Hayate no Gotoku manga (raw discussion only)

[Mentar]

Well, at least you DO realize that there WAS a change.

Let me ask you something: Let's say your daughter is a hefty girl and announces that she isn't going to eat chocolate cake anymore. And indeed, you see her passing the bakery for a while. During the exams she's stressed out and just can't take it anymore, so she goes to the bakery, gets one and eats it.

Are you going to praise her for keeping her diet?

Oh, before I forget: Are you an American?

[Used Can]

1. Your example is completely unrelated. In fact, it's a terrible analogy. Please, let us be rational here, and not argue for the sake of arguing. Anyway, I think a better example would be if my daughter was going through some tough situation, but she didn't tell me anything in order not to burden me, so that I could be at ease.

Would I be angry if, at some point, my daughter felt she couldn't keep up with her burden, and sought for my help? Fuck no, in fact, I'd b angry because she didn't seek for my help before.

2. Whilst I'm certainly from the American continent, I'm not from the USA nor do I live there. I'm South American.

[Game8910]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Let me ask you something: Let's say your daughter is a hefty girl and announces that she isn't going to eat chocolate cake anymore. And indeed, you see her passing the bakery for a while. During the exams she's stressed out and just can't take it anymore, so she goes to the bakery, gets one and eats it.

Are you going to praise her for keeping her diet?

it depends on what is causing he stress, if she is stressed because of her exams and feels like having a cake is the only way she can calm down then there is no problem AT ALL in breaking the vow THIS ONCE. If she were to continue after that then we could start talking.

If she was stressed because she wasnt eating cake and then gave in because she couldnt handle her need for cake then it would be a different scenario.

Also I agree with zod that there is a difference between want Athena WANTED and what she was GOING TO DO. The quote you posted shows what Athena had CHOSEN TO BELIEVE about being with Hayate, at the very end she could no longer keep her act and truly WISHED he could save her, so she did change her mind in that regard in the end. But that does not mean that her dedication in trying to destroy herself with Midas was gone...right before she was saved, her mindset was something along the lines of "Im going to destroy myself, but I really wish Hayate could save me". Also remember that in the real timeline that entire scene must have happened in a matter of a few minutes (less than 5 IMO)...so for all we know Athena could've been trying to destroy herself, we dont really know how long a self destruction spell really takes to prepare so speculating that she gave up on destroying herself is silly from the beginning.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Oh, before I forget: Are you an American?

This is completely irrelevant to everything, being american changes nothing...not all americans have the same set of beliefs and values so trying to question people's beliefs based on their nationality is pretty inaccurate.
PS: I live in Canada, but was born and raised in Peru (South America) since I was 12. I am now 20

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Used Can

1. Your example is completely unrelated. In fact, it's a terrible analogy. Please, let us be rational here, and not argue for the sake of arguing.

And why is it a "terrible analogy"? Except for that you dislike its result? What I am pointing out and what you are desperately trying to ignore is that there is a difference between announcing/intending something and actually DOING it. I found it very puzzling that the mere declaration of wanting to sacrifice herself was hailed and praised, and then the fact that she didn't do it COMPLETELY IGNORED.

A genuine, good intention in itself is laudable. A genuine attempt to fulfill it, even more. But it is NOT on the same level as _doing_ it. And if you CHANGE YOUR MIND because you don't want to do it after all, we should tone down the praise on the mere good intention significantly. You should be honest enough to do so.

Completed Good Deed >> Tried and failed Good Intention. Period.

Anyway, I think a better example would be if my daughter was going through some tough situation, but she didn't tell me anything in order not to burden me, so that I could be at ease.

Would I be angry if, at some point, my daughter felt she couldn't keep up with her burden, and sought for my help? Fuck no, in fact, I'd b angry because she didn't seek for my help before.

This is a pretty bad analogy for your position, because it would mean that we should be angry at Athena for her sacrifice idea. I don't quite recall you like that.

So, to sum it up, before tempers flare to the heaven again. My position.

