Teaching in the USA these days

[Kyuu]

Teachers under the morality microscope

In the Facebook era, they are being disciplined — and even losing jobs — for perfectly lawful behavior during off-hours

....

Most citizens view the end of work each day as a clear line in dividing their responsibilities to an employer from their rights as an individual. While at work, we accept that we must comply with work-related expectations and policies. But when the whistle blows, we consider ourselves our own masters — pursuing recreation or even legal vices as we see fit.

Increasingly, however, public school teachers are being fired or suspended for perfectly lawful activities during off-work hours when those activities are deemed inappropriate by parents or school officials.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...,7552571.story

I'd have to say: this is a residual effect by those teachers who have been accused or caught for sexual misconduct with students. From then onward, it became part of the culture to put teachers under further scrutiny -- to curb further and other forms of misbehavior.

However, when is the scrutiny too much?

At the same time, teaching is a public sector job, just like police and fire departments. Certain codes of conduct does come along with the job description. And thus, there are expectations on behavioral conduct to be met.

Other discussion questions:

• How do you rate your teachers?
• What kind of student are/were you? Honor. Athletic. Misbehaved. Etc.?
• Do you consider teaching to be a worthwhile line of work?

And so on, so forth with many other questions.

[warita]

Oh wow, that is ridiculous. And only possible in USA, no offence intended.

As for what kind of student I was: as a teenager I was really easy to handle, good student, nevr caused any trouble.

As a young kid, I was labeled a trouble maker, not because I was causing trouble, but for not being able to follow the teachers instructions to the letter. I has highly hyperactive and couldnt sit still and concentrate on the lecture, no matter how mich I tried. I had very good grades since I was a smart kid and had no trouble with the learning material, but the teacher didnt care. What she cared about was, that I wasnt doing what she told me to. I had some hard years in primary..... sigh

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by warita

Oh wow, that is ridiculous. And only possible in USA, no offence intended.

In Asian countries too. The Ministry of Education would just ask the person to resign so as to make themselves look paragon by not firing the poor teacher.

I was one of the GEP students back in Primary School, but the schools refuse to entertain someone who asks too many questions. Started to lose interest in secondary school due to bullying and having a Mussolini incarnate as a principal (fat and dictatorial as the Italian facist), but still managed to scrape past my 'O' levels with Bs.

The academic orientation of schools is stupid. True to the fact that every child needs to have knowledge of the sciences and math, however skimming through the basics then drilling that pre-chewed meat into them is ridiculous.

What is more, the education system is dumbing down.......I remember writing 1000 word analyses for my Chemistry and Physics Practical exams, and now they are providing set-questions in a form of Q&A. The objective of doing it the hard way is to train quick analysis and review, followed by time-management in writing down an experiment report; WTF is wrong with you teachers?

[Paranoid Android]

While it seems unfair, we're kind of going backwards in culture with this kind of active internet community. Back then in any small town, all the locals would know each other and people would judge each other by every little thing.

If your store was the only store in the area that wasn't run by Catholics, people would avoid your business just because of that. Or if you were the immigrant in the area, people would avoid talking to you or associating anything with you.

It's kind of the same, discriminating teachers based on how they live their life.

I'm definitely not supportive of extreme discrimination, but this kind of activity towards 'filtering' the public sector staff to certain ideal stereotype is good for society to progress in a direction, and not to chaos/limitless freedom.

Teaching is a really sensitive and volatile service. The way people think are mostly influenced by their education.

Like for example: If my child's homeroom teacher was in the Occupy protest and was one of those that remained even after an eviction notice from the municipal government, I'd be pretty pissed and would start thinking about getting my child a different teacher or doing something about it. I don't know what that teacher would preach in class. I can't depend on my child to judge whether their teacher's staying on topic at school. Or if he/she is being objective or subjective.

Like most social categorizing, the fine line is too hard to draw. But a teacher saying the f-word or flirting or being an idiot on Facebook is definitely not something that should effect his/her employment.

