Ore no Imouto - Episode 7 Discussion / Poll

[Seiryuu]

Originally Posted by Himeji

Listen more closely. She only did that after her friend turned evil, and there was probably no chance of turning her back to normal again, so she didn't really have much of a choice.

But did she have to do so while SMILING? My point wasn't that she killed an innocent friend, my point was that she KILLED her friend(turned evil) while SMILING happily.

That was certainly not what the lyrics actually said, that was just Kuroneko's attempt at making fun of Kirino.

Actually, I think that was pretty close from what I heard. I heard something on the lines of shooting full-power and then saying to take it without running away. In other words, I'm going to shoot you with everything I got so don't you dare try to run. Anyway, my point was just that she's like Nanoha gone over the top. Nanoha had done some serious fights, but I don't think she ever leveled a city, while it looks like Meruru did.

BTW, the two of them didn't jokingly say that they were going to put the other into their stories as rape victims/sex slaves, they wrote serious, involved works and let the other read, in which they actually had a character representing the other being treated like that. It'd be one thing if a friend said he was writing a fanfic and was going to put me in with a role like that, it would be another thing entirely if a friend gave me a thick, finished book and let me be surprised to find my image like that.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I would stop trying to be an internet psychologist here. That theme is fairly obvious. But there's a difference between constantly alluring to it (When the show isn't going to do that) and alluring to it because it really is going to happen. Honestly I'd be more pissed off if this is a case of the former, rather than the latter. I don't think it's funny, I don't think it's cute, and it's definitely not normal, yet they seem to portray it as something acceptable to the viewers.

The fascination with incest in the Otaku fanbase is a little out of control. Sure, I don't care if there's a show here and there that explores this "forbidden love," but it seems to be more normal in anime to see incestual relationships than just sibling bonds. I find this laughable to say the least.

There's a lot that has already been said and I don't want to retread covered ground, but I did want to apologize if you were offended by my post. It wasn't intended as an attempt to "psychoanalyze" you or the thread, but simply to summarize what I perceived as being the primary arguments coupled with my own perception of the way the plot is developing.

That being said, despite your not finding it "funny, cute, or normal", it's perfectly acceptable to me if they cover this material in whatever way they choose, so although I can accept the fact that you don't like it, I don't feel that you've presented a persuasive argument as to why I should see things the way you do. Despite the explanations, I'm still at a loss to explain why you and some other posters can't sympathize with Kirino, as I find her portrayal rather sympathetic in the context of the starting point for their relationship and the fact that this season is only the first part of a show that will obviously continue on (whether in anime form or not). I don't agree that Kirino's remained static. I don't agree that there's been zero development. I don't agree that she's being portrayed as a "bitch" either. We're both watching the same show but perceiving it in different ways, so perhaps we have nothing in common in this area. Who knows...

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I will say this though... everything Kirino has done, and said; all of it; makes perfect sense and is understandable on her part... if she is romantically interested in her brother. In an odd sort of way, the best result for her character would be for her to be established has having such feelings for her brother. Because then everything this anime is doing fits nice and tidy, and the more questionable things Kirino does or says makes sense.

Even though I'm not a fan of "wincest", I now kind of hope that the anime goes that way (at least as it pertains to Kirino being established as having such feelings). Because otherwise Kirino's character is simply a mess, imo. This is not how a sister would try to build a closer platonic bond with her brother. A sister is not this tsundere towards a brother that she simply has normal familial affection for. But it's understandable that a sister might act this way towards her brother if she has romantic feelings for him...

Keep in mind that the model upon which she's basing her expectations for a sibling relationship is almost certainly in the eroge she plays, and those are not about building "closer platonic bonds". So whether she "actually" has romantic feelings for not, it shouldn't be surprising that she's using that as a model/template for her expectations and behaviour. You sort of have to take the show for granted when it claims that the two siblings have been totally estranged from each other thus far; they have to discover from scratch what such a relationship will look like in their case (and given that they're starting now while their hormones are already raging, that interferes).

I've said before that the development of the relationship in this story would be a lot more obvious if Kirino and Kyousuke had been literally living apart all these years, because then the "estrangement" would be even more obvious. Here they're more like "strangers living under the same roof", but people are expecting them to transition into normal siblings. I don't think it's quite that easy; my own relationship with my sisters is only because I spent a lot of time with them while growing up and we did almost everything together. Without that...?

[Hooves]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

While I wrote that much of this show reminds me of The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, I also feel that it's the opposite of that anime in one key way.

My feeling with Haruhi's anime (and the novel source material itself) is that the key characters in them develop nicely and solidly over time, but most of the SOS Brigade relationship dynamics develop at a snail pace, if at all (Yuki, and her relationships with Haruhi and Kyon, being a key exception here).

In other words, while there is a nuanced but definite change in both Haruhi and Kyon, I don't get a sense that this is causing them to grow closer together (as it arguably should).

I have to agree with this big time, Haruhi and Kyon seem to not be developing their relationships even further, just "some" scenes that might show it. But its not progressing in anyway that makes the anime interesting. It just seems that the relationships with the characters in this anime don't change in any manner.

With Ore no Imouto (though I admit I haven't read the source material for this) I get the sense that numerous relationship dynamics are developing quite nicely, actually, but the characters themselves feel very static.

