[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[chronotrig]

@rogerpepitone:

Spoiler for size:

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

chronotrig: Sayo hasn't seen Battler in many years. Why would she have any idea how likely it is that he'd accept / reject witches?

Well, for one thing, what kind of guy Battler's age would accept witches easily, without proof? She was able to trick Maria will little magic tricks, but she'd have to be an idiot to think that would work for Battler.

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

In your hypothesis, why is it that the first letter from Beatrice is the same across all Episodes; the final letter in Episodes 1 and 2 are extremely similar, but the various murders are all over the map?

The first letter from Beatrice is part of the plan, to give everyone a fair shot at solving the epitaph before the 9th twilight. It didn't need to be written like that, but that's one way it works. I think the reason the murders are so random is because Sayo isn't omnipotent. In EP1, she tries to kill the six people in the mansion, but fails with Natsuhi because of the charm and is forced to kill Shannon too. In EP2, she's lucky to find and/or lure the 7 siblings plus spouses into the chapel, and Rosa probably left early or was threatened into silence (we know that Rosa tends to go to bed early or else fall asleep in the other episodes). In EP3, she was only able get Gohda, Kumasawa, and Genji on their own (though it might be that Kumasawa figured the plan out and tried to stop her), so she was forced to use up the trump cards of Kinzo, Shannon, and Kanon all in the first twilight. It's also possible that she found Kinzo's burnt corpse earlier in this episode, which made her decide to kill off Kanon and Shannon earlier to find out who did it (see my Nanjo EP1 theory). In EP4, the lie about Kinzo was about to be revealed. Just having such a lie revealed would strengthen the toxin in the area (right after you've seen one hoax, you'd be less inclined to believe in another one). Also, she might have wanted to keep up the lie about Kinzo out of some sense of obligation to him. Either way, she was forced to take action quickly to prevent word of this from reaching Battler. For the only time in any Umineko game, the first twilight clearly happens in a room with more than six people, and the majority of the survivors then become Beatrice's prisoners. She can then use their children as hostages and force them to play along with her magic story (the first time actual magic is mentioned in detail is just before Kyrie dies, when everyone else has just been killed in front of her and someone is making a very loud and repeated noise nearby, possibly gunshots).

After the first twilight, Sayo just kills whoever she can get her hands on, making sure to follow the second twilight and add the stakes when needed.

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

Personally, I can't see a person who's that disconnected enough from reality as being able to carry out all the murders. Ange honestly did expect the stakes to kill the other students, and Sayo had an even stronger belief? Such a person would far more likely get caught when her spells didn't work. (But such a person can make a very good pawn or scapegoat.)

Well, if you count some of what meta-Beatrice has said as a hint, Sayo believed that there was still too much toxin in the area for Beatrice to use her powers until the completion of the ceremony and Beatrice's resurrection. So Sayo probably wouldn't have tried any actual "magic" except the magic of taking on one of your furniture's personalities. Like Ange at first, she believes that all the effects of her spells will only be visible by her, so she won't try anything stupid.

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

Also, in Episode 5, Virgilia states that Beatrice doesn't care about the gold being found or the murders occurring. Your Sayo does specifically want the gold found.

No, that's the whole point of this. Sayo doesn't care whether the gold is found or not, because either way gets them to the tenth twilight and the four presents. She does make sure to give them a fair chance at solving the epitaph, probably both to make the risk (and therefore, the magic power by Kinzo's theory) stronger, and because having them think about the epitaph will make it easier for Battler to figure out that this whole event is following the epitaph.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

However your assessment of what Beatrice wants from Battler is different imho. It is true that from one side she puts a great effort into making him believe in witch's existence. However it looks like her ultimate goal is the total opposite. We have seen that she doesn't really wants to "win", from the ending of EP3 till EP5 this appears quite clear. She doesn't really want Battler to acknowledge witches. If that was her objective she would have simply won in EP3. Ange was there because Beatrice allowed her to enter. In EP6 we learn that the GM has the power to kick outside even a voyager witch. And then again it was explained that after EP2 Beatrice digressed in that horrible feast only to make Battler rage and find new strength. And it was also said that she added Ronove and Virgilia in the picture to help him. Virgilia even gave Battler the cat box explanation, and Virgilia keeps saying that she never tells Battler anything that Beatrice doesn't want him to know.