--------
I've always been in the very highly rated elementary/secondary/post-secondary schools (thankfully to my parents, relatives and guardian) and somewhat oblivious to how bad teachers can be. My highschool teachers were most memorable and -awesome-. We'd meet in large groups after school year's over and have pizza, soccer, and stargazing with telescopes at the school field. The science dept. teachers once put on masks and suited up like Jabbawockeez and danced on the stage. Some of my teachers play MMORPGs when they're home. My English teacher would use irrelevant gestures whenever he talks, such as air-pelvic thrusts while talking about Lord of the Flies.

I'm misbehaved by my schools' standards. Probably an honor student in common schools. I was a short-tempered violent child when I was in primary school

Teaching as a profession is broken. It's role and purpose are invaluable but the way it's treated is as something to do when you have nothing better to do. There's people who are enthusiastic, well trained and competent. But they have to compete with unemployed directionless idiots because the job requirement is insanely low and the way the system works is experience based. No matter how bad of a teacher you are, 1 more year of teaching experience/inside connections > everything else.

Which works for most jobs, but not for teaching.

[Dhomochevsky]

This enforced morality is more of a general problem with your society, not strictly with schools. It's the main thing I don't like about the U.S. culture, no offence.

As for the other questions:
1.) all across the board. I have a feeling it also depends a lot on the student, how it works out. Some characters just don't get along.

2.) I learned to read early and read a lot. The result was, that I was way ahead of my class in some subjects that interested me. On the other hand I was really lazy and did not like studying in topics that did not interest me. Though this only started to occur when I reached middle school. So I had some subjects, in which I easily scored very good grades without doing anything at all and then some in which I scored mediocre grades by investing a bare minimum of effort.
I actually finished my whole school carreer like that, but really crashed and burned at my first attempt at university life. Turned out I had to learn how to learn first, because I never had to before and I couldn't get by with my previous strategy anymore... Should I blame that on the school system?
I lean more to blaming myself.

3.) My mom's a teacher in elementary school. I don't know about worthwhile, but it certainly looks like it is a very fullfilling job. And you have to be very involved and motivated to do it good.
If you treat it like a normal job, you inevitably fail as a teacher. I do think that because of this social status of the profession should be higher.
Here teachers are often seen as lazy because their official working hours are that of a student, school holydays included.
Of course no one sees the teacher working until midnight at home to prepare for the next school day and that most of holydays are spent writing certificates (which for elementary school look like a short science paper in psychology nowadays... one for every individual child...).

[Endless Soul]

Shades of the Moral Majority indeed.

I bet that any of these School Board people do all sorts of "questionable" things during their off hours. It's not just teachers either. a lot of companies these days are asking for Bookface login information if you even want to be hired by them.

1: I'd say I didn't really care about about my teachers. Looking back, however, I realize that the majority of the teachers I knew really cared about us.

2: I was considered a troublemaker. Sometimes that label was justified. Other times it wasn't (Like that time I stood up to the school bully, but I ended up in detention while the bully got to go on the class trip, but that's a story for another thread)

3: Absolutely.

Endless "Teachers are people too" Soul

[Paranoid Android]

Originally Posted by Endless Soul

It's not just teachers either. a lot of companies these days are asking for Bookface login information if you even want to be hired by them.

Are you serious? Good thing that's not apparent in the structural engineering industry yet =.= That's ridiculous. My facebook is acid. Everything from top to bottom is utter bullsh-t :P

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Paranoid Android

Are you serious? Good thing that's not apparent in the structural engineering industry yet =.= That's ridiculous. My facebook is acid. Everything from top to bottom is utter bullsh-t :P

I hadn't used my main Facebook account for a year. Plus I have like around 4-5. Should I declare that I don't have one at all?

[warita]

Originally Posted by Paranoid Android

I'm definitely not supportive of extreme discrimination, but this kind of activity towards 'filtering' the public sector staff to certain ideal stereotype is good for society to progress in a direction, and not to chaos/limitless freedom.

Thats what you would think. But I lived in USA for a while and what I noticed is, that the american society is overly preoccupied with what the others are doing. And this becomes a problem, when there is a general belief people ought to have high moral standards that are almost impossible to uphold (we are all humans after all) and instead of following them themselves, they are always on the lookout for who isnt.