In other words, I certainly do see where Kyousuke and Kirino are becoming much closer to each other, and I also see good relationship development between Kyousuke and almost every other central character in this anime. In fairness, that's very impressive for seven episodes in.

However, Kirino doesn't strike me as inherently nicer or friendlier or even just more mellowed out than she was at episode one. So, actually, that does beg the question of "Why is Kyousuke going above and beyond for her?". Unless the guy is a simple masochist, it's becoming hard to fathom why he's doing this.

If Kirino was becoming a bit nicer, and showing more of a softer side, I could get it.

Or if we as the audience was let in on some past event where Kyousuke horribly wronged his sister, we'd understand his guilt and desire to make up for it.

But as is, I am finding it hard to understand why Kyousuke is sacrificing so much for his sister.

That makes you wonder why in the very 1st episode why Kyousuke even had a dream about his sister in the very start.. It could show that Kyousuke is somewhat guilty of abandoning Kirino (or causing something for that event to occur between them) that dream is showing him that he should make up with Kirino atleast. Now this opens up 3 ideas in my mind. But all these theories resort to episode 1 for some reason.

Theory #1
Kyousuke as you said, might feel guilty and wants to make up with Kirino about the incident, after finding out about her otakuness. He found a way to get this to happen. By simply helping Kirino about between her struggle as a Idol, and as an Otaku, Kyousuke thinks that he can make up with what happened in the past by helping her by "life counseling" also the fact that he doesn't even know much about HIS OWN SISTER! That could be something that drives him on. He probably wants to know more about Kirino in general, and tagging along with her will help him find a way to apologize for the past.

Theory #2
Being the big brother of the house, Kyousuke might have realized that it was just wrong that an Otaku such as her sister is said to be an outcast of society. Hearing about that, makes him want to help her struggle against this, by getting people who argue against Kirino about these things to understand the Otaku side, and it not being all that bad. Making Kirino's life more easier, and Kyousuke can get back to his own dull life without any worries about the tension between him and Kirno.

Theory #3
He might have grown the Kyon trait of the fact if he is separated from Kirino, that would lead him back to his dull, boring, normal life. Ever since finding the eroge game, and finding out that his sister is an otaku. Means that something interesting has come to his life atleast, and that their is someone else other then Manami that will keep him busy during his life.

[DJ Trouble]

Wasn't that Ayase in his dream?

[Hooves]

Originally Posted by DJ Trouble

Wasn't that Ayase in his dream?

No, it was a re-modeled Kirino with black hair. By that time, Kyousuke dint even know about Ayase enough to be in his dreams. He also said "There is no way my Sister can be this cute!" meaning that dream was teasing him.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Seitsuki

Wait whaat? Okay lets recap:

Ep1- Kyousuke gets asked for life counselling. Hooray. Maybe they don't hate each other?

Ep2- Kirino takes his advice, which is a step above ignoring him. Maybe. It's also shown she's starting to rely on him, ie *trust* him.

Ep3- First heartfelt discussion they have. And as you said, Kirino actually thanks him. Hooray!

Ep4- Well i guess this ep doesn't focus on the whole KiriKyou thing very much.

Ep5- By this point Kirino is actually able to open her heart to Kyousuke. He on his part is able to understand and empathise. No difference yet?

Ep6- Despite the Manami-centricness you can see that Kirino actually *cares* that Kyousuke isn't home. Hell, she might even miss him.

Ep7- Alright, "gift from the one you love"? "overnight stay in a hotel?" How is this NOT development from them NOT TALKING TO EACH OTHER?

? I don't see what more development happened after your remarks in episode 3. The development in 6 is meaningless unless they're venturing into incest territory. Much like what triple_r pointed out, her actions are actually a mess if they don't do incest. So sure, maybe, just maybe I can accept that there's been further development, IF and ONLY IF this anime is progressing to a story about incest. Otherwise it has all been meaningless, and her actions make no sense.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

There's a lot that has already been said and I don't want to retread covered ground, but I did want to apologize if you were offended by my post. It wasn't intended as an attempt to "psychoanalyze" you or the thread, but simply to summarize what I perceived as being the primary arguments coupled with my own perception of the way the plot is developing.

No worries, I am not offended. I don't take the internet very seriously . My posting style seems to make people think that I am always really angry for some reason . Anyhow I understand what you're saying.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

That being said, despite your not finding it "funny, cute, or normal", it's perfectly acceptable to me if they cover this material in whatever way they choose, so although I can accept the fact that you don't like it, I don't feel that you've presented a persuasive argument as to why I should see things the way you do. Despite the explanations, I'm still at a loss to explain why you and some other posters can't sympathize with Kirino, as I find her portrayal rather sympathetic in the context of the starting point for their relationship and the fact that this season is only the first part of a show that will obviously continue on (whether in anime form or not). I don't agree that Kirino's remained static. I don't agree that there's been zero development. I don't agree that she's being portrayed as a "bitch" either. We're both watching the same show but perceiving it in different ways, so perhaps we have nothing in common in this area. Who knows...