You're talking about meta-Beatrice and meta-Battler; I'm talking about Sayo's furniture Beatrice and piece Battler. Meta-Beatrice wants meta-Battler to learn the truth, and is playing the part of furniture Beatrice as a hint to him. This is probably because, unlike furniture Beatrice, meta-Beatrice knows that the epitaph is a lie. She's seen games like EP3, and knows that nothing magical happens when the gold is discovered. She knows that everyone in the story ends up dead in the end.

@Ssol: My Nanjo theory for EP1 probably fits this theory pretty well, though it might need some changes. I've just tried to explain the causes of the first twilights, though not the how of EP3's yet. Done that one before though.

[Aethos]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Finally. I feel very good about this. I think this might solve the biggest question of the game.

Spoiler for The answer?:

Sayo believes in the epitaph.

Spoiler for First goal:

There are two big problems with my theory so far. First, there's no reason for Sayo to commit the crime, and she doesn't seem to be the kind of person who would murder people for any reason, much less the people she loves.
Second, in EP5, Battler says the epitaph murders are like kids playing for fun, where they don't really care too much who wins or loses. How could anyone carrying out the epitaph killings not care whether the gold was found or not?

If you accept my theory so far, then it's clear that Sayo truly does believe in many kinds of magic, and if Maria's grimoire is any hint, "Beatrice" got a lot of her magic theory from books like those in Kinzo's study. If she believes that those truly describe magic, why couldn't she believe the same for the epitaph? In other words, by enacting the killings depicted in the epitaph, you will reach the tenth twilight, and gain the four treasures there:
All of the gold
The revival of all the dead
Even the love that was lost
The witch will be put to sleep for all eternity. Sleep in peace, Beatrice.

Sayo is willing to kill everyone because of the second treasure, but it's the third treasure she's really after. I'll go into this later, but her greatest goal is probably to be loved by the first person she fell in love with 6 years ago, Battler. Judging by Shannon's and Kanon's conversations, it might also be that she believes the furniture will exist in the Golden Land and be able to keep their relationships with Jessica and George.

And why does she not care whether she wins or loses?
At the tenth twilight, the journey shall end, and you should reach the village of gold.
Written on the door to the room with the hidden gold in old-looking paint, confirming that this room is the village of gold or Golden Land from the tenth twilight. Virgilia said in red that the gold already belongs to Beatrice, so Sayo must know about this room and the marking on the door. In other words, if the epitaph is solved and someone reaches this hidden room, the tenth twilight has been reached anyways, and the four gifts will be given out. So whether the gold is discovered or not, Sayo will still gain Battler's love without having any deaths on her conscience.

Spoiler for Second goal:

Furthermore, in part because she really wins either way, and in part because she gave Beatrice a daring, risk-taking personality to match Battler's, she decides to place another bet. Though she understands it's probably impossible, Sayo's Beatrice personality wants Battler to believe that she is a witch. In other words, on top of carrying out the epitaph, she wants to try and remove all the anti-magic toxin from Battler, bringing him into her own world. Put even more simply, she's trying to convert him, the man she loves. She's doing the same thing she did with Maria by performing simple magic tricks.

Of course, she's no fool, and realizes how near impossible it will be to convert Battler, so she sets up a series of "impossible" closed rooms and makes sure Battler lives until the end so that he sees all of them. Everything is dressed up to look like magic, and she even follows a consistent set of magical rules, such as the pendant on Natsuhi's door. And, if she ever gets the chance, she will either show up as the witch herself and explain the magic to Battler or use another person to do so. If Battler can't think of a good logical explanation, he'll be forced to accept the only other one offered...well, that's her theory. It works better in some games than others.

