Character discussion - Ange

[Klashikari]

The purpose of this thread is to provide a place to discuss all things Ange related.
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[AmyElizzabeth]

I think I'm one of the few who doesn't like Ange for no reason...

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by AmyElizzabeth

I think I'm one of the few who doesn't like Ange for no reason...

Apparently there are many people who don't like Ange. I found more people not liking her after the anime came out, before then it seemed as if everybody and their grandmom loved Ange. ^^;

[littlegal100]

I'm rather Neutral towards Ange. She's a good character, very sympathetic although I did not find her very interesting in terms of personality.

[SilverSyko]

Having only one episode (EP4) to develop her character so far kinda makes it tough to come to a major conclusion on her yet.

First time I saw her I found her to be pretty badass, but as things progressed she showed herself to have a pretty robotic personality. But that's not hard imagine considering how she grew up after the events of EP3.

Though her scene with Battler was touching.~

[KanonTheFurniture]

Originally Posted by Maho Momo

Apparently there are many people who don't like Ange. I found more people not liking her after the anime came out, before then it seemed as if everybody and their grandmom loved Ange. ^^;

I'm actually the opposite. I found her bland and Mary Sueish (not in her actions, but in her whole woe-is-me backstory and draaaaaaaaaaaaagging the beginning of EP4) in the VN, but the Anime actually made me like her more. Combination of her voice and trimming down those flashbacks and 1998 scenes, I think (the only parts of EP4 I think the Anime handled well). Her entrance in episode 18 was enough to give her like 20+ coolness points for me, actually XD

Still, she's not really up there in my list of favorites. I tend not to pity characters and their situations when I feel like the 'pity me' card is being shoved down my throat...but I can appreciate some of the cool stuff she did, and particularly her sacrifice that the Anime butchered. She knew it wouldn't be able to save her, the Ange of 1998, but she did it anyways, and that deserves credit in my opinion. Overall, though, even if she's not traditionally 'emo', her emotionless personality and general blandness doesn't put her on track as one of my favorites...but I don't hate her, either.

For what it's worth, I also feel like she was one of the best and most consistently well-animated characters in the series. I'm not sure why that is, but I can only really remember one QUALITY Ange scene (where her chest was bigger than her head). For the most part she seemed to be animated well, and I like her Anime design a lot more than her VN one (though I feel that way about most characters, she stands out in particular).

[geovanny1991]

Spoiler for Possible Spoiler?:

I quite liked Ange, or at least I liked the visual novel Ange. I found that, as has been previously alluded to by Silver over here, her Anime version didn't properly flesh out the character; especially her relationship with Maria and the other members of the Beatrice alliance (I can't remember the proper term, magic --- [?]) such as Mammon. For example, in the VN we see that Ange does actually have another mode from just her action movie aggressive or being sad. e.g. The scene where the seven stakes, Maria, and Sakutaroa are playing tag while Ange is trying to get her mind off studying and the overall gloom of school. Its a short scene, but I find it was one of those crucial spots in showing that Ange was able to find a bit of happiness even in her situation. As compared to the Anime where she basically makes her speedy entrance in the end of the third arc and blows up a couple of episodes afterwards.

Hopefully they'll release an ova for the extra valentine's tip and touch on Ange some more.

[Klashikari]

I agree: Ange wasn't particularly well adapted, as I personally saw her more "emotionally numb" in the anime than in the game. (Lack of certain scenes, but generally speaking, her emotions were quite stoic).
Actually, what I liked with Ange is how the progression of her emotional state is growing, without being out of character or absurdely random. If I were to see her smiling character sprite right from the start without any build up, I would certainly be sort of disturbed.

Anyway, I think that Ange is the character that got terribly mistaken due to how her past was written (let's face it: the way how it was redundant at times had an impact on the appreciation of the character as a whole for some reason), which rather leaves to some misunderstanding I guess.

Personally, I think she is one of the most interesting and intricate characters of the franchise. Part of it is of course how she had it rough, but I personally was more interested by her mindset growing over time. Any character with remotely the same kind of backstory would just turn into mop or whatever, but that wasn't actually the case for her. She started to be totally "indifferent" at first after losing so much with Eva, then progressively, she understood the "concept of magic" (or probably: how "love" can change a given truth).
That is to say, if I were to define Ange of 1998/meta world, I believe she is nowhere close to the "emo character" or quite unconventional. She never lamented on her fate, nor she was acting like a mop. Instead, she could go forward, even if she won't have what she has longed for 12 years. That is quite something for someone that basically lost everything.

