sensei .
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2010-02-20, 16:07 | Link #33 | ||
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Anyhow, I think you make many great points; but I feel your points are diluted by these two things: 1.) You keep insisting on bring up "hype" and what a certain segment of extremist Haruhi/kyoani fans think. That's nice and all, but often times it gets brought up more than the actual quality of the movie. Yes, there's nothing to talk about yet, but if you get swayed too much by stuff like this, how could you form a strong opinion? And you certainly won't be able to enjoy it. If that's your way, then so be it. 2.) This especially pertains to the second paragraph I quoted, but stop referring to the extremist Kyoani fans so much. I'm sure they exist somewhere, but hardly in this thread. How can you judge anything by the fringes? Basically, you spend too much time ranting about a vaguely defined group of people. Even a valid point loses its effectiveness when used too much. What is the relevance of it anyways? Some people lack objectivity, fine. So?
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2010-02-20, 21:55 | Link #34 |
Is this dangerous??
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Unknown Void, M'sia
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Imo, there are no Haruhi extremist here. Fanatics, yes but not extremist. Business is not my thing, so these talk about viral marketing confuse me a little , but lucky star as a promotional tools for Haruhi? Never thought about that... But then LS does shoutout for many anime... Not just Haruhi.
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2010-02-21, 11:09 | Link #36 | ||
Hare Hare Sera Fuku!
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Sunny Singapore
Age: 32
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I got interested in the anime industry itself after reading that it's actually not doing so well right now. It shocked me because I have hardcore anime fans as friends around me, and hang out with a bunch of anime fans from all over my country. I thought that the anime industry is booming. As it turns out, Japan don't typically accept anime as readily as other medias. Despite my poor business mind, I really would like to find out what's making the industry suffer, even with all the sales from merchandise and widespread coverage all over the world. I haven't been getting into the studios, instead focusing on the storylines and more importantly for me, the seiyuus. They play a big part in deciding what I watch because their voices are what I recognize when I re-entered the world of anime, so I follow Haruhi's seiyuus pretty closely (Lucky Star for the cast, and as a result, Bakemonogatari for Aya Hirano and Emiri Kato, Fairy Tail for Aya Hirano, Chu-Bra!! for Minorin, Azumanga Daioh for Yuki Matsuoka). As such, I think KyoAni did a brilliant move in keeping the seiyuus in the limelight. It's much more easier to create fans that way. Honestly, I still do not know the big names in animation studios. My knowledge is limited to KyoAni, and SHAFT (thanks again guys), and I'm not even sure if SHAFT can be considered a big time animation studio. Anyway I think I have gone off-topic and went into the anime industry instead of the Haruhi franchise, so I'll try to steer things back a little. In my opinion, the Haruhi franchise will definitely continue. However, as I learned that KyoAni will be going on with Season 2 of K-On!, it seems that the Disappearance movie will be the last of Haruhi we'll be seeing for a long, long time. They'll also try to milk the interest and discussion of the movie to the very last drop, so they can concentrate on other projects while keeping interest in Haruhi alive. The release of Vol. 10 will help tide fans over until they start re-animating Haruhi, and I'm pretty sure KyoAni is relieved and happy that Tanigawa finally is releasing his novel. Saves KyoAni the effort in coming up with more viral marketing. |
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2010-02-21, 12:11 | Link #37 |
Is this dangerous??
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Unknown Void, M'sia
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Ironically, one of the reason anime industry suffering is because of mass piracy. And internet. Some fan download the ep from the net and when official dvd was released, they dont want to buy it with excuses such as too expensive, already watched the ep. etc...
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2010-02-21, 17:19 | Link #38 | |
Helvetica Standard
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Vancouver, BC
Age: 41
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Studios should stop looking at 'piracy' as a loss, and think of people sharing and promoting their shows as an opportunity to gain more money from a much, much wider audience. Just look at how much things have changed in North America over the first decade of the internet. Anime has a way bigger audience than before. |
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2010-02-21, 17:41 | Link #39 |
Nyahahahaha♥
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Regardless of how you enforce laws and enable digital rights management, there will always be people out there who are not going to purchase your product and there will be people who will either watch at someone else's house or obtain a copy from someone who owns it. That's automatically someone that's not going to buy a product.
What fansubs have done is enable people outside of Japan to be able to find shows they otherwise would not have seen (like Haruhi) and support them by buying other merchandise. As I've posted before, I'm buying the R2 Haruhi DVDs, and have ordered the Gensou DVD, and the Disappearance/ENOZ CDs as well as the guidebook. I plan to get a R1 copy of the new episodes so I can understand the extra features and complete that set as well. If I had not been able to originally watch the fansubs, I wouldn't have purchased the limited edition R1 DVDs, much less what I've already bought, so there are people like me and TMISDR who would likely not have bought any merchandise if they hadn't been pirated from TV broadcasts. Also think about other merchandise such as figures and toys for other various shows. I know of several people on another board who buy tons of Japanese Kamen Rider and Super Sentai toys that would not have been possible unless fansubs were not available. Piracy isn't always a bad thing. Will there be people who won't buy anything, yes! But those people will always and have always existed. Enthrall people with a quality product and they will support the show regardless of cost. It's also a two-way street. If you really like a show, buy something for it, even if it's a single or a figure to show your support. Back on track, even though the summer season (July-September/October) would be the next Kadokawa anime for Kyoto Animation, I doubt that it'll be Haruhi due to the fact that there's another light novel series that's been claimed to be the next Haruhi by Kadokawa that I feel has a better chance of being animated instead. I wouldn't mind seeing Haruhi take a Winter 2011 slot due to the topic stories taking place in the Winter time period.
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2010-02-21, 17:49 | Link #40 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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