Spoiler for Leadup:

As many people have suspected and EP6 seems to support, it's likely that Sayo fell in love with Battler 6 years previous. She then either created or adapted a personality that she thought Battler would like. Her version of Beatrice is bold, blonde and bouncy, and a risk taker, after all. If the double Beatrice scenes of EP6 are any hint, she already had a full-fledged Beatrice furniture that matched Battler perfectly before this happened. This Beatrice furniture was the one behind the pranks around the mansion, whose goal was to wipe out the toxin by making people believe in her. However, Battler left the family, and stayed away for too long.

For simplicity's sake, let's assume that Kanon was Kinzo's idea. If he actually went out of his way to create a pseudo-religion to alter people's personalities with, it's not impossible that he would experiment with switching someone's gender as a stepping stone. Eventually, Sayo starts to forget about Battler, especially with George right in front of Shannon. Sayo falls in love as Shannon, and the Beatrice personality is greatly weakened temporarily as Sayo gives up on Battler. Then, Jessica starts making advances with Kanon. The character Shannon would want Kanon to share the feeling of love, so Sayo makes one character support the other. However, her obvious reservations are clearly voiced by Kanon, who eventually rejects Jessica for Jessica's own good. Sayo probably felt a connection with Jessica, however, because of the similar "alternate self" they both create.

Then, Sayo hears that Battler will be coming in 1986, and the Beatrice personality comes into the forefront. Sayo is no fool, and realizes that as much as she may want a relationship with one of the cousins, it will destroy the other two furniture. George is about to propose to Shannon, so Sayo has to settle things at this family conference. Apparently, she has the strongest feelings for Battler, since he is the clear focus for the epitaph murders.

I'm feeling pretty confident that this is right, though the details might need some tweaking. This could either explain pretty much everything by itself, or have a second culprit as well. Anyone see a problem?

Spoiler for well:

But if Shannon is in love with Battler why would she be jumping all over George every arc. That doesn't make sense at all.

[Kitsu]

It's because Shannon =/= Sayo in this theory.
The persona Shannon, as well as Kanon in this case (and Beatrice), are 'made-up'. Sayo acts as those three personalitys and creates the illusions that they exist. Maybe they are indeed alive in her head and she believes if she acts as Kanon, Kanon really exists but well...
Anyway Shannon loves indeed George, Kanon loves Jessica etc. They are different from "Sayo"

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Aethos

Spoiler for well:

But if Shannon is in love with Battler why would she be jumping all over George every arc. That doesn't make sense at all.

Battler had left the Ushiromiya family for at least 3 years before Shannon fell in love with George, and there was no guarantee that he'd ever come back. In fact, it seems even he didn't plan on coming back most of the time. Sayo gave up on Battler and, very slowly, started up a relationship with George with her Shannon personality. Sayo probably is in love with George too, and since she believes that her furniture's personalities are real, the Shannon personality continues to feel and show that love for George. I don't think Sayo only really loves Battler or anything like that. I think she just can't make up her mind among anyone. Since she's only one person, no matter who she chooses, at least one other person is going to be very badly hurt.

[Jan-Poo]

So you think that Meta-Beatrice's purpose differs from Sayo's purpose? I personally do not think so. There are hints that make me think otherwise. The first is the message in the bottle.

If her purpose really is to create a legend and make everyone believe in the witch I think she would have acted like a certain nurse. Instead she narrates a story and then asks to find out the truth. The mere fact she asks that, is like outing herself: "what I told you now is a lie, find the truth".

The other reason is her pushing to find the solution of the epitaph. Because the true solution is counterproductive from a fantasy side. A witch would rather make you think that the epitaph describes a gruesome ritual where everyone must be sacrificed in order to resurrect Beatrice from the death, so that she can then resurrect everyone and bring them to a magical world called golden land. Incidentally this is actually what Maria believes in.

But by the time you solve the riddle you learn that such interpretation is only rubbish. It's just a riddle and a worthless one. You don't need to kill anyone, and the golden land is just a room with 1000 gold ingots inside.

They are not definitive proofs but to me it's more than enough to conclude that Beatrice's real purpose is to make people find the truth by overcoming the illusion.