It is the pinacle of hypocricy. How about caring less about what the others are doing and more about what is going on in your private life. Yeah, upholding moral standards is a nice thing, but that has to start at your own doorstep, not that of your neighbour!!!

[Paranoid Android]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

I hadn't used my main Facebook account for a year. Plus I have like around 4-5. Should I declare that I don't have one at all?

I turned my main one into a garbage dump after my feed was 80% stuff from people I could care less about. My personal one has no friends and I use it to follow e-celebrities and activities.

Originally Posted by warita

It is the pinacle of hypocricy. How about caring less about what the others are doing and more about what is going on in your private life. Yeah, upholding moral standards is a nice thing, but that has to start at your own doorstep, not that of your neighbour!!!

Yes it does seem pretty bad in many places in the states. The times that I appreciate social discrimination are those against people who do commit crimes, those who scam, those who cheat etc. I can't justify how those should be encouraged and some shouldn't be, but it's just an innate feeling.

[Endless Soul]

Originally Posted by Paranoid Android

Are you serious? Good thing that's not apparent in the structural engineering industry yet =.= That's ridiculous. My facebook is acid. Everything from top to bottom is utter bullsh-t :P

Yep.

Some employers ask job seekers to share their Facebook logins

I personally haven't come across that, especially in the HVAC CAD world, but it's really happening out there.

Originally Posted by warita

How about caring less about what the others are doing and more about what is going on in your private life. Yeah, upholding moral standards is a nice thing, but that has to start at your own doorstep, not that of your neighbour!!!

Well said.

Endless "Nosy neighbors" Soul

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by warita

that the american society is overly preoccupied with what the others are doing.

I thought it is pretty normal for people to want to gossip, because it is the "educated" thing to do to update on "current affairs".

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

The academic orientation of schools is stupid. True to the fact that every child needs to have knowledge of the sciences and math, however skimming through the basics then drilling that pre-chewed meat into them is ridiculous.

What is more, the education system is dumbing down.......I remember writing 1000 word analyses for my Chemistry and Physics Practical exams, and now they are providing set-questions in a form of Q&A. The objective of doing it the hard way is to train quick analysis and review, followed by time-management in writing down an experiment report; WTF is wrong with you teachers?

Do you have a better solution? The amount of knowledge that children need to learn today is greater than what we had to learn when we were in school, and that was greater than what our parents had to learn. It's inevitable that now it will seem that they're glossing over things and not getting into the fine details. And how has education funding changed? Today, schools are generally underfunded, and teachers are working in a hostile environment where parents are more likely to work against them than to support them. This is especially important when you consider that teachers can no longer dispense discipline to disruptive students.

Originally Posted by Paranoid Android

I'm definitely not supportive of extreme discrimination, but this kind of activity towards 'filtering' the public sector staff to certain ideal stereotype is good for society to progress in a direction, and not to chaos/limitless freedom.

It's great when you're the one determining what the "ideal stereotype" is. See the problem?

Originally Posted by Paranoid Android

Teaching is a really sensitive and volatile service. The way people think are mostly influenced by their education.

Nah, not these days. It's about what you see on television or the internet.

Originally Posted by Paranoid Android

Like for example: If my child's homeroom teacher was in the Occupy protest and was one of those that remained even after an eviction notice from the municipal government, I'd be pretty pissed and would start thinking about getting my child a different teacher or doing something about it. I don't know what that teacher would preach in class. I can't depend on my child to judge whether their teacher's staying on topic at school. Or if he/she is being objective or subjective.

This type of attitude is a problem. Does it not occur to you that a teacher could harbor various political or activist views, and not expose their students to it? That's called being professional. I'd love it if every single teacher were a saint, but I'd also love it if every single person that I dealt with each day were that way, too. Reality is that it won't happen. I say, let the teachers do their damn job and stop being so nosy about what they do on their own time. If they're effectively teaching and motivating students then I don't care what they're doing on their own time away from the students. If they need to be sexually promiscuous or break the law in various forms in order to stay sane and teach well, whatever - they should be judged on their job performance, not on their morality.