1) I believe that Athena genuinely thought that sacrificing herself to save others was the right thing to do

2) Personally I'm not convinced that Athena's inner dialog was part of her "sacrifice to save the others" activity (I think she dropped it when she saw the fight ongoing), but for the sake of argument, let's stipulate that she was still doing it

3) It's evident beyond reasonable doubt that she CHANGED HER MIND. She was NOT able to proceed, because her longing for Hayate was too big. That's why she called out to him.

4) Deciding against dying is hardly grounds for criticizing her. It's human. But at the same time, let's tone down the sacrifice worship some. She is no martyr.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Game8910

Also remember that in the real timeline that entire scene must have happened in a matter of a few minutes (less than 5 IMO)...so for all we know Athena could've been trying to destroy herself, we dont really know how long a self destruction spell really takes to prepare so speculating that she gave up on destroying herself is silly from the beginning.

Okay, I think I'm done here. You guys are really something with your imaginative power. So I'll leave you with your goddess who manages to continue sacrificing herself while at the same time changing her mind to be with Hayate. But then, she didn't REALLY change her mind because _honestly_ she wanted to be saved by Hayate all time long. But yea, her intention to sacrifice herself was fully genuine too. All at the same time.

Sorry, I can't compete with that ... you win.

[zodanhko]

It's absurd to state someone wanting to make a genuine sacrifice. If you wanted/desired to do it, then it won't be a sacrifice. Saying things like I'm happy to die for you. My wish is to die and leave you. That's bullshit. That's delusional unless you are not in your right mind.

I don't have a problem saying Athena didn't want to die, that she wanted to be saved, that she wanted to be by Hayate's side from the beginning for the last 10 years which was the thoughts she couldn't communicate to him due to their circumstances. However, I also have no problem saying she was willing and will willing to sacrifice herself for Hayate's sake at any given moment.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Mentar

A genuine, good intention in itself is laudable. A genuine attempt to fulfill it, even more. But it is NOT on the same level as _doing_ it. And if you CHANGE YOUR MIND because you don't want to do it after all, we should tone down the praise on the mere good intention significantly. You should be honest enough to do so.

I think this is where we keep on getting stuck.

I don't think Athena changed her mind. From the moment she told Hayate that she was going to sacrifice herself and that would give him a chance to save Isumi, she wanted to be saved by him. She just didn't believe that it was possible, and thus started the process to die.

What was the correct thing to do in this situation? When Hayate came to save her, should she have told him "no, even though you've found a better way, I said I was going to die, so that's what I'll do!" When Midas was taking over her body when he confronted her the first time, and she tried to warn him away before Midas tried to get the stone, what else could she have done? Overpowering Midas at this point wasn't really an option. If a bunch of monsters suddenly grabbed Hinagiku before she had taken off to save Hayate and Athena, would you have blamed her for not going to save them even though she said she would?

EDIT:

Also, as far as "call my name" goes, that's far more important than "save me." Back in the EotW arc, the reason Athena was so focused on Hayate calling her was because she had been alone in the Royal Garden for so long that she had forgotten what it sounded like to have someone say her name. She had been alone for that long. Begging him to call her name isn't the same as begging him to save her, it's her begging Hayate to remind her that she wasn't alone, like he had back then. Even though she left RG ten years ago, her heart never left.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by musouka

I think this is where we keep on getting stuck.

I don't think Athena changed her mind. From the moment she told Hayate that she was going to sacrifice herself and that would give him a chance to save Isumi, she wanted to be saved by him. She just didn't believe that it was possible, and thus started the process to die.

Well, I won't re-quote myself a third time, just to have it completely ignored by you a third time, too. It boggles my mind. Athena had a clear change of mind in her inner dialogue. Her realization was that she didn't want to give up on him. She didn't want to die. She wanted to live with him. That's why she called.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Well, I won't re-quote myself a third time, just to have it completely ignored by you a third time, too. It boggles my mind. Athena had a clear change of mind in her inner dialogue. Her realization was that she didn't want to give up on him. She didn't want to die. She wanted to live with him. That's why she called.