[chronotrig]

@Jan-poo:

Spoiler for size:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

So you think that Meta-Beatrice's purpose differs from Sayo's purpose? I personally do not think so. There are hints that make me think otherwise. The first is the message in the bottle.

If her purpose really is to create a legend and make everyone believe in the witch I think she would have acted like a certain nurse. Instead she narrates a story and then asks to find out the truth. The mere fact she asks that, is like outing herself: "what I told you now is a lie, find the truth".

That would only be outing herself if she said "I am the witch, this is not the truth." However, she uses Maria's name for some reason, right? I think the reason for this bottle is because of what she believes the Golden Land is. It's always likened to some kind of heaven, definitely not a place here on this earth. She doesn't believe that everyone will be revived on the island.

So, she plans out the biggest bit of magic of her entire life, magic that will be impossible to break for all eternity: make the entire island one massive closed room. She knows that this will become a sensational case, and she believes that there will be very little evidence left behind, though she might not know about the actual explosion. If she has played her cards right and created a seemingly impossible crime, one that even the detectives who come to the scene will be baffled by, then the only explanation for this bizarre event will be the one contained in that bottle. The last line is a dare: everyone, try and solve this if you can.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

The other reason is her pushing to find the solution of the epitaph. Because the true solution is counterproductive from a fantasy side. A witch would rather make you think that the epitaph describes a gruesome ritual where everyone must be sacrificed in order to resurrect Beatrice from the death, so that she can then resurrect everyone and bring them to a magical world called golden land. Incidentally this is actually what Maria believes in.

But by the time you solve the riddle you learn that such interpretation is only rubbish. It's just a riddle and a worthless one. You don't need to kill anyone, and the golden land is just a room with 1000 gold ingots inside.

I think you're wrong here. Beatrice already knows the location of the gold according to Virgilia, so she presumably knows the solution to the epitaph as well. However, if you look at actual "magical theory" across ancient cultures, you'd be surprised how much they rely on double meanings for words and passages. Just try looking at the notes in Negima, they have loads of this stuff. Just because there's a non-magical meaning doesn't mean that the magical one doesn't exist, and in fact, the non-magical meaning is often given as a justification for the magical one. The ancients loved patterns.

[rogerpepitone]

;　ＸにもＹにも。@
;　碑文殺人にも碑文の謎にも、ベアトには何も意味がない。\
`Both X and Y.`@
`Both the epitaph murders and the epitaph's riddle mean nothing to Beato.`\

In episode 1, would she even notice the charm on Natushi's door? It's on the inside, and the room was dark. Sayo could have gotten Natsuhi out on some pretext (knocked or made a phone call, saying Krauss wanted her), then shot Natsuhi once they were out. Or she could have killed Eva and Hideyoshi, using the wire cutters to get into their room, if need be.

And by "all over the map", I was referring to the fact that where the bodies are found varies heavily.

And much of it ceases to be an impossible mystery once everyone dies. Without the testimony of a survivor to say that the chain was still set right before they discovered the bodies, E1T2 becomes "killer used wire cutters to get into the bedroom, then stabbed Eva & Hideyoshi as they slept.". The episode as a whole could be "Jessica killed everyone, threw her cousins into the ocean, then killed herself.".

[Jan-Poo]

@Chrono
You have bizarre interpretation of the final request of the message in the bottles. The way it's worded doesn't sound like a challenge at all but like a sincere request. It's not like she says "try to find another explanation if you can", she says "please find the truth that's my only wish"
So I don't agree with that. It doesn't matter how much you try to rationalize it, evidence is against you.

As for the second issue, even if Beatrice knows the true meaning of the epitaph that's no reason to make it know to the others. The double meaning you mention works for persons that already believe in magic. But for those who have magitoxin it is just counterproductive. Give to someone who doesn't believe in magic a magical explanation and a realistic explanation for the same event, and they'll dismiss the magical one as a lie without a second thought.
If Beatrice doesn't realize that, then she's stupid. But I don't think she is.

[ijriims]

Precisely speaking, it would not be Battler realizing the truth, since he was dead. It would be the living people, Ange to realize the truth behind the incident.