Perhaps I am still not convinced that this show is going to be about incest, so I view a lot of the so called development that others have pointed to be useless fluff that bears no importance to the anime's plot unless they actually do venture down that route. I don't find anything particularly wrong with an incest anime itself, but I do find it a bit jarring that so many animes today seem to use this theme all the time instead of actually just using the theme of sibling bonds that are not between two sisters (You see this one quite a bit), but rather 2 brothers or brother and sister (Though often they are not blood related).

I suppose my main issue with Kirino is that as someone I know pointed out, she's been too much tsun and not enough dere. There's no pay off for Kyousuke. Kyousuke has been shown to be some sort of saint, where he easily tossed away his good name in front of his father (Well not sure he had one to begin with here) and Kirino's friend. We got a short "thank you," but then she goes back to the way she normally treats her brother. That's why people call her static. Sure supposedly "character development moments" have occurred, but they have not shown to have a significant impact on her character or her actions towards her brother. Until we see any difference, it's as if the show has not progressed since episode 1 or 2 (Unless they go down the incest route...).

[HayashiTakara]

Don't some stop to think that Kirino acts the way she does to Kyousuke because it's the only way she knows how to get him to be with her? Everything is an obvious excuse just to get him to be with her. Just look at episode 6, a day without Kyousuke she becomes annoyed, flustered and lonely.

She takes every opportune reason to get him to do stuff with her.

[Lunar Archivist]

Originally Posted by Seitsuki

And since when has Kirino actually made Kyousuke do anything really?

What about when she angrily stared at him in Episode 5 and pretty much silently demanded he fix her friendship with Ayase?

Originally Posted by Seitsuki

Oh for crying.. Alright, again: she's gone from ignoring him to *trying to go on a date with him*. No bloody change? I mean, seriously?

She went from ignoring him to bossing him around, forcing him to play eroge. verbally abusing him on a date, having him take the blame for her fangirl excesses, and pumping him for cash. You call that an improvement? It's the kind I can do without, thanks.

And 300 bucks for a pair of earrings? That's a lot of scratch.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

As I explained to someone recently, I think the appeal in a tsundere heroine is in what you notice beneath the surface (which will eventually rise to the surface over the course of the story), so people who are focused on Kirino's bitchiness re: Kyousuke aren't seeing her in exactly the same way he does. Those brief moments where her true feelings are revealed aren't enough, in their minds, to make up for it. In some cases because they feel Kyousuke has "better options".

Naru Narusegawa and Motoko Aoyama were tsundere done right. Yeah, they beat up on Keitaro Urashima mercilessly, but they let enough humanity seep through that you could relate to them. Kirino is pretty much always in bitch mode.

As an example: Naru and Keitaro probably made the worst first impressions you could possibly make on each other, but when she saw that he was having a positive effect on Shinobu while maintaining the lie that he was at Todai, she softened up enough to keep his secret and not rat him out to the others. That didn't mean she thought he was any less of a pervert, let go of her anger completely, or beat him up, but she looked beyond her rage.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

However, Kirino doesn't strike me as inherently nicer or friendlier or even just more mellowed out than she was at episode one. So, actually, that does beg the question of "Why is Kyousuke going above and beyond for her?". Unless the guy is a simple masochist, it's becoming hard to fathom why he's doing this.

If Kirino was becoming a bit nicer, and showing more of a softer side, I could get it.

Or if we as the audience was let in on some past event where Kyousuke horribly wronged his sister, we'd understand his guilt and desire to make up for it.

But as is, I am finding it hard to understand why Kyousuke is sacrificing so much for his sister.

This. Exactly this.

Originally Posted by Seiryuu

But did she have to do so while SMILING? My point wasn't that she killed an innocent friend, my point was that she KILLED her friend(turned evil) while SMILING happily.

Yeah, that's a problem. It's the spirit of true magical girl anime that you try and save your face-heel turn friend no matter how painful it is and never ever give up on them.

[Triple_R]

I have to say that I'm more or less on the same page as Reckoner is.

"Where's the pay off (for Kyousuke)?" is precisely what I'm wondering too.

Anyway, I don't want to belabor the same arguments too much, so I'll respond to Hooves...

Originally Posted by Hooves

I have to agree with this big time, Haruhi and Kyon seem to not be developing their relationships even further, just "some" scenes that might show it. But its not progressing in anyway that makes the anime interesting. It just seems that the relationships with the characters in this anime don't change in any manner.

Glad we see eye-to-eye on this. Since this is not Haruhi's forum, though, I'll leave this part of our discussion here.

That makes you wonder why in the very 1st episode why Kyousuke even had a dream about his sister in the very start.. It could show that Kyousuke is somewhat guilty of abandoning Kirino (or causing something for that event to occur between them) that dream is showing him that he should make up with Kirino atleast. Now this opens up 3 ideas in my mind. But all these theories resort to episode 1 for some reason.

Theory #1
Kyousuke as you said, might feel guilty and wants to make up with Kirino about the incident, after finding out about her otakuness. He found a way to get this to happen. By simply helping Kirino about between her struggle as a Idol, and as an Otaku, Kyousuke thinks that he can make up with what happened in the past by helping her by "life counseling" also the fact that he doesn't even know much about HIS OWN SISTER! That could be something that drives him on. He probably wants to know more about Kirino in general, and tagging along with her will help him find a way to apologize for the past.