Granted, people love to be judgmental of others. I think they'd shut up and quit it very quickly if we started applying the same standards to everyone who is working. There would be mass firings and layoffs like you wouldn't believe...

Originally Posted by Paranoid Android

Teaching as a profession is broken. It's role and purpose are invaluable but the way it's treated is as something to do when you have nothing better to do.

Yeah, cool, blame the people who go into teaching. The crappy salary and lack of respect are certainly not going to attract many people to the profession, but the problem is far from limited to the teachers themselves. Parents need to take an interest in their children's education, they need to stop being so defensive if the teacher identifies a problem, and they need to stop being so suspicious and adversarial when dealing with teachers. It'd be nice if the education system could be better-funded, too.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

Do you have a better solution? The amount of knowledge that children need to learn today is greater than what we had to learn when we were in school, and that was greater than what our parents had to learn. It's inevitable that now it will seem that they're glossing over things and not getting into the fine details. And how has education funding changed?

Extend schooling hours? I do 7-5 back in highschool.

Academic schooling is really all about interest and time management. If the student doesn't like it, send him/her to a vocational institute to learn how to work. Simple as that.

Today, schools are generally underfunded, and teachers are working in a hostile environment where parents are more likely to work against them than to support them. This is especially important when you consider that teachers can no longer dispense discipline to disruptive students.

Not on my side though. Teachers are paid okay, and principals and school inspectors are ridiculously overpaid. I keep my philosophy straight when it comes to education vs money : if you don't like it, don't teach. Don't ruin other people's futures. If you want to teach because you enjoy it, congratulations on finding your passion; now push it through - whatever it takes.

[Paranoid Android]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

It's great when you're the one determining what the "ideal stereotype" is. See the problem?

That's not a problem. I'm justifying why the teachers are being fired. Because they don't fit other people's idealism. And I'm in support that there should be stereotyping.

Originally Posted by Ledgem

This type of attitude is a problem. Does it not occur to you that a teacher could harbor various political or activist views, and not expose their students to it?

It doesn't matter to me. This is a public service I'm paying for that's having an effect on my child. I don't want a criminal teaching my child. By ignoring the law, that specific group of occupy protestors ignored the eviction law that was issued by the government. They are people who take their viewpoints to the extreme and ignore social regulations. Their carelessness is something I will not tolerate as a parent.

Originally Posted by Ledgem

The crappy salary and lack of respect are certainly not going to attract many people to the profession, but the problem is far from limited to the teachers themselves. Parents need to take an interest in their children's education, they need to stop being so defensive if the teacher identifies a problem, and they need to stop being so suspicious and adversarial when dealing with teachers. It'd be nice if the education system could be better-funded, too.

Isn't that what I said? The profession is being terribly mistreated, it's placed as lower class profession than it should be.

[warita]

Originally Posted by Paranoid Android

They are people who take their viewpoints to the extreme and ignore social regulations. Their carelessness is something I will not tolerate as a parent.

Lol, Paranoid Android, how many kids do you have?

[Dhomochevsky]

Originally Posted by Paranoid Android

Teaching as a profession is broken. It's role and purpose are invaluable but the way it's treated is as something to do when you have nothing better to do. There's people who are enthusiastic, well trained and competent. But they have to compete with unemployed directionless idiots because the job requirement is insanely low and the way the system works is experience based.

What is the the basic requirement to become a teacher at a public school?
'unemployed directionless idiot' seems like a bad start...

In Germany, I think it's:
- complete the best possible school carreer (you can drop out of school at different times, but you have to stay until the end to become a teacher).
- then complete a university degree (in pedagogics + other subjects if you want to become a teacher at a higher school)
- then go through hands on training years at actual schools
- hope that the government eventually hires you, because teachers are civil servants and the gov doesn't like spending atm (at least not for education )

[disclaimer: I never tried to persue that path, there may be lower entry levels for the job]

[monsta666]

Originally Posted by Paranoid Android

Yes it does seem pretty bad in many places in the states. The times that I appreciate social discrimination are those against people who do commit crimes, those who scam, those who cheat etc. I can't justify how those should be encouraged and some shouldn't be, but it's just an innate feeling.

