Penguin Drum - Episode 22 Discussion / Poll

[vansonbee]

Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako

This is a series that featured penguins and squid doing battle in the middle of a subway car. You're just now noticing how ridiculous it is?

What penguins are you referring too?

[Forsaken_Infinity]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

No actually I disagree, no matter what Kanba did for Masako as a child (and I am not discounting that) I don't think he deserved for her to die (or risk her life because I am hoping she is not dead) for his crimes.

Well, no death is ever deserved for any reason so I assumed you were talking about her dedication in following him and trying to persuade him otherwise from his cause only. While I try not to say this about fictional characters because I believe that could pollute the quality of the story, I too wish that Masako is not dead. So we're together here ^^

[Cao Ni Ma]

Well, I liked this episode a lot. Lots of nice imagery and music, lots of action and even some good comedy despite the dark tonne this series has taken.

Now, If Im correct, next episode will be the big thing. The number 23 has been hidden everywhere in this series and its pretty auspicious in regards to the actual events of the sarin attacks. The schoolgirl that notices one of the culprits in the 23rd station and makes him switch tracks in the next one. The mastermind being charged with 23 counts of murder. 231 series injuries in the attacks in one of the lines. The attack itself occurred on the 20th day of the 3rd month. 23rd of the 4th month the head of the science ministry of Aum Shinrikyo is assassinated.

Its everywhere please...help me...

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Forsaken_Infinity

Well, no death is ever deserved for any reason so I assumed you were talking about her dedication in following him and trying to persuade him otherwise from his cause only. While I try not to say this about fictional characters because I believe that could pollute the quality of the story, I too wish that Masako is not dead. So we're together here ^^

I don't think there is anything wrong with her trying to stop him from being on a dangerous path because she cared about him, but I think dying for his crimes, well he didn't deserve that.

No one deserves to die you are right but at the very least I don't think the cause she might have died for was worthy.

[Utsuro no Hako]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

I don't think there is anything wrong with her trying to stop him from being on a dangerous path because she cared about him, but I think dying for his crimes, well he didn't deserve that.

No one deserves to die you are right but at the very least I don't think the cause she might have died for was worthy.

You're looking at it backwards. What's important is that Masako was willing to sacrifice herself for love, not whether the object of that love was worthy. Refer back to the Night on the Galactic Railroad discussion in the very first episode, where the one boy says, "The apple is also a reward for those who have chosen love over everything else." For her love to be worthy, it can't come with any caveats -- the scorpion doesn't say, "I want to be eaten by the weasel, so long as he's a good, moral weasel."

[Kirarakim]

Well I'm sorry but I don't believe in that type of sacrifice. Masako's life was worth something not to be thrown away for her brother's crimes. Is that going to stop Kanba from taking other people's lives? Well I at least hope it does that.

In fact I think if she wanted to sacrifice herself for Kanba then she should have tried to save the people he harmed.

Edit: and I know that Miyazawa might disagree with me; although in his story his theme was introduced by saving the life of a bully, not someone who took other lives. It's just a different level for me.

[YayPepsi]

No actually I disagree, no matter what Kanba did for Masako as a child (and I am not discounting that) I don't think he deserved for her to die (or risk her life because I am hoping she is not dead) for his crimes.

Kanba chose his path and Masako chose her's. No one forced Kanba to fight so hard for Himari's life, and no one forced Masako to offer herself up as bait to protect Kanba. It's not as if she made a blind decision - she saw what he did first hand and she still wanted to protect him. Ultimately, it's her life and her choice. If she feels he's still a cause worth dying for, then that's really all that matters.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by YayPepsi

Kanba chose his path and Masako chose her's. No one forced Kanba to fight so hard for Himari's life, and no one forced Masako to offer herself up as bait to protect Kanba. It's not as if she made a blind decision - she saw what he did first hand and she still wanted to protect him. Ultimately, it's her life and her choice. If she feels he's still a cause worth dying for, then that's really all that matters.

What are you saying I am not allowed to disapprove of Masako and Kanba's choices just because it was their choice. That makes no sense

[YayPepsi]

No, I'm not saying you're not allowed to disapprove. I'm just saying that what's worthy and unworthy is in the eye of the beholder. You might not think that Masako's sacrifice was worth it, but to her it was, even after knowing Kanba was a murderer.

Plus Masako isn't exactly innocent herself. She's not as guilty as Kanba, but she is still going out as bait to let a gang of terrorists (including her brother) escape justice just to spare him.