Theory #2
Being the big brother of the house, Kyousuke might have realized that it was just wrong that an Otaku such as her sister is said to be an outcast of society. Hearing about that, makes him want to help her struggle against this, by getting people who argue against Kirino about these things to understand the Otaku side, and it not being all that bad. Making Kirino's life more easier, and Kyousuke can get back to his own dull life without any worries about the tension between him and Kirno.

Theory #3
He might have grown the Kyon trait of the fact if he is separated from Kirino, that would lead him back to his dull, boring, normal life. Ever since finding the eroge game, and finding out that his sister is an otaku. Means that something interesting has come to his life atleast, and that their is someone else other then Manami that will keep him busy during his life.

Your first two theories are good ones, I'll admit. I myself got a sense of Kyousuke doing this for his sister partly out of a general sense of social justice for otakus, myself. That theory (Theory #2) worked for the first few episodes. But managing his sister's friendship with a fellow otaku, and certainly going out with his sister on a thinly veiled date, are not really social justice issues. So Theory #2 works, but only up to a point.

Theory #3... might be what the anime is aiming for, and if so, then so be it. I really don't like the idea of "Being utterly whipped by my sister = Exciting life!", but to each their own. Haruhi has Kyon utterly whipped too, but at least he's clearly attracted to her physically, imo.

[DJ Trouble]

Originally Posted by Hooves

No, it was a re-modeled Kirino with black hair. By that time, Kyousuke dint even know about Ayase enough to be in his dreams. He also said "There is no way my Sister can be this cute!" meaning that dream was teasing him.

Like I said, wasn't it Ayase? xD But seriously, I don't understand why you'd try to apply enough logic to dreams to say that there's no way it was Ayase. It's entirely possible he was having a dream where Ayase was his sister. It's not like dreams have to make sense. I do think the dream was teasing him, though.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

? I don't see what more development happened after your remarks in episode 3. The development in 6 is meaningless unless they're venturing into incest territory. Much like what triple_r pointed out, her actions are actually a mess if they don't do incest. So sure, maybe, just maybe I can accept that there's been further development, IF and ONLY IF this anime is progressing to a story about incest. Otherwise it has all been meaningless, and her actions make no sense.

What? Why would them having a closer relationship only make sense if the story is moving towards an incest end? Is sex the only thing important in a relationship to you? Is it impossible for a brother and sister to love each other without it being incest? The rest of your post doesn't make it seem like that's what you think, so then it's just you ignoring the differences in how their interactions have changed. I still don't think this story is going the incest route, but that doesn't mean their relationship isn't developing.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I suppose my main issue with Kirino is that as someone I know pointed out, she's been too much tsun and not enough dere. There's no pay off for Kyousuke. Kyousuke has been shown to be some sort of saint, where he easily tossed away his good name in front of his father (Well not sure he had one to begin with here) and Kirino's friend. We got a short "thank you," but then she goes back to the way she normally treats her brother. That's why people call her static. Sure supposedly "character development moments" have occurred, but they have not shown to have a significant impact on her character or her actions towards her brother. Until we see any difference, it's as if the show has not progressed since episode 1 or 2 (Unless they go down the incest route...).

Maybe we're watching different anime, but Kyousuke doesn't seem to think he's not getting enough for his efforts. Maybe I'm selectively forgetting a scene, but has he ever stated that he wishes his sister would do more for him in return for the effort he's put it in?

Kyousuke is definitely not any kind of saint. He's not losing anything by tossing away his "good name" in front of his father or Ayase because neither his father nor Ayase give two craps about what he does, and he's obviously not interested in what they think. He, of his own volition, threatened to beat his father up. Am I supposed to think that he's making some kind of noble sacrifice by pretending to be a pervert. And the fact that he's pretending is also important, because bother his father and Ayase are on to that fact, saving any potential "good name" that could have been ruined.

I'm not going to list a bunch of examples, but I'll say that the very fact that they're spending time together without Kirino wearing a permascowl on her face shows that their relationship is improving.

Originally Posted by Lunar Archivist

What about when she angrily stared at him in Episode 5 and pretty much silently demanded he fix her friendship with Ayase?

Staring doesn't amount to much more than pleading for help from a tsundere. And weren't tears welling up in her eyes? That's not forcing Kyousuke to do anything.

Originally Posted by Lunar Archivist

She went from ignoring him to bossing him around, forcing him to play eroge. verbally abusing him on a date, having him take the blame for her fangirl excesses, and pumping him for cash. You call that an improvement? It's the kind I can do without, thanks.

And 300 bucks for a pair of earrings? That's a lot of scratch.

She didn't pump him for cash. Kirino obviously has way more money than Kyousuke does. (I was actually surprised that Kyousuke had that 180k on him.) She doesn't need or want his money. What she wanted was for him to buy her a present in celebration of their Christmas date, without having to actually come out and say "Buy me a present for our Christmas date."

[Guardian Enzo]

I'm afraid I don't really see the improvement in Kirino's treatment of Kyousuke either. Was it the kick in the balls, or perhaps asking him to allow himself to be hit by a car? Or was it forcing him to spend money on a useless gift for her despite the fact that she's loaded and he doesn't work? Maybe verbally abusing him to her friends behind his back and to his face?

