Ore no Imouto (Season Two) - Episode 14-16 [Series End] Discussion / Poll

[Black Phoenix]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

There's no point in "attacking" this argument because you are too biased to be reasonable. Saying that any character in this story has "no redeeming qualities" means that you haven't actually paid any attention to the plot. And I would say this same thing if you were referring to any other character as well (Ayase, Manami, Kanako, Kuroneko, whoever), as they all have both flaws and strengths.

Basically, your lack of objectivity makes your post essentially flamebait, and there's no sense in responding. You are allowed your opinion, but there's nothing to debate.

I was saying the same thing... You covered everything. For that kind of "flamewar" question, just means that he did not read/watch the same thing that I read/watched. Or if had, probably was already with a "biased" opinion from the start.

[Soverence]

Originally Posted by Chysamere

I notice that no one attacked my core message - that Kirino has no redeeming qualities and that Kyousuke's actions are completely irrational.

All her "Star" qualities are accidents of birth or luck, nothing more. All wrapped up an an outer coating of the kind of person I wouldn't piss on to put out if she was on fire.

Well, I feel like saying Kirino has no redeeming qualities is a little harsh for her character. It is true that she has a massive Tsun exterior but at the same time she is a caring person, probably best shown during the time Kuroneko was dating Kyousuke and after they broke up. In both cases she put her own personal feelings aside in order to try to make Kyousuke happy. And even if she very rarely shows it, she is truly grateful for all the things Kyousuke has done for her. Also, most of her star qualities were not something she had at birth as we could see from episode 13, they were all things she had to work hard for.

Now, I can see why you might dislike her though, she exhibits a lot of the Tsun qualities to a very high degree I.E. being basically abusive and irrational in order to hide how she actually feels. And on top of that, as Kyousuke says at the end, she is a "bratty little sister" because she is, but there are a lot of people who are brats at her age and like most of them, she would eventually grow out of it.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by VORTIA

And yet, it seems the majority of viewers somehow managed to get the completely opposite impression, and I haven't the slightest clue why. With the mountains of evidence pushing the Kirino/Kyosuke pairing and imouto themed romances hardly being a rarity in anime, it seemed like there had to be some sort of mass hysteria form of denial going on for people to not see where everything was headed. Was it just wishful thinking on the part of people who didn't want an incest end but were somehow turned onto the show by the quality of its characters and self-depricating humor? Right before volume 12 was released there were so many people vehemently denying that this would be a Kirino win that they almost had me second guessing myself. Was there something I was missing?

There have been many a debate about this issue on this forum over the years. I can give you some of the arguments I remember:

• This is a story about sibling reconciliation. While the story alludes to sibling romance themes, it does it only in a tongue-in-cheek way or as a parody. They're not hints.
• The way the story is written is mostly realistic, and sibling romance crosses the bounds of believability. I'm confident the author won't do that. After all, they're constantly pointing out that you shouldn't mix 2D and 3D.
• (Early days) Kirino's behaviour towards Kyousuke can't simply be explained by her being in love with him and acting "tsundere". Whatever happened in the past is the real reason for her anger, not romantic feelings. (note: This turned out to be partly true.)
• (Early days) This is really a comedy about Kirino's hobby and friends, and how Kyousuke gets involved in that part of her life; romance isn't really a central theme. (note: This definitely did not turn out to be true.)
• All the scenes where you perceive romantic hints with Kirino could easily be interpreted as misdirection, since the author makes sure to never cross the line and keep it nebulous. The author is just adding this as fanservice.
• I don't dislike sibling romance in some stories, but I just wanted -- for once -- for there to be a light novel that deals with regular siblings, and doesn't make the sister into a love interest.

I guess you could sum it all up by saying: a deep-set belief that the story wouldn't "go there", that they felt they could justify from the text/show. (This is aside from people who just didn't like Kirino or didn't want her to "win", which is a completely separate issue.)

[Black Phoenix]

And your real opinion about that arguments and the story in question?