Yes, I agree with you. She didn't want to die. She wanted to live. She lied to herself and said she was okay with watching him from afar, but that wasn't true. She wanted to be with him.

It's exactly what Hina went through when she figured out her own feelings and told Ayumu. She agonized over not telling her for a long time, and tried to convince herself to do what she originally promised, but in the end, couldn't keep it up and admitted her weakness to her friend.

But in this case, Athena wasn't betraying anyone. She didn't know that Hina liked Hayate. She hadn't offered to help her win him. The only change was Athena admitting it to herself.

So I don't understand why it's okay for Hinagiku to do this and "betray" her promise to a friend, but Athena must be castigated for "betraying" a promise made to no one but herself.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by musouka

Yes, I agree with you. She didn't want to die. She wanted to live. She lied to herself and said she was okay with watching him from afar, but that wasn't true. She wanted to be with him.

AAA-MAAAAAAA-ZIIINNG!!!!!

\O/

Did we really need that many iterations for that?

It's exactly what Hina went through when she figured out her own feelings and told Ayumu. She agonized over not telling her for a long time, and tried to convince herself to do what she originally promised, but in the end, couldn't keep it up and admitted her weakness to her friend.

But in this case, Athena wasn't betraying anyone. She didn't know that Hina liked Hayate. She hadn't offered to help her win him. The only change was Athena admitting it to herself.

So I don't understand why it's okay for Hinagiku to do this and "betray" her promise to a friend, but Athena must be castigated for "betraying" a promise made to no one but herself.

I'm not sure what makes you think that I would absolve Hina and accuse Athena, I don't think I ever argued in this direction, so I'll file that under "counterattack". In fact, I like your analogy, I agree that there's a certain similarity in realizing something you didn't realize before.

[zodanhko]

Originally Posted by Mentar

I'm not sure what makes you think that I would absolve Hina and accuse Athena,

Well, something like Athena can only "talk to talk" because she doesn't really want to die, she just wanted to be with Hayate, while Hina can "walk to walk" when she tried to save Athena and Hayate. No, of course, you didn't forget about the promise which Hina took back from Ayumu and wanted to be with Hayate for herself. That doesn't matter, Hina already reflected on herself.
Edit: It's note to mention that you also said, "Athena would never have the gut to do it" (how Hina told Ayumu that she wanted Hayate for herself) ironically. Sounded like you were proud of what Hina did. Well, I was amazed by Hina too.

[arand017]

...So next weeks chapter according to Hata's blog, will be called 『THE END OF THE WORLD : FINAL』, with the story leading 10 years into the current time line, also, Hata said it was difficult to draw hayate's brother because of the shading in his eyes

[telamont]

Originally Posted by Mentar

AAA-MAAAAAAA-ZIIINNG!!!!!

\O/

Did we really need that many iterations for that?

Mentar, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't we straying from the main point? I thought the main point of the argument was whether Athena would have gone through with her sacrifice or not, and not whether or not she wanted to die?

See, I think this is where our viewpoints diverge. While we agree that Athena did not want to die, we interpret the line "I want to live. I want you to call my name once again. Hayate. Hayate... HAYATE" differently.

Mentar, you seem to interpret it as Athena regretting her decision and deciding to back out of her sacrifice. That's fine. Since Hayate ended up defeating Midas and saving her before she could sacrifice herself (or not ), I have nothing other than my own speculation of what would have happened vs yours... an argument which will go nowhere fast

But the opposing viewpoint (well, mine at least) is that that line was actually Athena resigning herself to death. She did not want to die, but to protect Hayate from Midas, she would have. That line was simply her finally letting out everything she had bottled up inside herself before dying, complete with a "life flashing before her eyes" experience. Her final will and testament so to speak. For me, it is these very regrets, this desire to live one which makes her sacrifice (well, her aborted attempt anyway, Hayate ended up saving everybody ) noble. After all, if she had no attachment to her own life, her attempted sacrifice wouldn't have been much of one would it?

Looking forward to an interesting discussion.