Believe it or not, I consider myself a moderate on Kirino. I do realize she isn't set up to be an especially likable character, though I also think it poses a risk to the series if she doesn't evolve and grow a little. I also think Kyou is an enabler big-time. I guess I see it as "Give a girl help and she'll be happy for a day, teach her to fish for help and she'll be happy for a lifetime". By continuing to bail Kirino out of jams and be her lackey (and life counselor, and houseboy) without extracting any change in behavior from her he allows her to think the way she behaves is acceptable. I don't think it comes from secret feelings of incest or anything of the sort (I certainly hope not, and if anyone does harbor those feelings I think it's Kirino) - I just think Kyousuke is used to being taken for granted and he's come to accept being treated as an inferior. He's certainly as much the problem here as she is - he just happens to be a much better person.

I admire the ability of this show to get people so worked up - it's really well written and knows how to dance the tightrope between celebration of the otaku lifestyle and hard-edged self-parody. I don't know what's going to happen next and I enjoy that - not every series has the capacity to surprise.

[relentlessflame]

At this point, I don't think this issue of whether Kirino has shown enough of her "deredere" side towards Kyousuke to qualify as character development is able to be resolved. It seems pretty clear that some people view the story and think yes, and other people view the same story and think no. It appears to mostly depend on whether you are measuring her behaviour more by outward signs or by suggestive hints. It may also depend in part on your predisposition towards the tsundere archetype in general. We can probably keep debating this point ad nauseum (and it is important), but I doubt we'll be able to reach a compromise. I would say that both perspectives on Kirino are valid, and it depends on your personal point of view.

(I'll admit that I personally have become a big fan of tsundere characters in eroge over the last few years, so Kirino's behaviour barely phases me -- I look more at the subtle hints of what lies beneath the surface than anything she actually says or does since I've seen this same character development pattern play out countless times by now. So I suppose I'm naturally predisposed to emphasize the positive, even in the face of clearly-visible negatives.)

[Hoodspirit]

I am a bit suprised that Kirino gets relativly strong negative emotions from many viewers of this show, that they even go so far to remark her with false accusation to make her look worse than she actually is. Often claiming she is "spoiled" among other things. English is not my native language but from what I know Kirino learns for good result in school with which she buys freedom from her parents. Like to work as model and spend the earned money on fashion. Did not see a scene where she gets spoiled. She is portrayed as talented and gifted but not to an extend where she doesn't have to put effort into the things she does.
I do understand that not everyone is going to like every character, even hating them, but trying to denounce a fictional character is really going overboard <.<;

Personally I like this show, and it is the only one of the season which I still follow.
It has a few themes it focuses on which I am interested in. Namely being the seperation of 2D and 3D, opening up to an unknown culture, social conflicts of a minority and of course the interaction between the characters and doing these things without too much lecturing on either side.
I am fine with the character progressions at the pace they having currently. It is much easier to get into the otaku subculture or starting a new friendship than opening up to someone after years of ignoring. There is no reason to rush things. The current interaction between them is working after all. Kureneko and Kirino have their heated arguments, Saroi has her role of moderator, Ayase has her Kirino back and Kyousuke has found a role to get along with his sister and new friends. Rushing things might break some connections, so they going to change slowly and live with some annoyance at the moment. Kirino and Kureneko cannot display normal friends feelings yet, Saori and Kyousuke cannot put the focus on their own problems within the group yet, Ayase still learning how to accept the new part of Kirino without having to keep up the lie of the evil brother.
There had been scenes where the characters show their progress towards the others behind these masks of the first impression, and there will surely be more.

I am positivly surprised how well and mature the story is, regarding the age of the protoganists. I hope to see/read/hear more of the author again on a future project.

People who think Kirino really wants to let Kyousuke get hit by a dump truck, might want to rewatch how these silblings have been dealing with each other in previous episodes <.<;
Also if the story should get into a real incest route, I would recommend that some might want to check incest laws in other countries than your own and some brief summaries why these countries choosed to have it that way. It might hold some surprises for a few people.

[Gohan78]

My problem with this show is that the relationship between the siblings is too unbalanced. Kirino gest all the good parts while Kyousuke gets all the bad parts.
I usually try to put myself into the main character's shoes, therefore I rage at Kyousuke for being such a doormat to his sister. If only he showed a bit more of resistance, if he somehow returned her insults I would feel better. I dislike that Kirino is allowed to be all bitchy and selfish and never gets any comeuppance. It's like the author is telling me that the guy is supposed to just shut up and obey to the girl.
I don't pretend that Kirino suddenly becomes a Manami but at least Kyousuke should react more strongly towards her insults and physical abuse.
Kyosuke got a punch to the face for her, he ruined his chances with Ayase for her, he learned to play eroge for her, he accompanied her to the offline meeting, to the Comiket and even bought her a present. What did he got for all his efforts? A freaking "Arigato, Aniki". Once. That's too little to justify Kyousuke's behaviour. Heck, even a man in love would rarely go to such lenghts for the girl he loves. And here we are supposed to believe that he is willing to do all of this for a sister who doesn't show him the tiniest sign of appreciation.
I would enjoy this show more if Kyousuke was a bit of a jerk towards Kirino, instead he is always gentle but his kindness is repayed with insults and scorn. This becomes majorly frustrating after a while. :-(

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Seitsuki

Wait whaat? Okay lets recap

Key word: dynamics.
The fact they are doing stuff together doesn't always mean anything. See romance show with "flags everywhere" but not always an indication of a change after X-Y ? That's how I see here.
Whereas they definitely stepped out from the "cold war" era, I see no reason to think Kirino "warmed" up considering her behavior. If you call that development, please be my guest, but I see just a change of dynamics, which doesn't mean she gives a "more" considerate approach towards him.