[king12354]

I found myself skipping a bunch of scenes throughout these episodes and throughout the series. Kirino has no appeal to me and I abhor the thought of even thinking about marrying your little sister (I have one). I would say the series have been average throughout. The drama, comedy, slice-of-life didn't pluck any heartstrings. In the end, I never really saw much depth to any of the characters, moreover it doesn't help that I didn't empathize with Kyousuke.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Chysamere

Oh I agree with you 100%. I love the anime, I just hate Kirino so much. My anecdotal evidence is most likely influenced by the fact that I introduced the anime to men my own age (25-35) as well as women. Women in particular absolutely cannot stand Kirino. As to men, I'd like to think that older men won't tolerate that kind of rubbish, but I can't deny there's a baffling popularity to tsundere characters. Louise from Zero no Tsukaima, Taiga from Toradora, etc etc. However, none of those characters enrage me like Kirino does.

I notice that no one attacked my core message - that Kirino has no redeeming qualities and that Kyousuke's actions are completely irrational.

All her "Star" qualities are accidents of birth or luck, nothing more. All wrapped up an an outer coating of the kind of person I wouldn't piss on to put out if she was on fire.

I'm not a big fan of Kirino, but even I think you're being too hard on her here.

She does have some redeeming qualities - She tends to be very bold. Not every teenager would be willing to go to a foreign country, where people speak a different language than you.

And people tend to appreciate natural talent, even if it is something that a person doesn't earn for himself/herself. Just look at how beloved most pro sports stars are, and they couldn't be where they are if they weren't born with those talents.


Anyway, I think Kirino's popularity largely rests in three things:

1. Do you know what male pro sports fans and male gamers have in common? They absolutely love it when a member of the opposite sex shares their passion. It's considered by many men a great relief when a decently attractive member of the opposite sex shares his pro sports/gaming passion, because if he hits it off with her, then it means he won't have the usual fights over the TV remote control or over playing video games.

Kirino is like that for male otakus. Here's a girl who actually shares my passions! And it's not because she's a fujoshi! She loves the same sort of VN games and anime shows that I do!


2. I've learned over time that tsunderes are like hot wings. The "tsun" is the spicy sauce, and the "dere" is the delectable meat. Now, some people like spicy food and some people don't. Likewise, some people like the spice of the tsun and some people don't.

Now, even amongst people who like spicy food, there are different threshold levels. If given a choice between "mild, medium, or strong", I'll usually choose "medium". "Strong" is usually too much for me, even though I do like spicy food. But for some spicy food lovers, the spicier/hotter the better. It can't get too spicy/hot for these folks. "Bring on the insanity wings!" is what these people say. So those insanity wings are like rare delicacies for those that love them.

Well, if tsunderes are hot wings, then Kirino is an Insanity-level hot wing. It's for people who like their tsun spice at the spiciest level possible. Other tsundere/hot wing comparisons to further clarify...

Mild - Kurisu Makise, Rin Tohsaka, Haruhi Suzumiya
Medium - Mikoto Misaka, Kyou Fujibayashi, Sana Inui
Strong - Naru Narusegawa, KugRie Tsunderes
Insanity - Kirino Kosaka, Akane Tendo


3. Kirino carefully guarded her otaku passion from her non-otaku circle of friends at school. I think some otakus can relate to this, and so this makes Kirino more popular with them.

[Akito Kinomoto]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

No, it's not pointless because it builds suspense. The reason the story attracted so much interest in the second half because there was a growing question of how things would end. The sort of passion we see in this thread, for example, would never have happened if they had made Kirino and Kyousuke's romance more clear and obvious the whole time. That itself was an objective in the story: to keep people guessing and build hype. Whether you think that's a worthy goal or not... you can decide.

And it was only half-suspenseful for the reasons I brought out on Kirino's side and made "going there" a believable outcome anyway. The way to that outcome is what's hard to believe.

[VORTIA]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I guess you could sum it all up by saying: a deep-set belief that the story wouldn't "go there", that they felt they could justify from the text/show. (This is aside from people who just didn't like Kirino or didn't want her to "win", which is a completely separate issue.)

So what you are saying is that they generally weren't genre savvy and discounted an incestuous romance ending as a realistic possibility?

I suppose I could see that. I guess the average Western anime fan isn't well aware of how much little sister romance material is actually out there. (Even though I felt that part of the joke was that this series made a point of pointing out just how much there was. Maybe folks didn't read much into that either).

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Black Phoenix

And your real opinion about that arguments and the story in question?

Assuming you're referring to me and my presentation of the arguments I've seen against Kirino as a romantic interest?