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by arand017

...So next weeks chapter according to Hata's blog, will be called 『THE END OF THE WORLD : FINAL』, with the story leading 10 years into the current time line,

Yes, so we should be getting Hayate's Bro Vs. Midas next week

Originally Posted by arand017

also, Hata said it was difficult to draw hayate's brother because of the shading in his eyes

One of the many difficulties working with masked hero's

[Wolfnagi]

"Already dizzy with the wall of post here"
Ouch.........
anyway, we going to have Hayate bro vs Midas,
so anyone thinks that Yukariko might get in at that time??
and wish Rah-chan was here.........

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by telamont

Mentar, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't we straying from the main point? I thought the main point of the argument was whether Athena would have gone through with her sacrifice or not, and not whether or not she wanted to die?

I don't see how these points can be kept apart. At least, you can not live and sacrifice yourself at the same time.

Mentar, you seem to interpret it as Athena regretting her decision and deciding to back out of her sacrifice. That's fine.

Yes. This is the only logical conclusion I can reach. Which, by the way, is one of the few remaining ways how the story can "sell" Athena to me - as the girl who wants/needs Hayate the most.

But the opposing viewpoint (well, mine at least) is that that line was actually Athena resigning herself to death. She did not want to die, but to protect Hayate from Midas, she would have.

That's not enough, and not plausible in my book. Let's take aside that I fail to see any indication so far (other than her mere announcement) that she is actively trying to intervene, the key is that she was announcing an _activity_ (unsummoning Midas and herself), not a passive form like "I'll let Midas eat me". That's what _Midas_ tried to do, and we could see the progress of him taking Athena into himself.

I also consider the theory floated by Musouka unconvincing that she was in the active process of unsummoning them and only kind of thinking around. Again, no drawing or text in the panel supports this IMHO. And it also undermines the dramatic reversal which was shown in Athena's behavior.

That line was simply her finally letting out everything she had bottled up inside herself before dying, complete with a "life flashing before her eyes" experience. Her final will and testament so to speak.

She is trying to actively convince herself that it's okay that he didn't call her name anymore, that he found happiness elsewhere. Then she hesitates until eventually she realizes that she is NOT okay. That she DOES want to hear him call her. This is NOT the reaction of someone willing to sacrifice herself anymore, this is the famous trademark "Damsel in distress caling for Hayate to save her and he does" scene, and, in my opinion, by far the most important scene regarding the Athena-Hayate relationship. The parallel to the Nagi/Hina calls can't be denied, and there the calls also were "RESCUE ME!" and not "OMIGOSH, I'M DYING, IT'S A TRAGEDY!"

I'm puzzled why you among several others are also so hung up to argue against the obvious, against what's shown in the panels. In the end, Athena chose not to save Hayate and the others (by unsummoning herself and Midas), her longing for him was too much. So she wished to be saved by Hayate instead. To live, WITH him. And yet again, Hayate is the knight in shining armor and delivers: Athena is saved.

Everything here is entirely consistent with Athena's character and prior actions. And I don't get why especially Athena-shippers would argue against this, because it further elevates Athena's position. However, it would require them to knock down their glorification/worship a peg, and I guess that's the reason why it's so hard to accept.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Mentar

And why is it a "terrible analogy"? Except for that you dislike its result? What I am pointing out and what you are desperately trying to ignore is that there is a difference between announcing/intending something and actually DOING it. I found it very puzzling that the mere declaration of wanting to sacrifice herself was hailed and praised, and then the fact that she didn't do it COMPLETELY IGNORED.

It's a terrible analogy because the context of both situations are completely different. On one situation you have a girl who had decided to sacrifice her life, so that others could live at ease, and in the other one you have a girl who decided to go on a diet and couldn't keep up with it. Whilst the result in both situations is the same - i.e. both girls couldn't keep up with their original purpose - their situations are completely different. Athena had led quite a difficult life, she was about to let herself die, but at the end she wanted to grasp some happiness. On the other scenario, you had a girl who simply couldn't resist the temptation to eat a cake (naturally, there could be other reasons as Game8910 pointed out).