The most important point you seem to have overlooked: Kirino never forced any of this on Kyousuke. When Kyousuke discovered Kirino's hobby, he was the one in a position of power. Kyousuke was the one who started it all: saying he sympathised, that he would help her keep it a secret etc.

Hence I said: takes everything from granted. You aren't going to tell me she didn't force him for the earrings or his support when Ayase snapped, correct?
Kyousuke may refuse, but what will he have then? Kirino in an atrocious mood, which is why he has to abide. Meanwhile, Kirino ignored completely Kyousuke's point (the: why would I buy you something out of the blue?) and just pressed with something "within" his budget.

Oh for crying.. Alright, again: she's gone from ignoring him to *trying to go on a date with him*. No bloody change? I mean, seriously?

Did I mention the development between "before" and "after" the eroge exposure incident? Not at all. I compared how she considers Kyousuke after the whole deal and up to now, which is to say: there are nearly no change at all.

Originally Posted by Hoodspirit

Did not see a scene where she gets spoiled. She is portrayed as talented and gifted but not to an extend where she doesn't have to put effort into the things she does.
I do understand that not everyone is going to like every character, even hating them, but trying to denounce a fictional character is really going overboard <.<;

You are going to tell me she is not spoiled by Kyousuke's benevolence and support?
It seems you didn't get the context at all either: it is all about the relationship between Kyousuke and Kirino. She takes everything from Kyousuke as granted. if that isn't a spoiled attitude, then enlight me.

People who think Kirino really wants to let Kyousuke get hit by a dump truck, might want to rewatch how these silblings have been dealing with each other in previous episodes <.<;

Of course no one would expect she is serious. But do you think it is a considerate way to say that to someone?
Then what? I can start saying that to my cousins, friends and parents while we are it?
It isn't an issue about first degree taken as it is or not. it is an issue of actual demeanor and so forth.

[MeoTwister5]

Given that the discussion is at the point, I think I just have to ask this question outright: Considering that a lot of those possessing complaints about Kirino are not LN readers and that a lot of those who defend her character seem to have knowledge of the LN and the story, is there simply something in the LN that the rest of us non-LN readers do not know that would somehow cause shifting in opinions? As it stands I really get the suspicion that if the insinuation that people who don't like her is because "they just don't get it" as a result of not "knowing the material", then there's an unfair divide that the anime simply isn't properly bridging to put LN readers and anime-only viewers on equal terms.

I'm personally still neutral on her. I don't hate her or find her obnoxious, but I don't exactly appreciate her personality nor find her acts really justifiable. The bigger question for me is still a matter of why, and thus a matter of reason. I still want my background and my context. At half the season in, I prefer that they start portraying the background and pasts of the still strained relationship between the two.

If there's a reason that she still treats him like crap, even if I think she's becoming a slightly nicer person to him at a slow pace, then give it to me. Show me why. Tell me why. All I really want is a freaking reason. I don't care whether it's a good reason or unreasonable, because that can be a matter of opinion, but give me something that will make me go "so that's why they were never really on good terms."

This is, for me, all that is still needed to fully comprehend the dynamic between the two. In trying to understand human personality, there is always a reason for something, and the show simply cannot get away from just plainly showing that Kirino is who she is for no reason whatsoever. Even if this is fiction, there was something that made her into someone with a remaining dislike for her brother. Anything less is ridiculous.

[Saturn Beaver]

Originally Posted by Hooves

No, it was a re-modeled Kirino with black hair. By that time, Kyousuke dint even know about Ayase enough to be in his dreams. He also said "There is no way my Sister can be this cute!" meaning that dream was teasing him.

Taking a Freudian analysis of it, surely that suggests that Kyousuke is attracted to younger girls with black hair, which is why Manami never registers to her as a possible romantic interest. Ayase and Kuroneko, watch out!

Originally Posted by DJ Trouble

What? Why would them having a closer relationship only make sense if the story is moving towards an incest end? Is sex the only thing important in a relationship to you? Is it impossible for a brother and sister to love each other without it being incest? The rest of your post doesn't make it seem like that's what you think, so then it's just you ignoring the differences in how their interactions have changed. I still don't think this story is going the incest route, but that doesn't mean their relationship isn't developing.

I get what you're saying here, it's less of a problem with me if it's pretty much the original premise like in Yosuga no Sora but I too am irked that every sibling relationship has to be incest. Pretty much the same way that two people with the same gender can't be best friends without crying of yaoi/yuri undertones, or how when two character of different sex make even the slightest of interaction there's people shipping them already. But I digress.