Honestly, from the get-go I could only ever see Kirino as a tsundere sister in love with her brother. Even hearing all the other arguments, there was never any other explanation that justified her emotional reactions to me. Particularly, for example, in Episode 9 of the first season, and Kirino starts emulating the reactions of the tsundere character in her eroge to gauge Kyousuke's reaction. Why else would she be taking "lessons" from characters she herself finds intolerable at first but still end up in love with the protagonist? So I just could never believe it myself... but I'm not going to say that their beliefs represented an impossible outcome either.

Originally Posted by VORTIA

So what you are saying is that they generally weren't genre savvy and discounted an incestuous romance ending as a realistic possibility?

I suppose I could see that. I guess the average Western anime fan isn't well aware of how much little sister romance material is actually out there.

Nah, some of them were actually quite genre-savvy, but just thought this work felt different to them for some reason. Something about the writing and the way the characters were portrayed (and the trickery with which it was written) seemed convincing.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

She loves the same sort of VN games and anime shows that I do!

Personally, I thought her interest wasn't as much what made her attractive, but what made her interesting/funny and somewhat "ironic". It was a good gag that was used to good effect throughout the show (and even in the ending). It probably wouldn't have mattered had her hobbies been something different that she was equally passionate about (Kuroneko was also fun and interesting with her hobbies), but it tied closely to the overall theme of the show.

[VORTIA]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

2. I've learned over time that tsunderes are like hot wings. The "tsun" is the spicy sauce, and the "dere" is the delectable meat. Now, some people like spicy food and some people don't. Likewise, some people like the spice of the tsun and some people don't.

Now, even amongst people who like spicy food, there are different threshold levels. If given a choice between "mild, medium, or strong", I'll usually choose "medium". "Strong" is usually too much for me, even though I do like spicy food. But for some spicy food lovers, the spicier/hotter the better. It can't get too spicy/hot for these folks. "Bring on the insanity wings!" is what these people say. So those insanity wings are like rare delicacies for those that love them.

I love this analogy and I'm going to borrow it in the future. Thank you!

[GVN.Chaos]

Originally Posted by Chysamere

I notice that no one attacked my core message - that Kirino has no redeeming qualities and that Kyousuke's actions are completely irrational.

Did she? Please tell me what exactly happened during this time, why she did that.
Season 1, Eps 11: The harem party
Season 2, Eps 9: After the night life counseling with Kyousuke.

If you still deny that, then I have nothing else to say.

All her "Star" qualities are accidents of birth or luck, nothing more. All wrapped up an an outer coating of the kind of person I wouldn't piss on to put out if she was on fire.

You are death wrong in this. Saying all those people who success in life is because 'accidents of birth or luck' is an insult. True, luck play a part, like 1% of their success. The rest is sweat and tear - hard working. No one - I repeat : No one can success without work hard

Originally Posted by Soverence

Well, I feel like saying Kirino has no redeeming qualities is a little harsh for her character. It is true that she has a massive Tsun exterior but at the same time she is a caring person, probably best shown during the time Kuroneko was dating Kyousuke and after they broke up. In both cases she put her own personal feelings aside in order to try to make Kyousuke happy. And even if she very rarely shows it, she is truly grateful for all the things Kyousuke has done for her. Also, most of her star qualities were not something she had at birth as we could see from episode 13, they were all things she had to work hard for.

Now, I can see why you might dislike her though, she exhibits a lot of the Tsun qualities to a very high degree I.E. being basically abusive and irrational in order to hide how she actually feels. And on top of that, as Kyousuke says at the end, she is a "bratty little sister" because she is, but there are a lot of people who are brats at her age and like most of them, she would eventually grow out of it.

Like Soverenge said, it's understandable that people dislike her. However, it's also understandable that she acted so hostile toward Kyousuke at first: in her mind, it's his fault all this time. In her mind, he is only faking it for whatever reason. In her mind, he is not that trustworthy

[VORTIA]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Nah, some of them were actually quite genre-savvy, but just thought this work felt different to them for some reason. Something about the writing and the way the characters were portrayed (and the trickery with which it was written) seemed convincing.

This might make for an interesting follow-up question. Oreimo seems to have had some relatively mainstream success, at least for a late-night otaku anime.

Do you think that Fushimi deliberately hid where he was going with his story purely for plot purposes or was it done to possibly build the number of readers who may not otherwise be on board with where his story was going?