EDIT: Oh, I was talking about a question on what is the purpose of the story a few pages ago.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

Personally, I can't see a person who's that disconnected enough from reality as being able to carry out all the murders. Ange honestly did expect the stakes to kill the other students, and Sayo had an even stronger belief? Such a person would far more likely get caught when her spells didn't work. (But such a person can make a very good pawn or scapegoat.)

If Ange were truly delusional, she probably would've imagined the other students being killed. She was actively grounded in reality enough to understand that this wasn't actually possible, which is why the Stakes said they couldn't do anything she couldn't do herself. Maria instinctively has the same understanding with the Sakutarou issue; if he's a magical being, or even merely imaginary, his physical destruction (or loss, if she's lying) shouldn't matter. But she sort of understands the real reason, albeit in a more childish way than Ange did at an older age.

The problem with Meta-Beatrice's objective is that it cannot be IDENTICAL to the objective of the board-"Beatrice," though it can be ESSENTIALLY SIMILAR. Instinctively, we understand this has to be true.

Meta-Beatrice:

• Is interested specifically, and directly, in Battler. She challenges him outright and invites him to her world.
• Is specifically interested in vexing Battler with impossible scenarios.
• Seems to have no particular favoritism for any of the pieces, other than Battler himself.
• Does not seem to care if the epitaph is actually solved on the board.
• Claims to be the same witch who met Kinzo.
• Wants the truth to be discovered, apparently by Meta-Battler himself.

But "Beatrice":

• Is interested specifically, but indirectly, in Battler. Nothing we see or that Battler himself finds directly identifies that Beatrice is specifically interested in him other than their conversation in ep4.
• Creates scenarios which have the appearance of magic, but not all of which seem to be meant to appear as impossible puzzles. They mostly become such when the meta-world intrudes on them, as without red most of them can be explained with an alternative theory.
• Clearly plays favorites with certain pieces, notably Maria.
• May actually care that the epitaph is discovered, but doesn't necessarily seem to be trying to solve it herself (either she wants someone else to do it for a particular reason, or she already has).
• Obviously can't be the witch Kinzo met.
• Wants the truth to be discovered, but it isn't clear by whom. The messages in bottles are addressed to an audience who has no way of actually finding the truth, as far as we know.

Something is up here, I think. There's sufficient similarities to understand how one follows from the other, but the way Meta-Battler uncovers the truth is completely impossible for Piece-Battler to utilize. So who was she trying to convince? Of what?

[chronotrig]

@rogerpepitone:

Spoiler for size:

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

;　ＸにもＹにも。@
;　碑文殺人にも碑文の謎にも、ベアトには何も意味がない。\
`Both X and Y.`@
`Both the epitaph murders and the epitaph's riddle mean nothing to Beato.`\

That's true. She doesn't really care too much whether the epitaph is solved or not. This line means "she has nothing to gain from completing the epitaph murders, and she has nothing to gain from the epitaph being solved". Because either way, she'll reach the golden land. X+Y>0.

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

In episode 1, would she even notice the charm on Natushi's door? It's on the inside, and the room was dark. Sayo could have gotten Natsuhi out on some pretext (knocked or made a phone call, saying Krauss wanted her), then shot Natsuhi once they were out. Or she could have killed Eva and Hideyoshi, using the wire cutters to get into their room, if need be.

The charm was hanging from the doorknob, right? It's pretty easy to imagine that you'd notice something hanging from a doorknob when you open the door. It would probably swing a bit and make some sort of sound as it hit the door. She couldn't have killed both Eva and Hideyoshi if Natsuhi was to be the sixth victim, and I doubt she'd try sneaking into their room and killing one of them without the other noticing.

She couldn't kill Natsuhi because she's trying to convince Battler that magic is real. Battler wouldn't know that she'd tricked Natsuhi to walk outside the room. He'd just see that Natsuhi's little charm hadn't done her any good, assuming Jessica brought up the subject sometime.

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

And by "all over the map", I was referring to the fact that where the bodies are found varies heavily.