You cannot analyse, and even less compare situations while leaving the context aside. Otherwise, the only thing you'll do is a shallow analysis, which will only lead you to a flawed conclusion. That's not a proper raise a point, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Mentar

A genuine, good intention in itself is laudable. A genuine attempt to fulfill it, even more. But it is NOT on the same level as _doing_ it. And if you CHANGE YOUR MIND because you don't want to do it after all, we should tone down the praise on the mere good intention significantly. You should be honest enough to do so.

Completed Good Deed >> Tried and failed Good Intention. Period.

The problem here is that it was more than just an intention, she actually committed herself to that idea for quite some time (i.e. 6 months to 1 year - depending on when she saw Hayate again). It's quite similar to what Hina did back in the day with Ayumu, by letting her "keep" Hayate. In the end Hina couldn't bear that, and decided to tell Ayumu she too loved Hayate. Does that mean Hina didn't do a good deed? No, she actually kept her feelings inside for quite some time.

Sure, none of them are altruists, but that doesn't mean these deeds have no value, or that they should be regarded as just good intentions. Both deeds can be commended.

Originally Posted by Mentar

This is a pretty bad analogy for your position, because it would mean that we should be angry at Athena for her sacrifice idea. I don't quite recall you like that.

I don't see why anyone should be angry at Athena based on that analogy, to be honest.

Originally Posted by Mentar

4) Deciding against dying is hardly grounds for criticizing her. It's human. But at the same time, let's tone down the sacrifice worship some. She is no martyr.

I don't think anyone has been worshipping her as a martyr. However, I do believe her actions are highly commendable.

[zodanhko]

Originally Posted by Mentar

That's not enough, and not plausible in my book. Let's take aside that I fail to see any indication so far (other than her mere announcement) that she is actively trying to intervene, the key is that she was announcing an _activity_ (unsummoning Midas and herself), not a passive form like "I'll let Midas eat me". That's what _Midas_ tried to do, and we could see the progress of him taking Athena into himself.

I also consider the theory floated by Musouka unconvincing that she was in the active process of unsummoning them and only kind of thinking around. Again, no drawing or text in the panel supports this IMHO. And it also undermines the dramatic reversal which was shown in Athena's behavior.

Like Game mentioned before, it won't take that long for someone to think all of those flashbacks as Athena did, especially if someone who's about to die.
Hell, her thoughts were not even that long. She wasn't even have that much power left with Midas constantly sucking it, and everytime someone try to use their power to destroy themselves, it WILL take time.

Like Musouka mentioned, Athena's body was glowing as though she was using some kinds of power. Moreover, her thoughts were fill with regrets like someone who's about to die. That was pretty much a great indication.

But I guess it's depending on who's side your're on to see this.

Originally Posted by Mentar

She is trying to actively convince herself that it's okay that he didn't call her name anymore, that he found happiness elsewhere. Then she hesitates until eventually she realizes that she is NOT okay. That she DOES want to hear him call her. This is NOT the reaction of someone willing to sacrifice herself anymore, this is the famous trademark "Damsel in distress caling for Hayate to save her and he does" scene, and, in my opinion, by far the most important scene regarding the Athena-Hayate relationship. The parallel to the Nagi/Hina calls can't be denied, and there the calls also were "RESCUE ME!" and not "OMIGOSH, I'M DYING, IT'S A TRAGEDY!"

I'm puzzled why you among several others are also so hung up to argue against the obvious, against what's shown in the panels. In the end, Athena chose not to save Hayate and the others (by unsummoning herself and Midas), her longing for him was too much. So she wished to be saved by Hayate instead. To live, WITH him. And yet again, Hayate is the knight in shining armor and delivers: Athena is saved.

She was actively trying to convince herself that she'd be fine without him although she has always been wanting to be by his side. During the process of eliminating herself, she was at her limit. She finally broken down. Yes, she finally realized that she wasn't fine without him, she finally realized what she always desired. She regretted that she couldn't do anything that can change it when she sheds her tears. Yes, she wishes to hear him called her name, to give her the warmth which she always desired---calling her name was probably the most important thing to Athena. That could be the last thing she wanted to hear from him before she disappear.