While I think Fushimi was just trying to write a fun, believable comedy while getting crap past the radar, I have to consider that there may have been a bit of deliberate, for-profit trolling going on.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by VORTIA

This might make for an interesting follow-up question. Oreimo seems to have had some relatively mainstream success, at least for a late-night otaku anime.

Do you think that Fushimi deliberately hid where he was going with his story purely for plot purposes or was it done to possibly build the number of readers who may not otherwise be on board with where his story was going?

While I think Fushimi was just trying to write a fun, believable comedy while getting crap past the radar, I have to consider that there may have been a bit of deliberate, for-profit trolling going on.

Well, for sure, the novels are extremely successful, far beyond the usual "otaku niche". The last volume has already sold over 200,000 copies in Japan (125k in its first week). That's pretty huge. So yeah, I think the way the plot was developed was indeed crafted so that the story would remain appealing to the maximum amount of people for as long as possible. This seems to me to be why the final romantic pairing wasn't revealed until the last volume, since they built the story to be very partisan and to encourage the readers to cheer for their favourite characters. And as I've alluded to before, I think the tricky way it was written also led to the speculation and riled up the fanbase -- which is why we had been having debates about Kirino for the last many years. Polarizing characters are still interesting, and it gave people something to argue about if nothing else.

So I do think it was all part of the plan, basically, but not necessarily intended as "trolling" as much as continuing to feed the fan frenzy a bit. This is why, despite the controversy over the ending and everything else, Kirino remains an iconic character and the story likely won't be soon forgotten.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by VORTIA

I love this analogy and I'm going to borrow it in the future. Thank you!

I'm glad you found it useful.


As for why some people were shocked by the ending, I think it's because the narrative has a certain realism to it or at least tries to reflect on what we see in reality.

When I think of other potential incest couples in anime, I see cases like...

1) Parents are nowhere to be seen.

2) Parents are seen, but are actually pushing for the incest.

3) The two siblings are living entirely on their own, and hence are somewhat like a married couple anyway.

4) They're not full-blooded siblings. One is an adopted sibling. Or a sibling via marriage but not a blood sibling. Or the sibling is actually a cousin (and cousin marriages aren't all that uncommon in the world).

I think these sorts of scenarios sets off flags for people to not expect realism here and/or that the narrative is kind of making excuses for an incest end.


But Kyousuke and Kirino's parents are very much "there". Kyousuke and Kirino are full-blooded siblings. Ore no Imouto does deal with the real life issues faced by otakus. The divisions between Kirino and Kuroneko do reflect actual common taste divisions between anime fans in real life.

So people come to expect a certain level of realism.

Now... how many brother/sister romances do you know in real life? I think I might have heard about one on the news a long, long time ago. So there's a rarity here that, when coupled with the relative realism of the narrative, makes people think that an incest ending is unlikely.

[chaosprophet]

Originally Posted by VORTIA

Then of course the last light novel came out and I found I was more or less on the money, but I'm still puzzled by how everyone else drew the opposite conclusions. By the reactions, this seems far more drastic than the typical complaints people have when the characters they like lose out in a love comedy. People seem to have been honestly surprised with how the plot resolved itself.
Can anyone provide their thoughts? I'm trying to wrap my head around this.

I believe the main reason causing that reaction is the fact that they're siblings. As I said in a post before in the novel thread, anything a person could do for someone he loves romantically is also something that same person could do for a sibling they truly care about. Both interpretations are possible, but in general and most stories it's safe to interpret by default it's just because of them being related.

Of course, considering oreimo premise, then i think this is the kind of story where you at least need to keep the possibility of romantic in mind. But some people kept that closed all the way so in that sense the end may feel indeed like it came out of nowhere. Some would only accept things that they felt only a lover would have done but a brother wouldn't, which the point I'm trying to make is that there is no such a thing, especially if you're willing to consider a brother who cares a lot about it's sister.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Now... how many brother/sister romances do you know in real life? I think I might have heard about one on the news a long, long time ago. So there's a rarity here that, when coupled with the relative realism of the narrative, makes people think that an incest ending is unlikely.