That's because Sayo doesn't really care where the corpses are found. That's not part of the epitaph, it's her own desire to create closed rooms. Since it's near impossible to think of a doable closed room in advance, she'd be forced to wing it each time. In EP1, she ran out of time because of the deal with Natsuhi and faking her own corpse at the last second, so she just stuck them in the shed. However, for EP3, she needed to create the chain of closed rooms to hide the fact that she was actually alive in the last one as Kanon (still not sure which EP3 explanation I like most). In EP2, I think the Halloween party was something the siblings set up to get the truth out of Maria, so Beatrice just played along with that theme and left the siblings in there. Beatrice gave Maria the key in the first place, so she might have planned for this. The chapel was a ready-made closed room anyways, since only Rosa knew that everyone had gone in there together with the key.

Spoiler for theory:

After midnight, Rosa took the key from Maria's envelope and unlocked the chapel with it to let the siblings in. This is right after they agreed that a hidden daughter of Kinzo's was after the fortune, and they wanted to get more information out of Maria, who had met this "Beatrice" before. They all agreed to pretend that they believed in Beatrice to gain Maria's trust. Rosa left early, either because she was tired like usual, or because she didn't like what they were doing to her daughter, and left the key with them. Then, Sayo killed the siblings and snuck the key back into Maria's envelope. When Rosa sees the magic circle on the chapel the next day and hears that the key is missing, she immediately heads to Maria's bag to check the envelope. Obviously, they might have planned to return the key there so that Maria didn't notice they had stolen it.

Rosa never mentioned going into the chapel because that would make her the only suspect, and quite obviously guilty

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

And much of it ceases to be an impossible mystery once everyone dies. Without the testimony of a survivor to say that the chain was still set right before they discovered the bodies, E1T2 becomes "killer used wire cutters to get into the bedroom, then stabbed Eva & Hideyoshi as they slept.". The episode as a whole could be "Jessica killed everyone, threw her cousins into the ocean, then killed herself.".

In the words of Hercule Poirot, why? If this were some small-time everyday murder, yes, people might accept a solution like that, but this is an uber-rich family that all gets killed on the same day, and furthermore, it's a real life "and then there were none" situation. People are going to look for an answer, and it's hard to imagine any answer that doesn't end with someone committing suicide. But why in the world would someone do that?

Furthermore, thanks to the letter, there exists an eyewitness account of the whole thing made by one of the victims just before her death. Why would that person lie? Sure you may suspect a lie, but, in stories, the message in a bottle method is often used either by victims calling for help or by criminals confessing. Who ever heard of someone killing a dozen people just to send out a message bottle and make it look like the whole thing was done magically?

And on top of that, the discovery of Kuwadorian's library made Rokkenjima a symbol of ancient knowledge and magic, adding even more strength to the theory that something supernatural had happened there.

@Jan-poo:

Spoiler for size:

@Chrono
You have bizarre interpretation of the final request of the message in the bottles. The way it's worded doesn't sound like a challenge at all but like a sincere request. It's not like she says "try to find another explanation if you can", she says "please find the truth that's my only wish"
So I don't agree with that. It doesn't matter how much you try to rationalize it, evidence is against you.

Jan-poo, you're only making me more certain that my theory is correct. I know a perfect example of a certain author who used those exact same words to challenge his readers to find the truth. Obviously, Ryuukishi in Onikakushi. The evidence is very much on my side here.

As for the second issue, even if Beatrice knows the true meaning of the epitaph that's no reason to make it know to the others. The double meaning you mention works for persons that already believe in magic. But for those who have magitoxin it is just counterproductive. Give to someone who doesn't believe in magic a magical explanation and a realistic explanation for the same event, and they'll dismiss the magical one as a lie without a second thought.
If Beatrice doesn't realize that, then she's stupid. But I don't think she is.

Exactly, which is why Beatrice does want to win the game. If they can solve the epitaph, she loses, and Battler won't end up believing in witches in the real world. However, everyone will still end up in the Golden Land, where all the dead will be revived and her lost love will be found. Yes, she's taking a risk, but that doesn't make her stupid.