The problem here, is that I agree with the theory that Kirino is basing her interaction with his brother on the eroge that she usually plays. Sure, originally she may have no romantic interests whatsoever, but well, it is eroge. Just like things started not with a love in the first sight, as things go along romantic feelings will start to crop up. Add that with the fact that she's on the age where she's having raging hormones, Kirino will undoubtedly be feeling pretty confused. Still, I hope she realizes it later and it won't end up on incest. One thing for sure though, whatever it may be it's truly one-sided, sure it's strange that Kyou is going over backwards to satisfy Kirino but it's much less likely to be motivated by romantic purposes.

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Believe it or not, I consider myself a moderate on Kirino. I do realize she isn't set up to be an especially likable character, though I also think it poses a risk to the series if she doesn't evolve and grow a little. I also think Kyou is an enabler big-time. I guess I see it as "Give a girl help and she'll be happy for a day, teach her to fish for help and she'll be happy for a lifetime". By continuing to bail Kirino out of jams and be her lackey (and life counselor, and houseboy) without extracting any change in behavior from her he allows her to think the way she behaves is acceptable. I don't think it comes from secret feelings of incest or anything of the sort (I certainly hope not, and if anyone does harbor those feelings I think it's Kirino) - I just think Kyousuke is used to being taken for granted and he's come to accept being treated as an inferior. He's certainly as much the problem here as she is - he just happens to be a much better person.

I admire the ability of this show to get people so worked up - it's really well written and knows how to dance the tightrope between celebration of the otaku lifestyle and hard-edged self-parody. I don't know what's going to happen next and I enjoy that - not every series has the capacity to surprise.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I have to say that I'm more or less on the same page as Reckoner is.

"Where's the pay off (for Kyousuke)?" is precisely what I'm wondering too.

Like relentlessflame said, at this point it's clear that Kirino is a tsundere, and even though the general things Kirino do towards Kyousuke remains the same, I can see that there's few things to show that she begin to care for him slightly. In the end, it's up to us to see whether that small thing is enough or not. Some may be fine with it, but for me and perhaps some others, it's not nearly enough. If she kicked him in the balls at the beginning and now, even though at the beginning she does that because she hates him and now she begin to secretly cares, for me it's still a kick in the balls. Sometimes, even with that when you can clearly see the change of behavior then and now (for example, the androphobic Inami from Working!!) it's easier for me to accept that, which for me isn't the case here.

And well, for that then perhaps I should be more patient. After all, Kirino's not the first selfish and annoying main character I've seen. There's Suzumiya Haruhi and Dr. House, for example. The difference is, first of all, unlike Kirino part of the reason for them to act that way (crowded baseball stadium, bum leg) is already explained so it's easier to symphatize with them. But okay, maybe they're saving that for later and I need to be patient, again. However, the thing that bewilders me most is why Kyousuke is fine with that behavior.

Like Guardian Enzo said, Kyousuke is being too much of an enabler; I want him to teach her how to fish rather than always trying to catch a bigger fish that's more difficult to catch. But fine, maybe that's where Kyousuke and I differ, and I have to learn to accept that. He may be ultimately fine with Kirino's antics even though it bothers him, for some reason. And that's the main question, for what reason?

For those two examples above, Kyon and Wilson has perfectly good reasons; fate of the multiverse and people lives respectively hangs on the balance, and that's why they accept them. What's more, Kyon is attracted to Haruhi and House is Wilson’s best friend, and they also secretly enjoy the excitement they bring to their lives. Yet for Kyousuke, I can’t see why yet. Hooves’ gave three good possible reasons that may be true, although I got a bit of problem with the third one. From the last episode, I never see Kyousuke more relaxed than at ease than he is at the calm Manami’s house. Sure, other people may find it boring, but for Kyousuke it seems to be that he’s perfectly fine with it, and that’s what he wants.

[Hoodspirit]

@Gohan78
There are people who interact with each other, without expecting a reward, and they are not that uncommon. As for why he takes everything Kirino throws at him, I'ld say he does it because he finds a liking to this new life and maybe out of fear. Kirino is his bond to this new exciting life. he has fun with her and his new friends. The anime has less time for details and presents not everything as well as the novel. One of the facts is that Kyousuke lies to himself, and when he does so, he also lies to the audience. He declines obvious progress, or ignores some facts. Pretty much the same what Ayase is doing, shifting the problem to keep the known situation from before any incident alive.
Kyousuke also has some clishee-like traits of a man, for example rather fighting danger for someone (step up agains his father) than confronting a talk with a woman.
With Kyousukes character growth he tries to resist more and more, but his bluffs get counter-bluffed by a strong minded Kirino (or stubborn 14 year old girl). Their interaction works for the moment, and so they stick to it.
Also Kyousuke is the narrator and we have no insight into any other minds and only guess because of their actions and kyousukes descriptions. Kirino might be able to drop her mask to not let go of Kyousuke. Or she might not and is just a sadist. Either way, just because she is the main heroine, she does not have to be the likable girl some people demand her to be.
It is not the intention of the author to make boys be the sandbag of every girl, there are stronger mind men in the series, like kyousukes father. Kyousuke is only 17 year old and he still grows as a man and how to deal with girls.

@Klashikari
I would not say she always depends on him. Kyousuke is the first one to take the initiative with the father-incident. She did not force him to do so, in fact she doesn't even know what he is going to do.
After this she demands only 2 times his support. both times with Ayase, and the second one only after her own action failed. 2 times in years she is depending on her brother is too much? <.<
If you state a similair sentence to your friends/family it will have no consequence and will be seen as teasing or a joke. If your personalty prevents you from making such statements, it is perfectly fine, just don't assume all others will act the same.