Delusional? I don't exactly think so: the way how she expresses herself regarding Sakutarou and the sisters makes me think she has a very distinct idea of "what they are" in her mind, but that doesn't mean she has to go all pragmatic and deny them. That is sort of the same of people believing in superstition in our era, or people talking to themselves when alone at times.

Anyway, beyond her interesting background and growth, she was also quite entertaining with her jabs and bad ass side, but also a very nice personalty, sort of an all rounder.

[Thunder Book]

I think her story was a little rushed, personally.

Which is weird, because I found her flashbacks in Episode 4 to drag on a lot.

[Spartanz1170]

Not enough Ange Love in this thread!

Ange was a great character that was just used by Bernkastel she almost had no emotion until she "died" in EP4. At least it gave Battler the determination and will along with his promise to Beato to see this through to the end.

[Renall]

I liked where he was going with her, until he just sort of stopped. It feels like he kind of gave up on certain aspects at some point toward the end. Considering how much buildup there was and how much of ep4 belonged to Ange, you'd figure it would be going somewhere else. While some people might call it crazy, I think he could have stretched out 1998 a lot more. Not necessarily through more flashbacks, of course. I don't see why anything really had to be resolved in the way it was by the end there.

She's a very intellectual character, in contrast to Battler, yet is ironically less emotionally stable than he is (even though he's more emotionally expressive). I was hoping for more narration from her point of view.

[AudriSampson]

Im thinking Ange can be compared to Shion in Higurashi. In Higurashi we didnt get a great widespread look at her until she got her own arc that was included in the first season of the anime. I kinda see Ange as incomplete as Shion was in the Higurashi arc she was introduced in. Im sure in one of the upcoming games we'll get a great look at her and she will be totally flushed out. Until then she is still the best of the Ushiromiyas.

[Digdri]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Anyway, I think that Ange is the character that got terribly mistaken due to how her past was written (let's face it: the way how it was redundant at times had an impact on the appreciation of the character as a whole for some reason), which rather leaves to some misunderstanding I guess.

Personally, I think she is one of the most interesting and intricate characters of the franchise. Part of it is of course how she had it rough, but I personally was more interested by her mindset growing over time. [...]

I guess you are right that the first part of EP4 was overdoing what it was meant to accomplish but I think there is more to this problem. I thought about this for a while because I was always irritated how much controversy the interpretation of this character was causing in the community.

As this train of thoughts got a little longer as intended I will put this in spoilers to avoid wall of text annoyance for those not so interested this kind of meta stuff

Spoiler for space:

I think one problem that mixes with the dragging presentation in Anges story is that it mimics a specify popular type of storytelling and inherits its usual disadvantages.
Namely this double take on Maria's and Ange's background story really fits many of the tropes of those "crying game" VNs. And its no wonder Ryu07 puts aspects of in all his game, as this genre is highly popular in Japan (look at all this hype all these KyoAni VN adaption are causing again and again) and its even stated that the Key novels were a major influence for his When They Cry concept.
And there is really much stuff that reminded me of those stories. We have a absolute worst-case childhood for both and even getting older doesn't seem give Ange any luck until see meets Bern. We have this hair clips as a background story connection memento (which seems to be a must have item for any tragic character in this stories) incl. a flashback where she got it in her happier days. We have the verbal tick and to-cute-to-be-true behavior in Maria's dairy stories. There is this "wise man talking" of characters normally too childish and naive for this kind of dialogs. etc. etc.
Well to be fair the stories turns some of this tropes on its head - e.g. the "Uuuu~" isn't only used for the lulz (or should I say the cutez? ^^) and otherwise ignored be everyone but is are made a relevant plot point - but many of this parts are played straight so you cannot call it a complete deconstruction either.

Don't get me wrong: I don't want to criticize the story or this particular style with my remark. I actually think its quite remarkable that he fit this aspects into a story meant to be much more realistic and dark than the usual idealistic pseudo-fantasy settings of many Utsuges and IMO really makes them convincing while ironically spinning a tale dealing with so many fantastic elements at the same time.
But its still is a fact that this type of storytelling is met with much controversy by fans. Its major flaw seem to be that its goal and significance is so heavy tied to question if it "works" for the individual person (as in willing suspension of disbelief etc.). And as a result those who like it talk about an emotional rewarding experience while those who don't like it call it cheap and manipulative storytelling.

Quite reminiscent of all this Ange fan boys and Ange haters, isn't it? Perhaps its just this... a two-edged sword sort of story and the fans to be expected reaction to this.