Well that is what background checks are for; if a person has to deal with vulnerable members of society or is put in a position of trust (such as a doctor or accountant) then you screen them that way. Another note to this and it should be said because I feel that US employers could be overzealous when it comes to conducting background checks is that checks should only be done if it necessary for the job in question. If such a job does not involve interacting with vulnerable members of society or trust or handling highly sensitive information then background checks are not needed.

At the end of the day a background check is a breach of privacy of sorts and should not be undertaken unless strictly necessary. It should not be used as a means of rejecting candidates. As for this issue, I think the real purpose of these Facebook or "personality checks" is to reject candidates under dubious grounds. Also as Ledgem already stated: if these standards were applied to everyone then there would be mass layoffs. The reason these employers can do this is they are bargaining from a position of strength. The employee needs the employer more than the employer needs them. This is especially true in this economic climate. So these actions are really an abuse of power.

I think, if people are to believe the reasons given then it is another case of people willing to sacrifice their freedoms/privacy for the sake of safety. Also this sort of thing is a slippery slope. If given a chance employers will try and abuse this power further.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

Extend schooling hours? I do 7-5 back in highschool.

That's going to cost you. Where's the money coming from? How will you raise the funds, and/or what services are you going to cut?

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

I keep my philosophy straight when it comes to education vs money : if you don't like it, don't teach. Don't ruin other people's futures. If you want to teach because you enjoy it, congratulations on finding your passion; now push it through - whatever it takes.

That isn't even a factor. Schools don't have the funding to hire enough teachers for the students that they have, or to secure enough learning materials for their students. That teachers are underpaid doesn't even factor in here, and it's really a minor issue by comparison. Everyone knows that a high student:teacher ratio makes for a poor learning experience.

Originally Posted by Paranoid Android

That's not a problem. I'm justifying why the teachers are being fired. Because they don't fit other people's idealism. And I'm in support that there should be stereotyping.

I know. I'm telling you why the idea stinks and why it shouldn't happen.

Originally Posted by Paranoid Android

It doesn't matter to me. This is a public service I'm paying for that's having an effect on my child.

Wrong. It's a public service that we are all paying for, not just you. What you are paying for is a teacher, that is someone who will teach your child. You are not paying for a saint. Why the hell do you care what they do on their own time? How would you like it if people judged your work performance on your personal life?

Originally Posted by Paranoid Android

I don't want a criminal teaching my child. By ignoring the law, that specific group of occupy protestors ignored the eviction law that was issued by the government. They are people who take their viewpoints to the extreme and ignore social regulations. Their carelessness is something I will not tolerate as a parent.

I don't care about your views on the OWS movement, I'm bothered by this short-sightedness that you're displaying. Are we building teachers to order? OK, I don't want any teachers who have anything to do with Christianity, I don't want teachers who are overweight but because I'm insecure I also don't want any who are too fit, I don't want teachers who have ever smoked or touched alcohol, I don't want teachers who drive SUVs, and - why not? - I only want anime fans to be hired.

Woah, teacher shortage! Damn those jerks, why don't more people want to go into teaching? But we can only have the ideal stereotype teaching our children! OK, I'm willing to negotiate - they don't have to be anime fans, but they must watch at least one series before speaking a word to my child.

Here's an idea for you. How about we let teachers do their damn job, and if your child is exposed to anything that you disagree with, you talk to your kid about it. Your child's teacher attended a protest that you disagree with and your kid found out about it, and asks you about it? Instead of pussyfooting around it and trying to keep your kid blind to the events of the world around them, how about you talk to them about it? How about you be the role model for your child?

Let me tell you, I think that your "ideal stereotype" is a nightmare. I would hope that my children would encounter such teachers for their exposure and development, but I would be horrified if every single teacher were that way.

[Kyuu]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

Academic schooling is really all about interest and time management. If the student doesn't like it, send him/her to a vocational institute to learn how to work. Simple as that.

Too bad that's not an option in the states. There exists the general formula of elementary school, middle school, high school, college. That's really what's being sold over here. Unfortunately, there exists a cumulative student debt exceeding $1 trillion (and counting) - and limited job opportunities after schooling.