[Judoh]

@chronotrig: The only way I see you getting around the reds in episode 5 about Beatrice's motive to kill people is if her motive for killing is someone else's motive.

# This child has nothing to gain from having someone solve the epitaph.
# The gold of the Golden Land belongs to this child. She had absolutely no need to make you find it for her or to snatch it away herself.
# Whether the epitaph's riddle is solved or not, this child stands nothing to gain at all.
# Regardless of whether the epitaph is solved or not, Beato has nothing to gain.
# Battler-kun is not the culprit.
# Battler-kun didn't kill anyone.
# This can be said of all games.
# Her goal is not to make someone experience fear.
# And it isn't to have revenge on someone either.
# Beato never committed murder for the sake of pleasure.


I only see two solutions for this.

tho most obvious

1. The motive for Beatrice to kill is love hence the line: "without love it cannot be seen"

But this only makes sense in a corny way and I don't think it's a real motive

or the most probable

2. Beatrice is a pawn. The real mastermind orders Beatrice to kill people.

So Battler can't kill anyone, but he can order other people to kill people.

Or any other person orders her to do it. If you just assume she's a pawn rather than somebody who has it all planned out I can see it working. But since her motive isn't money, revenge, or the epitaph I can't see her as a mastermind. The only motives for Beatrice possible now are love or somebody else's motive.

[Kitsu]

The charm was hanging from the doorknob, right? It's pretty easy to imagine that you'd notice something hanging from a doorknob when you open the door. It would probably swing a bit and make some sort of sound as it hit the door. She couldn't have killed both Eva and Hideyoshi if Natsuhi was to be the sixth victim, and I doubt she'd try sneaking into their room and killing one of them without the other noticing.

She couldn't kill Natsuhi because she's trying to convince Battler that magic is real. Battler wouldn't know that she'd tricked Natsuhi to walk outside the room. He'd just see that Natsuhi's little charm hadn't done her any good, assuming Jessica brought up the subject sometime.

And why didn't she just put it on the nightstand? No one beside Natsuhi knew that it was hung from within. She could have just put it there and everyone would have thought Natsuhi didn't take it serious and put it somewhere else.
Sayo is smart enough to plan a giant massmurder but can't even figure such a little trick?

[Aethos]

Originally Posted by Kitsu

It's because Shannon =/= Sayo in this theory.
The persona Shannon, as well as Kanon in this case (and Beatrice), are 'made-up'. Sayo acts as those three personalitys and creates the illusions that they exist. Maybe they are indeed alive in her head and she believes if she acts as Kanon, Kanon really exists but well...
Anyway Shannon loves indeed George, Kanon loves Jessica etc. They are different from "Sayo"

I... think that's going overboard. I mean no offense or anything. I thought Shikanon was a pretty out there theory but this is even more out there.

Not saying you're the one who came up with it though.

[chronotrig]

@Judoh:

Umm, you haven't actually disproved my theory here. I'll confess that my translation for some of those lines isn't perfect though. It's not "Beatrice has nothing to gain no matter what, even if the epitaph is solved", it's more like "there's nothing in particular that Beatrice gets by having the epitaph solved that she wouldn't get otherwise/doesn't already have". So my theory stands.

@Kitsu:

And why didn't she just put it on the nightstand? No one beside Natsuhi knew that it was hung from within. She could have just put it there and everyone would have thought Natsuhi didn't take it serious and put it somewhere else.
Sayo is smart enough to plan a giant massmurder but can't even figure such a little trick?

Jessica specifically told Natsuhi that the charm should be hung on her door, and Natsuhi seemed serious about doing it. Both a touching moment, and the last time Jessica saw her mother. There was a fair chance that Jessica would notice it was gone and point that out, which would make Battler less likely to believe in magic. Meanwhile, the "fact" that Beatrice was unable to enter a sealed room would make Battler more likely to believe in magic.