@MeoTwister5 PM sent for your question who contain spoilers as answer.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Given that the discussion is at the point, I think I just have to ask this question outright: Considering that a lot of those possessing complaints about Kirino are not LN readers and that a lot of those who defend her character seem to have knowledge of the LN and the story, is there simply something in the LN that the rest of us non-LN readers do not know that would somehow cause shifting in opinions? As it stands I really get the suspicion that if the insinuation that people who don't like her is because "they just don't get it" as a result of not "knowing the material", then there's an unfair divide that the anime simply isn't properly bridging to put LN readers and anime-only viewers on equal terms.

I think it's going to depend on the reader/viewer. I know people who've read it and are quite neutral or even positive about Kirino. Personally, I've only read two volumes of the novel (I won't say which ones), and Kirino pissed me off in both of them. It may have something to do with relationships I have in real life with my own family, but I can tell you that, for the ones who EXPECT me to help them simply because we're blood related, I only do it because we are blood related. For those who ask nicely and within reason, I'm quite happy to do as they ask and even what they don't ask, if I know it'll help them or make them happy.

Hence, I don't really get what Kyousuke's thinking. But I'll see this through to the end, even if I don't finish reading the novels myself...

[Saturn Beaver]

Originally Posted by Hoodspirit

@Gohan78
There are people who interact with each other, without expecting a reward, and they are not that uncommon.

Well, that's possible, but the problem is that so far all the problems he's facing are Kirino-centric. Take for example Touma from Index, who also is a bit of a martyr and the way he went out of his way to help people he barely knew are beyond common sense. Yet, we see that this is his personality, and whoever asks for his help, be it Index, Stiyl, Mikoto or whoever, he'll always comply. Even if you find that unreasonable, at least it's consistent.

The problem here is that there's always one common source when he went out of his way to help, which is Kirino. Surely we can't make that conclusion based on just one sample. Sure, he helps Manami last episode, but it's a reasonable request coming from a childhood friend in need who asks him nicely, most people would do the same thing.

In short, while that possibility isn't yet proven to be wrong, there's not enough evidence to make that certain either. In fact, because it's always directed towards Kirino opens the possibility that he only act that way to Kirino, for reason we don't know yet.

Originally Posted by Hoodspirit

As for why he takes everything Kirino throws at him, I'ld say he does it because he finds a liking to this new life and maybe out of fear. Kirino is his bond to this new exciting life. he has fun with her and his new friends. The anime has less time for details and presents not everything as well as the novel. One of the facts is that Kyousuke lies to himself, and when he does so, he also lies to the audience. He declines obvious progress, or ignores some facts. Pretty much the same what Ayase is doing, shifting the problem to keep the known situation from before any incident alive.

That's also a possibility, one that may be more obvious in the LN than in the anime. The problem is, if that's true, as an anime-only watcher I expect the anime to be able to convey such important thing on its own more clearly, even if he's lying about it. Perhaps my bias is clouding me, but the way I see it he always do all those things begrudgingly and I don't see him secretly enjoying this new life. Maybe he's tolerate it because his relationship with his sister is improving, but I don't see him enjoying the way she's treating him.

Originally Posted by Hoodspirit

@Klashikari
I would not say she always depends on him. Kyousuke is the first one to take the initiative with the father-incident. She did not force him to do so, in fact she doesn't even know what he is going to do.
After this she demands only 2 times his support. both times with Ayase, and the second one only after her own action failed. 2 times in years she is depending on her brother is too much? <.<

I can say that she's depending him much more than that, but that's not the point. The point is, like Klashikari said, not only does she takes it for granted, she expects such behavior from his brother. It'll perhaps be fine if she asks nicely and properly thanks him afterward, but all I can see from her are demands and angry glare, with her saying thank you just once compared to all those time she verbally abuses her.

Sure, you can say that that's how tsundere is, she secretly is grateful for him deep down inside. Still, first of all, we have no way of knowing for sure whether Kyousuke knows this, there's never an understanding smile, just sighs and frowns from him. Also, in general, sometimes you do need to express such things, especially towards someone you want to patch up a relationship with. A confirmation will always help, after all.

Originally Posted by Hoodspirit

If you state a similair sentence to your friends/family it will have no consequence and will be seen as teasing or a joke. If your personalty prevents you from making such statements, it is perfectly fine, just don't assume all others will act the same.

Even if it's a joke, that doesn't change the fact that those words can hurt if used carelessly like that. Also, that kind of jokes are only used for close friends of family that knows you're just joking even if you don't say so. The two of them are just renewing their relationship, each still learning what the other really like, and assuming things like that are not good for the budding relationship.

But what's worse is that there's no follow-up from Kirino for that. I don't recall her saying "I'm just kidding, you dumbass" (sometimes you still need to say this even to close friends) which, combines with her cold behavior, suggests that she may be serious. Consider also the same case with how she ditches Kuro and Saori when she met Ayase, and even badmouths them. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't remember seeing Kirino properly apologizes for them, it's Kyousuke again who does that. And sure, they do understand, but they're visibly hurt and you still need to apologize properly for things like that.