2012-05-12, 00:55 | Link #28781 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
|
Quote:
In regards to the seals being broken pre-logic error: I thought a posible point was that as game master Battler was able to change the story as long as it wouldn't be noticed, however he was unable to think of a way to escape the logic error which would also fool Erika. He could have just had someone break the seals (they DIDN'T do it without him noticing, he just hadn't decided they had done it) but Erika would have guessed it in about 5 seconds. What Beatrice did was go, ok so someone DID escape, but do it in a way Erika could not solve. Sure, she didn't make the solution to the logic error a trick, but Erika was still caught out being unable to give a full solution, so lost. If Battler provides a thousand plausible answers but Erika solves each part of them, he still loses. It's the same way that her saying "you can change your moves since I just placed the seal" is a dirty trick, because by changing any move he shows what his plan would have needed to involve previously. This might mean the whole thing with Dlanor was basically a "sure, that could have happened GAAP, but since you aren't the gamemaster you can't go saying it did" |
|
2012-05-12, 02:35 | Link #28782 |
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2012
|
Renall, the reason Erika would "win" if she caught team Witch in an act of fakery is that those are the rules of the game - if Battler can't fool Erika at least once, the witch side loses and that's it for Battler and Beatrice. If Battler doesn't preserve the mystery then Battler himself, Beatrice and the whole gameboard just get destroyed. Team Mystery needs to win once and then that's it for the witch.
The reason Erika "lost"(in my opinion she should have won) is Shkanontrice rearing its' ugly head again. To use the words of the translation, Erika didn't have love - which made her completely unable to see what Beatrice's answer was("No, it's a splendid trick! People without love cannot see that ...!"). Erika has no idea about any of the shkanontrice nonsense, and if shkanontrice wasn't true then she would have won the duel. Shkanontrice is essential to Beatrice's solution actually working at all, because otherwise Kanon ends up in the room and what happened is obvious and Mystery wins. Beatrice's solution was most likely something along the lines of "Kanon rescues battler, resets the chain, hides in the closet and then "dies", leaving behind Shannon/Beatrice." |
2012-05-12, 04:05 | Link #28783 | ||
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
2012-05-12, 06:09 | Link #28784 | ||||||
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Germany
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
And I can't think of how a person would still be confused after reading Ep7. It basically spells out YasuShkanontrice. It was even pretty straightforward what with the "bud of love" being transferred and stuff. This didn't seem like a puzzle at all. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I just find that Battler's suffering inside the logic error seemed pretty real - has he become such a splendid actor? =D
__________________
|
||||||
2012-05-12, 06:22 | Link #28785 | ||
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
|
Quote:
Quote:
Also if he really just fell for it, then i don't understand, why BATTLER played it so risky at all. I mean even if "Kyrie saved him", that would not be hard to guess at all. I don't see a "wonderful closed room" in that. It would be like Battler took 1 step forward in EP5, but 10 steps back in EP6. |
||
2012-05-12, 06:24 | Link #28786 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
|
Quote:
|
|
2012-05-12, 11:12 | Link #28789 |
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2012
|
GreyZone, Battler wasn't "playing risky" on purpose. Erika tricked him into giving her those seals, and without those seals Battler's game would have been a lot more difficult for her. He ended up in the logic error because he got tricked into giving up the seals, and then was too vague when defining what they could do.
After all, Battler is incompetent. There's no way that he planned the logic error, considering the amount of genius required to fully anticipate Erika AND Bernkastel's actions. |
2012-05-12, 13:30 | Link #28790 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Age: 30
|
Remember that that red was stated in relation to EP1,
written by Yasu who characterized Battler after who he was 6 years ago and that red might've been true in relation to the piece Battler considering his actual age. Still, I'll agree it's a bit far-fetched in places but considering other stuff Umineko's gotten away with it's very plausible. Regardless of dubious play during the leadup, the main idea, that is: Battler knowing the simple solution to the 'logic error' that hinges on Shkanon but keeps it to himself in hopes that it'll make chick Beato remember is still a very obvious point listening to the way he worded things during EP6 with the talk about leaving the chick Beato to figure things out herself so he could hold onto a miracle and such. It seems like the obvious climax to that plan (as opposed to nothing coming out of it). Last edited by CrimsonMoonMist; 2012-05-12 at 20:51. |
2012-05-12, 17:12 | Link #28791 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
|
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2012-05-12, 17:54 | Link #28792 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
|
I generally think at the logic error as something akin to Battler declaring he got a writer block so he can't write the solution when in truth he has it in his mind and Beato figuring out the solution and writing it for him.