Honestly, I don't really mind your thinking about Athena not sacrificing herself since I'd probably giggle at your angst of wanting Athena to disappear.

But saying ,"In the end, Athena chose not to save Hayate and the others (by unsummoning herself and Midas)" fill with such negative connotations that I'd have to disagree. If it comes to saving Hayate, Athena did be the first person to be there. The phrase "chose not to save Hayate" I think is inaccurate and HIGHLY against EVERYTHING she has been through for him and did for him. I think "Athena chose to believe in Hayate" instead of "chose not to save him" is more appropriate even for you, and your side of the argument.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by zodanhko

Honestly, I don't really mind your thinking about Athena not sacrificing herself since I'd probably giggle at your angst of wanting Athena to disappear.

Nah, it's not angst. It's kind of a "don't just surrender to the nutcases" stubborness, because a major part of me simply forced me to point out to you that you CANNOT want to sacrifice yourself and live at the same time. It's not possible. It is _mutually exclusive_. And I thought that anyone with enough brains to post on the internet should be able to realize this. I was wrong.

My position is clear. In the end, she decided to abandon the "sacrifice" plan and wanted Hayate to rescue her instead. So she yelled the classic "HAYATEEE!" save me line. If this admission is too much for you, there's no point in discussing things any further.

But saying ,"In the end, Athena chose not to save Hayate and the others (by unsummoning herself and Midas)" fill with such negative connotations that I'd have to disagree. If it comes to saving Hayate, Athena did be the first person to be there.

This is so much "there cannot be what there must not be" in this sequence that it's pointless to try any longer. Why let reality get in your way?

After all, what's a hero against a _goddess_?

I rest my case.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Mentar

you CANNOT want to sacrifice yourself and live at the same time

I believe that the readiness to die and the desire to die are different things. You may be ready to sacrifice yourself for others, but that doesn't mean you don't want to live. No one wants to die, unless they're suicidal or devoid of feelings. Additionally, it wasn't as if Athena was going to say "fuck you guys, I'm outta here". Had Hayate not saved her, she'd quite likely have let herself die.

This reminds be of the tale of Jesus when he was about to die, and he showed fear and asked God why he had abandoned him. Sure, Jesus did die at the end, but the fact remains that he showed fear (not once but twice: before the crucifixion, and during that time), and wanted to be saved. Mind you, I'm not Christian, but even if we just take this as a story, that's a good example of a character who was willing to sacrifice himself for others, yet showed fear and the desire to live at some point.

In addition to all of this, I believe we should take into account the whole context of this situation. Athena was willing to leave Hayate live his own life without interfering, and she was also willing to disappear for his sake. However, no matter how many times she tried to push him away, Hayate was persistent and he always went back to her. Moreover, many of the things he said simply got her, like him saying he believed she had done many things for him or that he was happy, but the biggest impact was when he thanked her for having taken care of him, which was a major deal for Athena, since she had spent 10 years blaming herself for his misfortune. So, having heard that must have lifted a big burden from her, and in addition to that, it must have given her some hope, I believe.

Now, let's take into account several things about her, like the tough life which she has had to lead (which she may or may not have brought upon herself on her own), her own regrets, and the fact she was sacrificing her own happiness and life. Let's add to the picture the fact that Hayate kept coming back to her every single time she tried to keep him away, and even more so the fact that he made her realise he's never blamed her for anything and that he's always appreciated what she's done for him. At this point, I think it was only natural for her to become afraid of disappearing, and to want to reach some happiness, when her happiness (i.e. Hayate) refused to go away and was so close.

Sure, the fact remains she didn't sacrifice herself, because Hayate saved her. However, that doesn't mean she wouldn't have done so, had Hayate been unable to save her. In the end, as you said, Athena is human too, and she didn't want to die, but that doesn't mean she wasn't ready to do it, had she needed to. But, anyway, if you want to believe the opposite, I won't try to force you to think otherwise.