I also see another problem about Ange in the way her character development is actually handled.
I agree with you that Ange has some of the furthest ways of character developments in Umineko.... I would even dare to say that besides Battler and Beato there isn't so much actually development for most of the other characters (as in something in their mindset is changing) and more of an extension of their characterization by details we simple were not told before (but which were this way even before everything started).
But my problem with this while reading EP4 was that its still hard at times to understand her thinking as she seem so fundamentally contradicting in her world view and at times her explanations seem more like self justification then actually logic (e.g. how white magic is so much "holier" then black magic but she is doing the same nasty stuff with it part ways... more like "my way is the better way").
And last but not least we are denied some of her important insights as the reader. There is this big light bulb flashing up before she goes to the island - metaphorical speaking - but we don't see what it's about. Its difficult to feel sympathy for a character if you are not allowed to follow their conclusions to the end.


And about this "dragginess" for the Ange part many complain about: Many people here seemed to come to the conclusion that Anges introduction as one part of the set of background stories for various characters was way to long-winded and had not enough influence and meaning to the "actual" game-board story to justify this big part in EP4, but I would disagree.
IMO this story was such a big part of the episode because it's not only meant to characterize Ange / Maria / Rosa and built up the connection to Battler but it's really a wider approach to the specific world view and conceptional depth this tale tries to tackle.
One thing I realized: EP1/2 gave you this big theme of detective work vs. magic reality and starts the confusion. EP3 gives you some tools to make sense out of its basic construction with Virgilias cat box and court analogies and gives you a reason to reflect on this.
But Ange is the first character to actually deal with the confusion problems resulting from merging those ideas and tries to balance the contradicting perspective to find answers (while Battler simply avoids this as a whole at this point). Also she is the first person to deal with the "Without love..." which pops up everywhere later on.
So perhaps Ryu07 gave so much time to this and told the story in so small steps because its so important for the whole concept of Umineko or perhaps even the solution.
After all EP1-4 are once again meant to be "complete" from the puzzle solving angle so somewhere he had to (cryptically) place hints for all his meta themes and conceptions later on.

I think the solution to this story won't be like "Oh X was the mastermind. Now all makes sense." but this time he really messes with the heads of the fans by testing their conceptional understanding of his "great moral" behind everything and the meta analysis he is constructing about detective fiction. (at least my take on this)
The more I read in his essay-style extra TIPs the more I got the feeling this is some big experiment for him. He seems to force the problems and result of his analytical ideas directly onto the readers on so many levels.
"Is red reliable?", "Are you ready to believe what wasn't really proven?", "Does this tale even make sense at all?", the whole stopping-to-think-discussion... that all stuff that's no only relevant to Battler but to the way the reader deals with this games as well.

Perhaps Ange's story is more of a valuable key to all this than meets the eye and this part isn't so boring at all when you finally realize what it was meant to tell you :P

[Pika_power]

In retrospect, I think I dislike Ange, but when I read through her story, I don't find it lagging or dull. I enjoyed it as much as the rest of Umineko. So I guess I'm torn on her. I expect to see some more of her later on.

Perhaps the lack of emotional expressions for her is why people consider her 'emo'.

[SonozakiUshiromiya]

I think Klash and Digdri hit the nail on the head. And Ange's my top fav Umineko character. Being the 'Witch of Ressurection' is impressive in its own right.

[beatler556]

I think Ange was a pretty good character but I felt her story dragged on a bit. I guess that's why I only read episode 4 once, XD

[Mikachiru]

Ange is okay. She's definitely better than Erika and Bern IMO. But she's not so great than what she used to be hyped up to be. Everyone loved her and was making such a big deal out of her, kinda like Erika before EP 5 was released only I actually like Ange.

Ange is good. Just not da bess. :3

[Judoh]

According to this female character flowchart. (which doesn't list the brother complex as a character trope) Ange is either a "Michelle Rodriguez", a "Mary Sue", or an "Ideal woman". Hmmmmmmm....

But in all seriousness despite how much her story can drag on Ange is pretty tough and I think she has more going for her than a lot of female characters. Hey! at least she has conflict!

[Judoh]

woops! I forgot people doubt episode 4's end roll! She could also be a "Strong female character". And that's "strong" implying she's tough not strong as in well developed.

[C-chan]

When I knew her story, I didn't thought much of her delusions and magical friends. To me, she's a lonely girl. She and her aunt didn't went well, her beloved brother and parents died, and she had problems in her class.

I liked her personality, the silent but bold type. She's dilligent as well and sort of like a detective to me. Her theories aren't bad. I need more development from her though. Like being able to make friends and have a happy like unlike her sad and lonely life.