So Battler knew what the pieces had to do he just pretended he didn't. Though Dlanor is presented as Erika's ally I think in the end she's bounded to be pretty impartial. Even if she knew something was out of place and might have suspected Battler to do something likely couldn't report it to Erika without the gamemaster's permission because apparently only the GM is exempt by the It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique as when the GM assures something the detective doesn't need to provide clues about it (and when the GM is unwilling to assure something Dlanor and his assistants' truth are sealed like in EP 5 with Kinzo's window). For Battler pretending to be in a logic error was fundamental because he wanted Beato to take over the story and find the solution he had written, therefore recovering memory of herself (or solving her own riddle). The interesting thing to wonder should be: what if Beato had found a solution that didn't involve ShKannon? As for preserving fantasy... well, through all the games fantasy was always at risk of being destroyed as everything was done using human tricks. Though I guess in reference to the specific seal if Erika were to ask if that seal was still as she left it Battler/Beato could have said: Shannon and the other people with her in the room didn't break it. ... which is true as it's actually 'Kanon' who broke it and is a reply that can trick Erika as it doesn't reveal the truth that the seal is broken. It's similar to when Battler asked Beato to say in red that there were only 18 people on the island and she said there were no more than 18 people on the island. It seems the same but actually it leaves space for a 'there's less than 18 people on the island'. Sure, if Erika were to remain suspicious she could have pressed for other red truths and eventually she could have figured out the truth. I guess it's a recurring risk in all the games. |
2012-05-12, 18:29 | Link #28793 |
Guitar Man
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brazil
|
I always thought the logic error was more of a situation where Battler had the tools to get out (Shkanon), but, in the heat of the moment, he couldn't come up with a way to move the pieces (shannon-kanon) while preserving the fantasy at the same time.
It was more of a matter of creativity than being stupid or planning a logic error all along. Sorry but, in which part? (my memory is failing me, it's been so long...)
__________________
|
2012-05-12, 21:38 | Link #28796 |
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
|
Imagine, Erika didn't kill the other 5 death-fakers... 1 of them could have rescued Battler... so? What makes this such a great closed room? That room is completly useless from the standpoint of the GM, because:
1. It would mean Battler acually thinks that Erika cannot figure out that someone switched places with Battler. 2. The exchanged person could be found, if Erika did another "investigation of the room". (He even risked to be found himself before, if Erika checked the closet before the bathroom...) Please give me a valid reason (while adressing the 2 points above), why Battler still insisted in this room, after he got to know that 1 portion of the seals was used to seal it up. The only one I can come up with would really just be incompetence, which would be a very lame story device, because it would deem all the "character developement" in EP5 as pointless. I think so too. |
2012-05-12, 22:31 | Link #28797 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
|
The existence of the logic error hinges on Erika being able to affect the game board without the Game Master's knowledge. In EP8, Battler, Beatrice, and Lambda all say that this is fundamentally impossible, and Bern can only get away with moving Ange by being co-Game Master. At around the same time, Battler also describes himself during a card game as someone who isn't afraid to throw a fight in order to go for the big win.
__________________
|
2012-05-13, 00:12 | Link #28798 | |
Guitar Man
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brazil
|
Quote:
Battler allowed Erika to mess with his game with retroactive seals and such. It was almost like Erika was a co-gamemaster. Whatever~
__________________
|
|
2012-05-13, 00:26 | Link #28799 | ||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
|
Quote:
Quote:
But I still believe Genius Battler. It makes so much sense in so many ways. |
||
2012-05-13, 01:46 | Link #28800 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
Battler doesn't need to know exactly what Erika will do to screw him over if he has provided her the tools to encourage her to more or less go after him in a particular way.
Remember, Genji/Ronove told Battler about the existence of Logic Errors while he was working on the story. For something he literally just talked to someone about, Battler sure acts surprised when Erika goes for it. Isn't it more reasonable to think that his awareness of Logic Errors influenced his construction of the story to allow for one? Also: Why three rooms? Why not one, or two, or five, or as many as Erika wished? Three is a fairly arbitrary number, but it also happens to be exactly as many as Erika needs. I never brought this up in the initial proposal of Genius Battler but someone raised this point just recently and I think it's telling as well: Battler's pre-murder-reveal solution is incredibly mundane and doesn't actually preserve the fantasy at all. Having one of the other victims switch with him is such a genuinely pathetic idea that Erika might as well have just allowed it because it was dumb and wouldn't have done Battler any good. Why would that have even been something he'd propose but to look desperate? EDIT: And if nothing can happen without the GM's knowledge, Battler would already know the other victims were dead, so he'd have to be doing it on purpose because he can't propose something he knows is wrong earnestly.
__________________
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|