[risingstar3110]

I believe the ending will be really abstract, and it gonna be up to viewers to decide what happened. If that's he case, I prefer a non-Madoka-esque so the shows won't be shadowed.

Actually i start to understand more on Ikuhara and his family theme here. I means from Western POV ,the idea of terrorists, especially after murdering bunches of law enforcer will be unacceptable. (Unless they were portrayed to be under dictators or corrupted government, then most of the time Hollywood approves free kills). Ikuhara also portrayed that idea through Masako's disgusting at Kanba's actions (killing every opposition, and calling the dead cops as 'pests' and such). However in the same time, he has been showing family to be core drive of modern society (especially the unconditional loves between family members), and in a more justified tone. Kanba and Masako will go against the society to save their beloved siblings, while probably more self sacrifice (Himari for example) is coming to set things right.

I don't think that Himari's sickness is naturally caused. Shouma seems to secretly know more than the whole cast and he thought it was casted toward her. I thought it's just his own way to interpret things at first. But consider his important role toward the ending..... his story about the Goddess, the Apple trees, three sheep and two rabbits..... might turn out to be like that Utena's theatrical play

[Kirarakim]

Actually according to Ikuhara it was an American program of a family sticking together even when members were in prison is what made him come up with this theme.

Also I don't think Ikuhara is trying to say terrorism is acceptable even for your loved ones (there is a reason Ikuhara showed the actual carnage Kanba created & not just shown as cut outs). He is saying family sticks together. Although I still don't like the idea of Masako's self sacrifice for Kanba's crimes. I am not against the idea of loving your family despite what they did (although I am not sure I 100% agree with that either, for example I don't think Yuri should have to stick by her father)

And even with Shouma's story, I do think the death is natural. Himari accepts her death & so should Kanba. In fact that was a major point to Night on the Galactic railroad.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Actually according to Ikuhara it was an American program of a family sticking together even when members were in prison is what made him come up with this theme.

Also I don't think Ikuhara is trying to say terrorism is acceptable even for your loved ones (there is a reason Ikuhara showed the actual carnage Kanba created & not just shown as cut outs). He is saying family sticks together. Although I still don't like the idea of Masako's self sacrifice for Kanba's crimes. I am not against the idea of loving your family despite what they did (although I am not sure I 100% agree with that either, for example I don't think Yuri should have to stick by her father)

And even with Shouma's story, I do think the death is natural. Himari accepts her death & so should Kanba. In fact that was a major point to Night on the Galactic railroad.

Yeah, but even on the terrorism issues, i means even in the real world, there's so many set of standards and different set of moral values to follow.

Most of the time terrorism activities won't be condemned no matter what, mostly due to Western POV during post-2001 era (same for deontological POV). But other times, it all goes back to the outcomes of the acts. That same set of idea will start to get greyer as new elements added in. How's about terrorism to oppose an oppressed regime, dictatorship? Terrorism to encourage national independence? Using terrorist's methods as a deterrence toward further terrorism? Don't want to get on politics side too much, (and spark unnecessary debates), but Ned Kelly for one, can be both a rebelling cop-killer or a folk-hero, depending on who to ask.

Overall it's still a sensitive issue

In the same time, many may find the unconditional love toward family members (family sticking together) should always be a more noble acts to follow. And considering how things like loyalty in merdival~ish Japan( and most of the rest of the world) used to be more important than one own life or justice, i guess it's not entirely dis-functional to have that thinking

[tsunade666]

Fabulous MAX! With Masako and Kanba going with a bang. Masako taking the center stage and Kanba being the big bad boss of the terrorist and who was Himari again? Emo Shouma is still Emo but in the last part of the episode after the ending sure is interesting. Kinda fitting for the emo boy to be in the box.

[Lenneth4]

Well , i see this forum off line since a long time

Penguindrum is a masterpiece (i'll not argue with someone thinking otherwise, i'll ignore him/her because i dont want to be angry for nothing)

so , for people who think Kanba deserves redemption, i think it's insane , i mean...
seriously guys ...

Come on.
redemption okay , when you kill one or two guy for your sister maybe , for a love , but being a terrorist , blowing bombs in city , killing people, preparing attacks , seriously ?? what a joke.

He is weak and dont think to the victims , it's unbelievable
Personnally , he deserves to be beheaded after tortured . To be fair he deserves even more.

cause if everyone on earth was weak like him, then the world would be a giant Mess with everyone DEAD. seriously.


I 'm afraid of a cool ending with kanba smiling and such , i really hope not to see that . jesus.