Well, I would only point out: how likely are you to actually know about it even if it were happening? Given the legal situation, it isn't something that I expect people would be open about. There could easily be situations where siblings are living together in real life, and no one knows their past or circumstances and we'd all be none the wiser. The only times we hear about it are when people get "caught", usually after having kids and someone somehow makes the connection. I have no idea how much this occurs... but I don't think I'd really have any way of figuring it out either. These days living together without being legally married is commonplace anyway.

(Or I guess to bring it back home to roost, in the way the story ended here, with Kirino and Kyousuke agreeing to act like normal siblings in public but continuing the personal life consultations in private, how likely is it that some random person is going to figure out what they're up to if they keep "playing by the rules" until they have the means to move away and make a new life elsewhere? The biggest risk, I suppose, is that their close friends know the truth and could expose them. They've been plenty-close at home for a long enough while now that I'm not sure how much that'll change either way.)

[VORTIA]

Originally Posted by GVN.Chaos

Did she? Please tell me what exactly happened
You are death wrong in this. Saying all those people who success in life is because 'accidents of birth or luck' is an insult. True, luck play a part, like 1% of their success. The rest is sweat and tear - hard working. No one - I repeat : No one can success without work hard

If anything, Ep.13 puts paid to the idea that Kirino's talent is "natural". She obviously had zero natural athletic talent as a child, getting winded just staggering down the block.

[Insert_Gel]

Cool. The poll pretty much sums up my feelings on this anime. Keep it up!

[VORTIA]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

When I think of other potential incest couples in anime, I see cases like...
1) Parents are nowhere to be seen.
2) Parents are seen, but are actually pushing for the incest.
3) The two siblings are living entirely on their own, and hence are somewhat like a married couple anyway.

You know, I didn't really think about this aspect. Parents tend to be so absent/irrelevant in most anime anyway that I don't think I ever made the connection.

Originally Posted by chaosprophet

As I said in a post before in the novel thread, anything a person could do for someone he loves romantically is also something that same person could do for a sibling they truly care about. Both interpretations are possible, but in general and most stories it's safe to interpret by default it's just because of them being related.

That's also a pretty sharp thought, thank you for sharing!

[chaosprophet]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

B]2.[/B] I've learned over time that tsunderes are like hot wings. The "tsun" is the spicy sauce, and the "dere" is the delectable meat. Now, some people like spicy food and some people don't. Likewise, some people like the spice of the tsun and some people don't.

Now, even amongst people who like spicy food, there are different threshold levels. If given a choice between "mild, medium, or strong", I'll usually choose "medium". "Strong" is usually too much for me, even though I do like spicy food. But for some spicy food lovers, the spicier/hotter the better. It can't get too spicy/hot for these folks. "Bring on the insanity wings!" is what these people say. So those insanity wings are like rare delicacies for those that love them.

Well, if tsunderes are hot wings, then Kirino is an Insanity-level hot wing. It's for people who like their tsun spice at the spiciest level possible. Other tsundere/hot wing comparisons to further clarify...

Mild - Kurisu Makise, Rin Tohsaka, Haruhi Suzumiya
Medium - Mikoto Misaka, Kyou Fujibayashi, Sana Inui
Strong - Naru Narusegawa, KugRie Tsunderes
Insanity - Kirino Kosaka, Akane Tendo

This was an interesting analogy, but I think it is a bit more complex than that. Things like the setting of the story, what are the inner reasons that make the character act that way, does the other/s characters do something to deserve that reaction... basically context matter when deciding if an action is too much or not. To add to your analogy, while it won't change the spiciness of the hot wing itself, depending on whether you eat it by itself or with some other food, whether you have something cold to drink available or not, the amount of spiciness you will perceive will differ. For instance, Mikoto tends to electrocute people that get her angry. Without adding context that would definably be on the insane levels of tsun.

Now to be in topic, since the beginning I always felt that Kirino had aromatic feelings for Kyousuke, whether subconsciously or not. It also felt to me that there was likely something more to the reason they had the cold fight and that Kyouusuke may have done something to deserve her anger. And I also thought that the way way Kirino acted regarding liking anime, specially eroge that target males was a mirror of how she would treat her feelings towards Kyosuke, something she understand that was strange, that society didn't see in good lights, but liking it is part of what she is, that she can't help the fact she likes it.

In light of that interpretation, I felt Kirino was justified enough / that her actions were understandable to the extent where nothing she did really crossed the "spicy" line to me.