Also, it's likely that the Beatrice personality must follow the rules of magic regarding this charm. As we see in EP2, "Beatrice" grabs the doorknob of Kinzo's study and looks like she's gotten burned. I'd imagine that, if Sayo as Beatrice realized that the charm was hanging there, she'd freak out and get out of the way as soon as possible as though she'd put her hand on a hot stove. The red marks on the door might have been a way to atone for that mistake, or it might just have been to make it clear to Battler that Natsuhi was supposed to have died if not for the charm.

[Aethos]

Meh I would like to still think that everything in Umineko is the Meta World. It's all in the head of Kinzo who's in a coma. Meta Battler is just his younger self which is why his older self doesn't exist as anything other than a corpse. Meta Battler represents Kinzo's will to live. Beatrice represents the disease taking Kinzo's life as well as his past love and wants to lead him into death so they can be reunited, or it could be said that Kinzo is dead but is refusing to believe it and Beatrice is just trying to show him that he is in fact dead.

Nobody was ever killed or murdered. It was all the dreams of a man who is on his last leg of life but still wants to hold on. In fact if my theory is right then I bet in the real world it's still the morning of October 4th, or whenever the day Kinzo died.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

@Judoh:

Umm, you haven't actually disproved my theory here. I'll confess that my translation for some of those lines isn't perfect though. It's not "Beatrice has nothing to gain no matter what, even if the epitaph is solved", it's more like "there's nothing in particular that Beatrice gets by having the epitaph solved that she wouldn't get otherwise/doesn't already have". So my theory stands.

Uh... no you just rephrased the same sentence in a different way. It still means the same thing....

It still says she doesn't gain anything from the epitaph being solved. And that isn't the only red that's a problem. The reds that are a problem for you are All of those reds saying Beatrice doesn't murder because of X.

It basically says that Beatrice doesn't kill for this, this, this, this, and this. And anything not addressed can be a motive. I pointed out the only ways I can see it possible for the person who represents Beatrice on the gameboard to murder people.

And it's not to disprove your theory. I'm just saying that I don't see many ways currently for her to be a mastermind AND a murderer when there are so few motives left after that bunch of reds. So the two things I mentioned are ways for her to murder people, but with those reds I don't see any way for her to murder people and to still be the person planning the murders out.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Uh... no you just rephrased the same sentence in a different way. It still means the same thing....

It still says she doesn't gain anything from the epitaph being solved. And that isn't the only red that's a problem. The reds that are a problem for you are All of those reds saying Beatrice doesn't murder because of X.

No, it doesn't. It says that she doesn't have anything to gain more from the epitaph being solved than if the epitaph is not solved. If the epitaph is solved, they reach the tenth twilight. If the epitaph is not solved, they reach the tenth twilight. Yes, Battler might be less likely to believe in the witch if the epitaph is solved earlier on in the ceremony, but everyone will end up in the Golden Land anyways.

I don't think any of the other reds deny the possibility that Beatrice committed the murders to complete a ceremony. If one does, you'll have to let me know which one.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

I don't think any of the other reds deny the possibility that Beatrice committed the murders to complete a ceremony. If one does, you'll have to let me know which one.

Okay then. I guess none of the reds deny that. All I need to know is what the ceremony is really used for then. If she's Beatrice what does she gain from reviving Beatrice? Or is it just a show to get Battler to beleive in magic?

If it's just a show for Battler though the ceremony doesn't serve much of a purpose. Unless her logic is like a cat who kills a mouse and brings it to you as a present.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Okay then. I guess none of the reds deny that. All I need to know is what the ceremony is really used for then. If she's Beatrice what does she gain from reviving Beatrice? Or is it just a show to get Battler to beleive in magic?

I've mentioned this a few times, but she wants "the lost love" between her and Battler that the epitaph promises. She might also believe that love between furniture and humans is possible in the Golden Land, which means that the love Kanon and Shannon feel will also be granted at the same time. The part about reviving Beatrice probably means reviving her fully, which is what Kinzo's goal was for her all along. Remember how Beatrice is sometimes described as a ghost flitting around while scheming up her own resurrection ceremony, at the end of which, she will presumably regain her magical powers.